I have been using these speakers for some time, at one point four resistors decided to self destruct. I tried all the values that Ray Vandersteen recommended but did not like sound. I sent them off to a guy who "fixed" them for me but was still unhappy with the result, I am still unhappy as there is terrible sibilance and there is a lot of stuff I just cannot listen to it is that bad. I have tried altering resistor values but to no avail.I have also changed out the metal dome tweeter for a soft dome Audax TWO-25-AO but this has not cured the problem. Something in the circuit is interfering with the treble but I am at the end of the road, does anyone have any suggestions please?
are you sure the problem is speakers? have you tried other speakers?
what if it is distortion in the preamp or amp?
btw, resistor burning indicate sever abuse, clipping?
what if it is distortion in the preamp or amp?
btw, resistor burning indicate sever abuse, clipping?
Hi,
Sibilance may be for a lot of reasons, source, amp, speakers, room..
If speakers it's often due to 6.5 k hz to 8 k hz range but not only... bump between circa 3 k hz to 4 k hz may cause that with some ears...
Are the 4 burned resistor on the filter ection of the treble unit ?
What wattage an type (cement ?)
What you could do is first swapping the treble filter resitors with the same values but cement type, if sibilance still here and you checked what Adason advised and hopping the treble unit has no damage cause too much abuse :
then swap the capacitor in serie with the treble by mylar type : it can helps sometime if the problem is light on the fhz curve in the highs.
If the sibilance still here then try to decrease the tweeter spl by 0.5 dB steps by increasing the serie attenuation resistor.
It may be much more complex like a bump in the last octave then asking more filter revision.
But frankly Vandersteen knos what he knows and it's certainly not due to the design...
look at the amp, the average dpl you playback, perhaps the source (some device dacs ARE sibilant).
It could be a damaged treble unit cause the amp and/or the spl abuse, you should measure at sweet spot with simple tools first (smartphone with Dayton mic) to have a first idea... But the ideal if you measure is a swept tone measured by a mic : Arta for instance about the soft in sticky section 🙂
just my two cents, more experienced folks may add to this first simple approach.
Sibilance may be for a lot of reasons, source, amp, speakers, room..
If speakers it's often due to 6.5 k hz to 8 k hz range but not only... bump between circa 3 k hz to 4 k hz may cause that with some ears...
Are the 4 burned resistor on the filter ection of the treble unit ?
What wattage an type (cement ?)
What you could do is first swapping the treble filter resitors with the same values but cement type, if sibilance still here and you checked what Adason advised and hopping the treble unit has no damage cause too much abuse :
then swap the capacitor in serie with the treble by mylar type : it can helps sometime if the problem is light on the fhz curve in the highs.
If the sibilance still here then try to decrease the tweeter spl by 0.5 dB steps by increasing the serie attenuation resistor.
It may be much more complex like a bump in the last octave then asking more filter revision.
But frankly Vandersteen knos what he knows and it's certainly not due to the design...
look at the amp, the average dpl you playback, perhaps the source (some device dacs ARE sibilant).
It could be a damaged treble unit cause the amp and/or the spl abuse, you should measure at sweet spot with simple tools first (smartphone with Dayton mic) to have a first idea... But the ideal if you measure is a swept tone measured by a mic : Arta for instance about the soft in sticky section 🙂
just my two cents, more experienced folks may add to this first simple approach.
The first question I have is how did the resistors overheat and fail?
Is it simply that you enjoy cranking it up once in a while?
Nothing wrong with that. What amp are you driving them with, how
many watts?
I have the 2Ci with the soft dome Audax tweeters and I've reverse
engineered them. The 2Ci uses a Peerless poly cone midrange do
yours have the same ones? The mid has ferro fluid and did you
consider that the problem might be with the midrange?
The resistors overheating is a clue that they were driven hard, it is
also possible that the Lpads were overheated.
The crossovers are essentially glued in, just wondering if you got them
out or worked with them in place.
I eventually found that they sound far better with the mid level control
at -2dB and the tweeter set depending on your room and taste. +1 worked
well for me. Certainly try the controls.
Is it simply that you enjoy cranking it up once in a while?
Nothing wrong with that. What amp are you driving them with, how
many watts?
I have the 2Ci with the soft dome Audax tweeters and I've reverse
engineered them. The 2Ci uses a Peerless poly cone midrange do
yours have the same ones? The mid has ferro fluid and did you
consider that the problem might be with the midrange?
The resistors overheating is a clue that they were driven hard, it is
also possible that the Lpads were overheated.
The crossovers are essentially glued in, just wondering if you got them
out or worked with them in place.
