Interesting! Will PM you shortly. EDIT: BTW, how much SMT work, and what size?
Last edited:
I must admit that I don't think there's really a linear relationship between SQ and price so I took your 'linear relationship' to be rather a log-linear one. Where SQ is roughly going up as log(price). I reckon after the introduction of the Yggy there will be no reason to spend more than $2300 other than for bling features like DSD.
Bruno did some measurements on an MSB DAC and was underwhelmed. It looked to me like they designed to ace a certain linearity measurement used in the magazines and also featured on their website.That's too much for me! Although having just read this thread about the $43k DAC, I guess I should be able to find $2k in my couch cushions, eh?
Given that quite a decent sounding DAC can be DIY'd for under $20 in parts (based on TDA1387 and running on batteries) yeah diminishing returns are the name of the game.
When I started out on DAC development (about 5 years ago) I didn't know what the limiting factor of my system was. Improving the DAC definitely helped but its only been in the last year or so I realized my amps weren't really doing justice to the vastly improved DAC. Along the way my ears also got tweaked as at the start I was used to hearing what I now call 'false detail' from a DAC.
Before you click - there's no complete schematic published because I give out information like that when its clear its going to be useful. I'm too lazy to publish stuff just on a whim that someone might just use it. If you like the design (its a bit long in the tooth now, I have a newer one further up the blog) then ask for more details.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/abraxalito/1122-first-transportable-ozone-incarnation.html
<edit> I see you've got the pic of the 2015 'Pagoda' edition. You did say a DIY DAC right? If all the caps scare you you can build it with fewer, just won't sound quite as good in the bass.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/abraxalito/1122-first-transportable-ozone-incarnation.html
<edit> I see you've got the pic of the 2015 'Pagoda' edition. You did say a DIY DAC right?
If all the caps scare you you can build it with fewer, just won't sound quite as good in the bass.Picture (at the time I didn't have L1 and the diode bridge installed)
I think the board is approximately 10 cm wide and 7 long. The passives are 0805 SMT, as well as (obviously) the two chips and the voltage regulators. The $30 ish is in USD and with last year's costs, combined with the falling Canadian dollar it might however cost more.
More info is avaliable here and here.
Last edited:
Thanks for the info, DF. I think I better get some SMT practice done before attempting something like that. Perhaps I will be a candidate for further revisions of your board.
In the meantime, I've just purchased what appears to be a good quality ES9023 DAC with i2s input for cheap. I'm really quite curious how the ESS chip will sound in comparison to the WM8740. Either way, the 9023 will make it into one of my systems, and it only cost me $37 CAD. I like the fact that it has a built-in charge pump, so no opamp(s) or output caps are required. I had a DAC with the WM8524 in it and it had the same feature. It was good, but a bit too warm/boring for my taste. I like laid back, but not boring. My dad likes the 8524...
In the meantime, I've just purchased what appears to be a good quality ES9023 DAC with i2s input for cheap. I'm really quite curious how the ESS chip will sound in comparison to the WM8740. Either way, the 9023 will make it into one of my systems, and it only cost me $37 CAD. I like the fact that it has a built-in charge pump, so no opamp(s) or output caps are required. I had a DAC with the WM8524 in it and it had the same feature. It was good, but a bit too warm/boring for my taste. I like laid back, but not boring. My dad likes the 8524...
Last edited:
I've also just purchased this for $20 CAD. CS4398 CM102 CS8416IC DAC KIT 192K 24bit SPI I2S Amplifier Board | eBay
I have a lot of the components already and I can harvest some good quality components off other stuff in my junk box. I may have to buy/order a few bits, but overall it'll be fun and cheap, and I'll get to listen to another DAC. I read some positive things on this forum about DACs built on this board. I'll likely only use the i2s input.
I have a lot of the components already and I can harvest some good quality components off other stuff in my junk box. I may have to buy/order a few bits, but overall it'll be fun and cheap, and I'll get to listen to another DAC. I read some positive things on this forum about DACs built on this board. I'll likely only use the i2s input.
Which is not enterily true ! I asked. But one can have a minimal level of knowledge to follow the explanation of Abraxalito ! It's not plug n'play nore a kit. Different spirit than a Subbu for example !
In fact it's the opposite :
-Subbu V3 is a A to Z closed (mostly) because the goal is different (here efficienty and semi industrial : GB, PCBs, BOM, shematics, screen board, method assembly thread, continuous improvement (V3)... the goal is from the maximum people can makes it at democratic price, for example it was my first smt parts soldering and I'm not specially skilled. Yo just need casing to have an equivalent off the shelf device !n Designers are involved by the efficienty of the goal maybe at the price of their own pleasure (annoying building thread for one of them)
-Ozone is a different way : believe Abrax is more involved by teaching, sharing around the design, it's open, it's more about a global reflexion of each level of the design and ask more: both for you in neurones and time and also money (verroaboards, options...no GB) while the designer certainly doesn't want to be involved by poor technical problems of assembly. It asks more to the diyer and at least this one needs a minimal knowledge to read between the answers to go fast. Here the designer is more involved by him pleasure, yours also to learn... it's more a long term projects.
