Obese people are typically those with a bad diet eating junk food. Nothing to do with med diet.
Most of those obese people are those living in large towns and cities. Unfortunately they don't follow a proper diet because they are becoming poorer and poorer. If they can't afford the food for a proper med diet they can't be vegan as well because it would be even more expensive....No philosophical stuff that's the real world!
Ok, but the link between better standards and higher prices is worth developing. Let's take a practical example. The label "porc de Vendée" in France is probably one of the best ones for free range pigs when it comes to animal welfare. They produce about 100.000 pigs/year, out of 25 millions pigs produced in France/year. Production cost for that label is 1.6€/kg, sale cost 1.83€/kg. The industry average cost is about 1.3€/kg. And these days, your average pig sometimes sell at loss...
A 25% increase in the raw product cost is not going to trigger the massive reduction in meat consumption we need (from an environmental point of view, I've personally no ethical problems with meat eating per se).
The more interesting question is how many pigs can we actually produce with higher standards ? The higher prices might come from scarcity rather than higher production costs.
I don't think we disagree on that, but I question dismissing American pediatricians quite so high-handedly (on the basis that Italy is "different world") when Italy is virtually the worst in the world on an important measure of childhood nutrition.
I was aware of the small number of well-publicized cases of vegan malnutrition in Europe, but I have to wonder why it is that those cases received so much attention while no one (to my knowledge) has proposed prosecuting the parents of obese omnivorous kids who get sick from associated conditions.
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That's an interesting case, thanks!
I worry that Wikipedia's description of the process ends with "and then they're stuck in a truck and driven off to the abattoir". Commercial slaughter can be very traumatic / cruel too, no matter how good an animal's life up to that point (case in point, many of these animals bore 'good life' marques: France’s abattoirs to be inspected for animal cruelty after shock film). Regulations are only as good as their enforcement.
My French is crap so I'm reading via Google Translate, but you might well be right about scarcity. The land requirement in that Porc de Vendée standard seems like it'd be a challenge to ramping up production!
Yes, I think you're right, it requires some care. On the other hand, our biggest problem with child nutrition isn't insufficiency! All children need parents to think carefully about their diets.
Better, I think, all round (save for productivity) to slaughter on farms, harder to normalise and hide cruelty too
I just meant to say that Italian paediatricians have already something to rely on and this is the med diet which has been around there for centuries! No need to re-invent the wheel.
They are and were well-publicized because, regarding nutrition, they are possibly the only ones. Here we are talking about infants in their first 2 years of life. There is no such issue with omnivorous babies. They have no choice but eat what it is given to them.
But that's my point - they aren't the "only ones" at all, generally speaking. There are literally millions of kids in Italy being made unwell by diet. It's statistically impossible that no omnivorous Italian children have died from diseases linked to obesity. But I don't read in the international press of any Italian pols calling for those parents to lose custody or be imprisoned.
There are (literally) millions of vegans in Europe. There are a handful of cases of severe malnutrition. Pointing to this as a major obstacle to going vegan is like pointing to lightning strikes as a major obstacle to going outside.
I said that we live in different countries for a reason. You really have no idea of what Italy has become. There are more serious problems than "what is the best diet". By the way everyone has support for health because it's public and it is your responsibility if you don't take it. If you want to be a vegan and want a plan for your diet you have to pay. If you can't afford it it is your problem. I am not aware of all these children that die or nearly die because they are fat and at some point action is taken. No need to imprison people if nothing serious happens.
I did't said that those malnutrition cases are an obstacle. I just meant to say that the fundamentalism of vegans in Italy is so bad that they are ready to let their babies die rather than give them what they need even when they get advised by paediatricians. That's quite different! That's where one loses custody....
For the rest, I don't know about Europe and really don't care. In Italy vegans represent less than 3% so it is a small minority in my book. Despite this schools offer vegan diet if required. More and more schools actually offer it by default. Restaurants and other food venues are free do what they want. That's democracy! I know several restaurants that have freely chosen not to have a specific vegan menu. Most only have little choice. They have their reasons. It you don't like you don't go. One can always open vegan restaurant if he thinks it's good. No one will stop him....