I eventually found that they sound far better with the mid level control
at -2dB and the tweeter set depending on your room and taste. +1 worked
well for me. Certainly try the controls.
Vandersteen 2Ce
Hi, Thanks for the replies. I have used different front ends, turntables pre-amps both active and passive. I believe the original resistors were under rated. I was using a 130W ch. SS Musical Fidelity but am now using a 28W (i think) valve amp, Yaqin MC13. I still have the original mid range speakers fitted and have not considered them to be a problem, how would I know as they sound fine? The XO's I removed and made boxes for them to sit behind the speakers and rewired internally with Mundorf cable. There is no way I could set the controls in the + position as this will just make the treble even worse!
I am sorry if it looks like I am not replying to you all but there is a lot to take in in one go so your patience will be appreciated!
Hi, Thanks for the replies. I have used different front ends, turntables pre-amps both active and passive. I believe the original resistors were under rated. I was using a 130W ch. SS Musical Fidelity but am now using a 28W (i think) valve amp, Yaqin MC13. I still have the original mid range speakers fitted and have not considered them to be a problem, how would I know as they sound fine? The XO's I removed and made boxes for them to sit behind the speakers and rewired internally with Mundorf cable. There is no way I could set the controls in the + position as this will just make the treble even worse!
I am sorry if it looks like I am not replying to you all but there is a lot to take in in one go so your patience will be appreciated!
I did also mention trying -2 dB on the mid, have you tried different settings?
I kept mine at 0 dB for probably 10 years, then when I was ready to take them out of
my system tried different settings A/B ed against my new speakers. They sounded
much better with the mid at -2 dB.
You will probably clip a 28 W amp into these speakers and that might cause the
sibilance. If you don't believe it and have a scope try monitoring the amp output
with a scope.
I kept mine at 0 dB for probably 10 years, then when I was ready to take them out of
my system tried different settings A/B ed against my new speakers. They sounded
much better with the mid at -2 dB.
You will probably clip a 28 W amp into these speakers and that might cause the
sibilance. If you don't believe it and have a scope try monitoring the amp output
with a scope.
Can you draw out the schematic for us, showing the burned resistors in the circuit topology?
Any chance of a REW measurement - I realize you wont have a before/after - however it sounds like folks here are capable of identifying such perception from frequency response anomalies.
Many other factors have changed besides the particular resistors; amplifier, cables, orientation / location of the xovers themselves. When within those changes did the offending sound show up?
Tough problem!
Any chance of a REW measurement - I realize you wont have a before/after - however it sounds like folks here are capable of identifying such perception from frequency response anomalies.
Many other factors have changed besides the particular resistors; amplifier, cables, orientation / location of the xovers themselves. When within those changes did the offending sound show up?
Tough problem!
I listened this morning through a different pair of speakers and although there is still an amount of sibilance there it is not as cringe worthy as it is through the Vandersteens. There may be another cause somewhere within the system although this will be quite difficult to trace and I would prefer to concentrate on getting the speakers working fine first!. It is very difficult to say when the problem actually started, it may even have been a gradual thing? Unfortunately the only measuring tools I possess is a DMM. I have changed all the rest of the set up in pursuit of the problem and have more than one CD player, pre-amp, Dac, turntable and power supplies etc. I would add that I have a balanced mains transformer in place also and have a powerful solid state amp which I have tried to no avail.
Hi, I have just changed amps to the Musical Fidelity, set the treble control to 0 and the mid control to -2. I am playing a CD of Brenna Whitaker the "When I'm Gone" track and it does sound much better and at least I can listen now without grinding of the teeth, I will now play some more stuff to see how it goes!
Honor of Vandersteen 2ce is safe...
but better to change amp before fix it or break a driver and give to the speaker brandnew ressitors if burned and R values moved.
Tons of good cheap amps second hand on the www. like Hafler or a good DIY class here with enough current to drive it I assume 🙂
But please divorce the amp from the speaker... they are not made to live together or something to fix on the amp you can find but too late!
but better to change amp before fix it or break a driver and give to the speaker brandnew ressitors if burned and R values moved.
Tons of good cheap amps second hand on the www. like Hafler or a good DIY class here with enough current to drive it I assume 🙂
But please divorce the amp from the speaker... they are not made to live together or something to fix on the amp you can find but too late!
I posted schematics here for the 2Ci crossover that I traced out in 1994:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...design-overview-xo-schematic.html#post6184566
None of the resistor values look hand tweaked as some have claimed, 1, 3.3, 10, 20 look
like very typical values.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...design-overview-xo-schematic.html#post6184566
None of the resistor values look hand tweaked as some have claimed, 1, 3.3, 10, 20 look
like very typical values.
