thanx for the info womeil but i still dont understand how i can get the light source into the projector it is awkward with the opening being underneath the projector and doesnt have a great deal of space in there for any larger bulbs.
If i was to use a higher lumen rated bulb for my light source would it not matter much about the melting of panels etc as this would be outside the projector.
also i cant understand some specs about projectors some folk say that you need at least 1000 lumens rated projectors to watch during the day😕 but mine is only rated 150 watt 450 lumens and it is perfectly watchable even in bright daylight😕
mine is an infocus litepro 720 and i,ve seen some other more expensive models that dont look as good as mine😕
can you reall go on specs that much ?
fido
If i was to use a higher lumen rated bulb for my light source would it not matter much about the melting of panels etc as this would be outside the projector.
also i cant understand some specs about projectors some folk say that you need at least 1000 lumens rated projectors to watch during the day😕 but mine is only rated 150 watt 450 lumens and it is perfectly watchable even in bright daylight😕
mine is an infocus litepro 720 and i,ve seen some other more expensive models that dont look as good as mine😕
can you reall go on specs that much ?
fido
Here's the first web page that came up from entering into Yahoo!, the words: "metal halide track lighting"
http://eclecticlighting.homestead.com/TRACK_LIGHTING_METAL_HALIDE.html
There are a lot of other matches...
I have seen bulbs that go up to around 250 Watts, with magnetic/electronic ballast combinations.
Electronic would probably be better than magnetic for projection work - they operate at a higher frequency, and generate less possibility of flicker. The bulbs last longer too.
The bulbs don't generally last for millions of hours, but they are still much cheaper than the projection varieties...
Bill.
http://eclecticlighting.homestead.com/TRACK_LIGHTING_METAL_HALIDE.html
There are a lot of other matches...
I have seen bulbs that go up to around 250 Watts, with magnetic/electronic ballast combinations.
Electronic would probably be better than magnetic for projection work - they operate at a higher frequency, and generate less possibility of flicker. The bulbs last longer too.
The bulbs don't generally last for millions of hours, but they are still much cheaper than the projection varieties...
Bill.
To get the light into the projector you might have to do some fancy wood/metal/plastic work with the case, and possibly use a couple of front-surface mirrors/prism assemblies to get the beam to go in the right direction.
This is the price you pay if you move away from the nicely matched modules that slot right in... This is why they are expensive...
When I have done this in the past, I have been working on the bigger older projectors and generally have to build a new case (or case-extension) for the thing. Luckily, up to now this has been quite simple.
If the light module is in an inaccessible position underneath, you might want to build a box for the larger lamp enclosure plus optics, and then sit the projector on top of this so that the light path can be channeled using a periscope arrangement into the guts of your old projetor. Don't know the details, though...
As for melting things - the beam that emerges from some of these higher power bulbs can contain much infra-red and be very hot. Check out the posts by Marklar in the original DIY thread and his ability to burn paper with the beam from his light assembly.
Bill.
This is the price you pay if you move away from the nicely matched modules that slot right in... This is why they are expensive...
When I have done this in the past, I have been working on the bigger older projectors and generally have to build a new case (or case-extension) for the thing. Luckily, up to now this has been quite simple.
If the light module is in an inaccessible position underneath, you might want to build a box for the larger lamp enclosure plus optics, and then sit the projector on top of this so that the light path can be channeled using a periscope arrangement into the guts of your old projetor. Don't know the details, though...
As for melting things - the beam that emerges from some of these higher power bulbs can contain much infra-red and be very hot. Check out the posts by Marklar in the original DIY thread and his ability to burn paper with the beam from his light assembly.
Bill.
are there any longer life halogen bulbs available that would fit into my parabolic reflector if it was modified i.e take out the metal halide bulb and replace with halogen type.?
fido
fido
As for specs, output and power ratings, the reason the DIY requirements are SO high is because everybody is using a single RGB panel, and not three separate panels for R, G and B.
For each pixel, the red shutter absorbs green and blue light and only passes a proportion of the red. The Green absorbs the blue and red components, and only passes a proportion of the green. The blue...