To be parodic it's Windows VS Linux, 192K hz ready VS NOS : both goods, different ways, free L-pinguin-green duck world not surely less expensive at the end than W-apple-hering world : choose your prefered poison !
I'm sure the Ozone could be better than Subbu but also, due to the few design trade offs (despite a low cost orientation) and a non totally finished design: more expensive at the end though staying certainly very cheap for the quality and final SQ result ! I'm very pleased by the concept of passive supply (Babel caps tower; à la Hiraga who prefered passive regulation (CRC or CLC) and strong caps bench for low impedance curve and good transcient to the regs) also it involves multibit chips till sourcable and passive analog filtering.
At least this is my simple understanding and without doubts both dacs best than poor Ebay kits (even if some tweakings can help, here with the DIYAUDIO sharings you have a work from scratch and the quality beginns from the design phase
).You can also catch the bag of an old lady in the street and by an AMR device... but are we such men ? No, we are devo, D.E.V.O.
Last edited:
I do believe you are right, Eldam. However, I have spent considerable time searching in these very forums trying to find an affordable, relatively simple, excellent-sounding DIY DAC board (or kit) that I can buy.
I cannot find one. Everyone talks about Subbu DAC, but I can't figure out how to get one. Group buys are closed, or impossible to understand. This forum is a labyrinth, and group buys are here and gone before I have any idea they even existed.
I really shocked myself recently to get in on gmarsh's TPA3116/8 amp group buy. I feel like I was in the right place at the right time.
Not sure if that will ever happen with a DIY DAC, so I have resorted to e-bay once again. Even after starting this thread, I got one realistic tip about a DIY board, which I have my doubts about.
I cannot find one. Everyone talks about Subbu DAC, but I can't figure out how to get one. Group buys are closed, or impossible to understand. This forum is a labyrinth, and group buys are here and gone before I have any idea they even existed.
I really shocked myself recently to get in on gmarsh's TPA3116/8 amp group buy. I feel like I was in the right place at the right time.
Not sure if that will ever happen with a DIY DAC, so I have resorted to e-bay once again. Even after starting this thread, I got one realistic tip about a DIY board, which I have my doubts about.
Last edited:
For some reason I found this thread and for some reason I have a built V3 left over. PM me if you want a Subbu V3. I can not make it more understandable The GB's ran for 2 years so it was not our timing (this time). I can only advise to check the GB section every once in a while. No labyrinth whatsoever if you check the sections of matters you like. There seems to start a GB on a nice PSU shortly
The GB's ran for 2 years so it was not our timing (this time). I can only advise to check the GB section every once in a while. No labyrinth whatsoever if you check the sections of matters you like. There seems to start a GB on a nice PSU shortly
Last edited:
Cogitech,
I will catch the offer... which concist on a dac board + PSU board.
For some reason jean-paul prefer builded dac against kit ! (don't ask him why, maybe risk a : "do you prefer smoked herring than normal one?"
I have two kits myself but for some reason have difficulty to putt one of the two for sale !
Jean-Paul has more than two himself (again don't ask him why !)
V3 sound goods and french ears are delicates ! as they are setted up often in live events ! At least mines !
About your amp and bad GB experience ! You should go for this one which has very good testimonials : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/269144-my_ref-fremen-edition-gb-sixth-run.html
I will catch the offer... which concist on a dac board + PSU board.
For some reason jean-paul prefer builded dac against kit ! (don't ask him why, maybe risk a : "do you prefer smoked herring than normal one?"
I have two kits myself but for some reason have difficulty to putt one of the two for sale !
Jean-Paul has more than two himself (again don't ask him why !)
V3 sound goods and french ears are delicates ! as they are setted up often in live events ! At least mines !
About your amp and bad GB experience ! You should go for this one which has very good testimonials : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/269144-my_ref-fremen-edition-gb-sixth-run.html
Last edited:
Really? When? I must have missed it - apologies!
Yes its not a kit. You have to put in a bit more work to get the details as I'm not doing a publishing job for it. So I agree definitely not plug-and-play. Its for the more advanced user. Partly that's because I don't consider any design a finished item, they're all works in progress and only good until the next possible tweak presents itself. I present the 'Ozone' as a kind of template that can be adapted to the individual user's needs and their particular constraints.
Its refreshing to see you caught the spirit of it well
So you are a perfect candidate to build something modelled on 'Ozone'. Yes my offering is much more like Linux in the days before Ubuntu made it approachable enough for me to try it. Eventually I hope 'Ozone' will be available in a more Ubuntu flavour, more turn key but for now I'm working on amps.....Hey I hope J-P isn't listening to this
Yes if you have to pay Mouser prices for all the caps, definitely rather expensive. The design reflects the low price of caps on Taobao..... Different environments, different constraints on the design.