Vandersteen 2Ce
Hi, Thanks for the info I find it most helpful.
My HF unit is an Audax TWO25AO, MF driver (original Vifa?) is unknown but fits the description you gave, it has a "plastic" surround as opposed to rubber the dust cap is more button like, and is fixed into it's own audio tube. LF driver is an Peerless SLS830667.SB driver is also unknown (original). I have attached some pictures they are of the XO when first the resistors burnt out, the second is of the repairs I carried out. I still have the original speakers that were removed, the treble was a problem in the early models and a kit was supplied at some time to change out the tweeter and a couple of resistors to smooth and sweeten the sound. I am not sure why I changed the bass it was a recommendation from somewhere at the time.
Hi, Thanks for the info I find it most helpful.
My HF unit is an Audax TWO25AO, MF driver (original Vifa?) is unknown but fits the description you gave, it has a "plastic" surround as opposed to rubber the dust cap is more button like, and is fixed into it's own audio tube. LF driver is an Peerless SLS830667.SB driver is also unknown (original). I have attached some pictures they are of the XO when first the resistors burnt out, the second is of the repairs I carried out. I still have the original speakers that were removed, the treble was a problem in the early models and a kit was supplied at some time to change out the tweeter and a couple of resistors to smooth and sweeten the sound. I am not sure why I changed the bass it was a recommendation from somewhere at the time.
Attachments
Since the three fried resistors were part of the series path to the midrange and because the midrange has ferro fluid, I would say it is the midrange is the problem. If the ferro fluid got overheated the damping of the midrange highs might now be non-existent which might well explain a peaky upper midrange ie: sibilance.
It seems to me that the resistors were under sized from the start being 2 maybe 3
Watts and since the total resistance is 3.3 ohms they will dissipate a good fraction
of the power into the midrange. The midrange is rated for a lot of power as can be
seen in the spec sheet that I linked.
I would replace each 10 ohm with 1o to 12 Watt types for a total of 30 or more and
they should be raised well above the circuit board so that there is good air flow
around them.
Watts and since the total resistance is 3.3 ohms they will dissipate a good fraction
of the power into the midrange. The midrange is rated for a lot of power as can be
seen in the spec sheet that I linked.
I would replace each 10 ohm with 1o to 12 Watt types for a total of 30 or more and
they should be raised well above the circuit board so that there is good air flow
around them.
Pete, I just noticed that in the pictures you posted of the 2Ce crossover those resistors weren't there and the board was burned a bit.
Granted they are kind of low wattage but why burn now?
The mid's power rating is partially dependent on the ferro fluid.
I still think it's a midrange issue.
Granted they are kind of low wattage but why burn now?
The mid's power rating is partially dependent on the ferro fluid.
I still think it's a midrange issue.
Ever considered that some sibilance may well be on the recording itself?
This is far from unheard of.
I have encountered an extreme case when recording a friends band.
The sibilance was really rather terrible and no amount of EQ or fiddling with mic placement would get rid of it. In the end it turned out to be an interaction between the female singers voice and the drum kits cymbals.
Drastically reducing the amount of cymbal use by the drummer (he was prone to that sort of thing) fixed the problem.
This is far from unheard of.
I have encountered an extreme case when recording a friends band.
The sibilance was really rather terrible and no amount of EQ or fiddling with mic placement would get rid of it. In the end it turned out to be an interaction between the female singers voice and the drum kits cymbals.
Drastically reducing the amount of cymbal use by the drummer (he was prone to that sort of thing) fixed the problem.
Are the deep blue caps marked with arrow and minus are polarised ???? So with tons of DF and ESR to avoid a resistor...probably shunt position!
And the lightblue rebadged Bennic???
Why so much efforts for a filter that would have a flawed design ?
If thetweeter is a diy add and themid has indeed sufferfrom hot summers and overheating...I may ask about a refurbishing to genuine original parts... norhing special with the audax...basic Morel is a possible swap but if the filter has particular impedance correction ...Fs not the same...
Any pictures of the burned resistors ?
.
And the lightblue rebadged Bennic???
Why so much efforts for a filter that would have a flawed design ?
If thetweeter is a diy add and themid has indeed sufferfrom hot summers and overheating...I may ask about a refurbishing to genuine original parts... norhing special with the audax...basic Morel is a possible swap but if the filter has particular impedance correction ...Fs not the same...
Any pictures of the burned resistors ?
.
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