As you can see, each shutter absorbs 66% of the light that falls on it that is not within its colour range, and only passes a proportion of the light that is.
Thus, when you factor in polarisation effects, apeture size, TFT transistors taking up space on the panel etc, you will understand why these panels only transmit about 10% of all the light that hits them - IF they are pretty good!!!
Most of the OHP and DIY projectors make pretty poor and inefficient use of the light that comes out of the bulb - lots of light is lost, even in the better designs. Marklar's excellent beast is a noted exception...
Thus, they need the power of the sun to get a decent picture.
In the three-panel projectors, a special set of dichroic half-mirrors is used to split the light into its components without using filters which would simply absorb any light of the wrong colour. Not much light is lost.
Each light beam is fed into an LCD panel where ALL the pixel realestate is devoted to that colour - not just 1/3 of it as is the case on the single panel devices.
Thus, each panel can easily be three times brighter with the same light level, and there are three panels feeding the output. That sounds like a potential 9x gain in light levels to me!
Hence, you could probably get away with a much smaller, lower power bulb...
For each pixel, the red shutter absorbs green and blue light and only passes a proportion of the red. The Green absorbs the blue and red components, and only passes a proportion of the green. The blue...
As you can see, each shutter absorbs 66% of the light that falls on it that is not within its colour range, and only passes a proportion of the light that is.
Thus, when you factor in polarisation effects, apeture size, TFT transistors taking up space on the panel etc, you will understand why these panels only transmit about 10% of all the light that hits them - IF they are pretty good!!!
Most of the OHP and DIY projectors make pretty poor and inefficient use of the light that comes out of the bulb - lots of light is lost, even in the better designs. Marklar's excellent beast is a noted exception...
Thus, they need the power of the sun to get a decent picture.
In the three-panel projectors, a special set of dichroic half-mirrors is used to split the light into its components without using filters which would simply absorb any light of the wrong colour. Not much light is lost.
Each light beam is fed into an LCD panel where ALL the pixel realestate is devoted to that colour - not just 1/3 of it as is the case on the single panel devices.
Thus, each panel can easily be three times brighter with the same light level, and there are three panels feeding the output. That sounds like a potential 9x gain in light levels to me!
Hence, you could probably get away with a much smaller, lower power bulb...
There are probably lots of halogen bulbs that can be used - ranging from OHP bulbs without reflectors, to the car headlamp bulbs.
If you intend to remove the bulb from your lamp module, be VERY careful: wear heavy protective clothing (heavy biker jacket and gauntlets etc.), eye/face protection, and preferably work behind a large heavy fresnel lens so that if the bulb explodes, your new hobby for the next few years won't be picking pieces of glass from your skin... 🙁
If you have already negotiated this task with no injury (the probable case), then you should check out the heat produced by any bulb situated at the prime focus of the reflector - you don't want it to be too hot - if it is too hot for your hand, then your LCD panels will not be happy.
Look for bulbs with small filament areas - they give the best beam characteristics, and you will probably want to adjust the bulb positioning to avoid any hotspots due to misalignment etc.
Good luck!
Bill.
If you intend to remove the bulb from your lamp module, be VERY careful: wear heavy protective clothing (heavy biker jacket and gauntlets etc.), eye/face protection, and preferably work behind a large heavy fresnel lens so that if the bulb explodes, your new hobby for the next few years won't be picking pieces of glass from your skin... 🙁
If you have already negotiated this task with no injury (the probable case), then you should check out the heat produced by any bulb situated at the prime focus of the reflector - you don't want it to be too hot - if it is too hot for your hand, then your LCD panels will not be happy.
Look for bulbs with small filament areas - they give the best beam characteristics, and you will probably want to adjust the bulb positioning to avoid any hotspots due to misalignment etc.
Good luck!