I must look into Hiraga's designs, I've heard about him but not studied him in depth. I'm glad to hear I'm (in part at least) in such esteemed company
Ahah, Don't appologize, you know i'm one of your fan and read your blog.
yes if you remember, we spoke few times about your choices and dac board layout issues and multibit chips by PM or even in this diyaudio section maybe one or two years ago ! We ask you more than once to open a thread about its building with Audiolapdance (who like me is a fan of Philips multibit chips) member and some few others iirc. But the thread collapsed for the reason I writted above : the reading was for people with a good knowledge already as the advises given where too macro sided ! Despite some like me could learn some few things when understanding it !
Ah JP knows I have a huge respect for him work and the share about it. As said if same final envy for SQ and for sharing not the same goals as you: the delta ratio between concrete/cost VS quantity of members impacted/pleased are the opposite between JP and you. Same Same but different could say Subbu member ! You share more than you believe between you both: sharing attitude is maybe the greatest !
Ok I stop, the price of green duck in China will rise if I continue ! We don't want you to be smoked as herring could be !
Finally pleased than Cogitech both learned for some tweaks while having a solution with J-P (and maybe a non mooving reference to tweak more after) for cheap (and he can also read the "Modyfing the Subbu" thread to go further)
PS :would you have some new inputs about your wall AC main filter and piano cords (in your blog) ?
yes if you remember, we spoke few times about your choices and dac board layout issues and multibit chips by PM or even in this diyaudio section maybe one or two years ago ! We ask you more than once to open a thread about its building with Audiolapdance (who like me is a fan of Philips multibit chips) member and some few others iirc. But the thread collapsed for the reason I writted above : the reading was for people with a good knowledge already as the advises given where too macro sided ! Despite some like me could learn some few things when understanding it !
Ah JP knows I have a huge respect for him work and the share about it. As said if same final envy for SQ and for sharing not the same goals as you: the delta ratio between concrete/cost VS quantity of members impacted/pleased are the opposite between JP and you. Same Same but different could say Subbu member ! You share more than you believe between you both: sharing attitude is maybe the greatest !
Ok I stop, the price of green duck in China will rise if I continue ! We don't want you to be smoked as herring could be !
Finally pleased than Cogitech both learned for some tweaks while having a solution with J-P (and maybe a non mooving reference to tweak more after
) for cheap (and he can also read the "Modyfing the Subbu" thread to go further)PS :would you have some new inputs about your wall AC main filter and piano cords (in your blog) ?
Last edited:
Ah I remember ALD and you wanting me to open a thread and I figured just two guys wasn't enough demand in the scheme of things. But if you want you could open a thread called 'Beginners questions in DAC design and build' and ask all the kinds of questions that newbies want to ask - I can't guess what they are myself but I'm happy to have a stab at answering them.
On the mains filters - I've not played with them for a few years. The original ones I built are still in operation but I'm noticing less mains supply issues now that I have more attention paid to power supply cleanliness within my designs. You're looking for new developments there?
On the mains filters - I've not played with them for a few years. The original ones I built are still in operation but I'm noticing less mains supply issues now that I have more attention paid to power supply cleanliness within my designs. You're looking for new developments there?
Not easy for noobs to understand where quality can be gained about PSRR and all those good things I don't understand !
with dacs : common mode chocks instead standalone, before the main traffo and after, etc, ferrite beads or chockes to have short ground loop before the dacs power pins just before the last decoupling cap and ETC !
so at minima : RCRCRCRC (beginning with a R just after the bridge diodes !
and what about all of those passive design against the most recent reg chips ? Same cap both for smoothing and reservoir cap ?
a main 240V/ 2x 120V secondary splitter traffo to symetrise the voltage before the dacs traffos ?
You know... all those noob questions from the perpetual beginners !
Ah : and TDA1387 or U1305 (good ortograph ?)
with dacs : common mode chocks instead standalone, before the main traffo and after, etc, ferrite beads or chockes to have short ground loop before the dacs power pins just before the last decoupling cap and ETC !
so at minima : RCRCRCRC (beginning with a R just after the bridge diodes !
and what about all of those passive design against the most recent reg chips ? Same cap both for smoothing and reservoir cap ?
a main 240V/ 2x 120V secondary splitter traffo to symetrise the voltage before the dacs traffos ?
You know... all those noob questions from the perpetual beginners !
Ah : and TDA1387 or U1305 (good ortograph ?)
Last edited:
PSRR isn't something I completely understand myself yet - I've been struggling to get there in my mind for many years now! That is in terms of relating PSRR plots given in opamp and chipamp datasheets to real-world performance.
I think for power supplies, just rectifier - small cap - choke - large cap works best for me. Most of the capacitance should be at the point of need but some capacitance is needed to ensure the choke stays conducting all the time. I go for about 20% of the total capacitance 'up front' and 80% at the load end. LC supplies beat out RC.
I think for power supplies, just rectifier - small cap - choke - large cap works best for me. Most of the capacitance should be at the point of need but some capacitance is needed to ensure the choke stays conducting all the time. I go for about 20% of the total capacitance 'up front' and 80% at the load end. LC supplies beat out RC.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.