In my opinion Italy will never be a largely or totally vegan place because food is not seen just like the source for survival. It's also pleasure. That's in our culture. I am quite confident that's not the main point of view case of most countries.....
I did't said that those malnutrition cases are an obstacle. I just meant to say that the fundamentalism of vegans in Italy is so bad that they are ready to let their babies die rather than give them what they need even when they get advised by paediatricians. That's quite different! That's where one loses custody....
For the rest, I don't know about Europe and really don't care. In Italy vegans represent less than 3% so it is a small minority in my book. Despite this schools offer vegan diet if required. More and more schools actually offer it by default. Restaurants and other food venues are free do what they want. That's democracy! I know several restaurants that have freely chosen not to have a specific vegan menu. Most only have little choice. They have their reasons. It you don't like you don't go. One can always open vegan restaurant if he thinks it's good. No one will stop him....
In my opinion Italy will never be a largely or totally vegan place because food is not seen just like the source for survival. It's also pleasure. That's in our culture. I am quite confident that's not the main point of view case of most countries.....
Right. We agree that's a terrible thing to do.
But it's really not happening because they are vegans per se. It's happening because they absolutely refused to pay attention to proper nutrition even when a child become obviously ill (which, at risk of repetition, is also a phenomenon that severely harms non-vegan kids). There is absolutely no problem giving a vegan child adequate nutrition with a modicum of thought. Despite the attention focussed on outliers, hundreds of thousands of vegan parents do it every day without fuss.
And I'm all for food for pleasure; it's a shame if you haven't experienced vegan food presented that way. Too many great meals to count, but I won't ever forget the tasting menu at the late Charlie Trotter's.
It is. Although some countries like the USA have a very scattered identity.
When I was a vegan I use to get that old "you don't like food" or "you don't east for pleasure" thing. People often can't see very far past their own noses.
When I was a vegan I use to get that old "you don't like food" or "you don't east for pleasure" thing. People often can't see very far past their own noses.
It might be, but I don't understand that term.
How would the diet of a "fundamentalist" vegan necessarily differ from that of "non-fundamentalist" vegans in a way that affects child nutrition?
"Fundamentalist" doesn't seem to do any work there, beyond attaching a pejorative connotation.
Yes, but here they're making a sacrifice every night. I mean, when I walk around home at 8 PM there is meat smoke in every street 'cos there are restaurants and everyone, the tourists, wants to eat the "fiorentina", which is a steak 
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Another meaningless excuse/attack since don't omnivores take huge pleasure in the huge variety of vegetables, fruit, nuts etc cooked in a huge number of different ways?
Good point. Any "foodie" omnivore is likely to eat "accidentally vegan" dishes all the time.
I don't know what he meant, it was just a suggestion, and yes the word fundamentalist has attracted negative connotations due to usage/misusage
Hum. I've had really great vegan food. I've some friends who are both great cooks and vegan.
Still, it's only really great when they don't try to emulate traditional food. I've yet to eat a vegan substitute for a meat or fish based dish that is as good as the real stuff it's trying to copy. Vegan pastries are almost always disappointing when they copy dairy based pastries. And don't get me started on the pseudo cheese.
There is a kind of uncanny valley when vegan food tries to copy traditional food and recipes and it really damages the perception of vegan food.
Still, it's only really great when they don't try to emulate traditional food. I've yet to eat a vegan substitute for a meat or fish based dish that is as good as the real stuff it's trying to copy. Vegan pastries are almost always disappointing when they copy dairy based pastries. And don't get me started on the pseudo cheese.
There is a kind of uncanny valley when vegan food tries to copy traditional food and recipes and it really damages the perception of vegan food.
Identity for sure. Not sure if it is really seen as source of pleasure. Everyday.
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