Bill.
woneill you say that halogen type bulbs dont last long but if some of those car headlamps can be used then these have quite a long life rating, would these be suitable by fitting into my lamp module ? and i guess i would need a 12 volt power supply too if was to use these. also dont metal halide bulbs give off more heat than halogen any way ? so the existing fan cooling system would be sufficient.
fido
fido
Hi Fido,
OHP halogen bulbs with high power outputs often have lives as short as 50 hours... This is why many people have been switching to the use of MH in their OHPs.
Car headlamps are generally (legally in the US) limited to around 55/65 Watts, and are built to last for much longer - in the range of thousands (though many are actually only rated for hundreds of hours...)
A 55/65 Watt halogen would probably not be bright enough for serious use even in a high efficiency projector, and you would need to go for the less standard higher power (110 Watt) "off-road" bulbs that may not have the same life as the standard variety. On the other hand, they might - I don't know.
Surprisingly, many of the HID bulbs used in Beemers etc. are only 35 Watts each!
Bill.
OHP halogen bulbs with high power outputs often have lives as short as 50 hours... This is why many people have been switching to the use of MH in their OHPs.
Car headlamps are generally (legally in the US) limited to around 55/65 Watts, and are built to last for much longer - in the range of thousands (though many are actually only rated for hundreds of hours...)
A 55/65 Watt halogen would probably not be bright enough for serious use even in a high efficiency projector, and you would need to go for the less standard higher power (110 Watt) "off-road" bulbs that may not have the same life as the standard variety. On the other hand, they might - I don't know.
Surprisingly, many of the HID bulbs used in Beemers etc. are only 35 Watts each!
Bill.
MH bulbs are MUCH more efficient than Halogen - it is the halogen bulbs that need the most cooling!
😱
😱
oh it seems i have a lot to learn about optics etc, surely there must be somewhere that sells small tube like metal halide bulbs that would fit into a lamp module🙁
so do you think the best way for me to go would be to build an external box and somehow using optics to redirect into the light path ?
fido
so do you think the best way for me to go would be to build an external box and somehow using optics to redirect into the light path ?
fido
quote by woneill:
If you can handle lower power outputs, try one (or possibly more) of the higher-power projector-beam fog lamps (110 Watts or so). Much less bright than the OHP variety, but MUCH cooler, cheap, long-lasting, already collimated, and if your projector is high efficiency, then it might be usable.
would these fit into my lamp module ?
fido
If you can handle lower power outputs, try one (or possibly more) of the higher-power projector-beam fog lamps (110 Watts or so). Much less bright than the OHP variety, but MUCH cooler, cheap, long-lasting, already collimated, and if your projector is high efficiency, then it might be usable.
would these fit into my lamp module ?
fido
Hi Fido,
You might try these people:
http://www.eurotekmarketing.com/index.html
There are others, but these give a pretty comprehensive list of the bulbs out there, and with pictures too. 😀
If you see a bulb you like, do a google/yahoo search on its part number, and you might find other suppliers, or more info on that, or similar bulbs.
Alternatively, you might want to check out the osram/sylvania/philips/ushio sites for info. The bulbs I have been looking at seem to be mainly for film/photographic work in enclosed spotlights etc.
My personal favourite is the HMI575WGS as used in some of the higher power OHP/LCD projectors from the mid 90's. I THINK it will work with an M59 400W balast, but I managed to get my old ballast working before I had to spend any money...
You may find something more appropriate for your needs...
Beware of the ballast requirements though - many of these bulbs have weird characteristics...
Bill.
You might try these people:
http://www.eurotekmarketing.com/index.html
There are others, but these give a pretty comprehensive list of the bulbs out there, and with pictures too. 😀
If you see a bulb you like, do a google/yahoo search on its part number, and you might find other suppliers, or more info on that, or similar bulbs.
Alternatively, you might want to check out the osram/sylvania/philips/ushio sites for info. The bulbs I have been looking at seem to be mainly for film/photographic work in enclosed spotlights etc.
My personal favourite is the HMI575WGS as used in some of the higher power OHP/LCD projectors from the mid 90's. I THINK it will work with an M59 400W balast, but I managed to get my old ballast working before I had to spend any money...
You may find something more appropriate for your needs...
Beware of the ballast requirements though - many of these bulbs have weird characteristics...
Bill.
The Projector Fog Lamps are often a complete headlamp assembley containing bulb, reflector, condenser lens etc.
They MIGHT fit, and they might not - it depends on the size of your lamp module, and the size of the lamp. Don't buy anything without seeing it - both in terms of size, and beam profile. Not all projector fog lamps are equal.
If you can put a suitable bulb into your existing module then you have won big time.
Anything else is probably going to dramatically increase the size of your projector...
Bill.
They MIGHT fit, and they might not - it depends on the size of your lamp module, and the size of the lamp. Don't buy anything without seeing it - both in terms of size, and beam profile. Not all projector fog lamps are equal.
If you can put a suitable bulb into your existing module then you have won big time.
Anything else is probably going to dramatically increase the size of your projector...
Bill.
quote:
i like the looks of this one so far
HTI 400WDE
integrated reflector....now to see more info
cant seem to see that one anywhere😕
oh i see it now still a little expensive though dont you think ?
fido
i like the looks of this one so far
HTI 400WDE
integrated reflector....now to see more info
cant seem to see that one anywhere😕
oh i see it now still a little expensive though dont you think ?
fido
eebasist,
I like it too - but it doesn't seem to have voltage levels consistent with M59 ratings... Maybe the other MH warriors can give more details on compatibility here...
http://www.osram.com/pdf/service_corner/technicalinfo/400W24e.pdf
Bill.
I like it too - but it doesn't seem to have voltage levels consistent with M59 ratings... Maybe the other MH warriors can give more details on compatibility here...
http://www.osram.com/pdf/service_corner/technicalinfo/400W24e.pdf
Bill.
woneill,
if my projector is rated at 450 lumens and 150 watt metal halide lamp, what would you reckon would be the closest alternative lamp rating i would need /
I know 450 lumen sounds low but this projector is much brighter than its rated i can watch this clearly even in bright daylight, it also has very good colour quality too.
fido
if my projector is rated at 450 lumens and 150 watt metal halide lamp, what would you reckon would be the closest alternative lamp rating i would need /
I know 450 lumen sounds low but this projector is much brighter than its rated i can watch this clearly even in bright daylight, it also has very good colour quality too.
fido
Hi Fido,
Using anything other than a perfectly optimised optical arrangement (i.e. the original lamp module) will result in light loss.
If you are doing your own bulb and reflector system, you must expect to lose light in an attempt to get an even uniform beam with the right divergence/convergence properties (I would assume parallel).
If you use the same wattage bulb, you will almost certainly get a weaker output than you are used to.
If you try to fit a higher power bulb into the cavity of your original lamp module, you will probably fry something due to the original cooling systems not being designed to handle more than originally expected.
If you go with an external light unit then you might get away with a standard 400 Watt system, or you might be better served with a more esoteric, but smaller 250 watt unit. Generally, the more powerful the bulb, the more space it will take up, and the more cooling it will need. The standard 400 watt lighting bulbs are BIG - the light module you would need to build around it could easily be much bigger than your projector.
For starting from scratch, with a brighter projector, my first instinct would be to explore the track lighting units - you can get some MH bulbs < 250 Watts with a rough parabolic reflector built in. It isn't perfect, but it will save you much effort and wasted light in creating your own. Smaller bulbs also support smaller reflectors...
While the the track lighting modules have matched parts - ballast, ignitor, bulb, and possibly reflector, they are much more expensive than standard lighting units...
In the end, do as much research about what is out there as possible, and then pick an option that works for your desires and abilities - if you are a whizz with powertools, you might want to build your "new" projector into a fancy case anyway!!!
In my case, I am a hardware minimalist, and want to limit box building as much as possible. Unfortunately, I am also a perfectionist. Not compatible.
Bill.
P.S. 450 lumens for a projected image is VERY bright. Most OHP ratings at 2000/4000 are using a transparency. As mentioned earlier, with an LCD panel, you are lucky to be pushing 10% of that - 200/400 lumens. If you were using the projector in a big hall, your image would probably be spread much thinner than if you were projecting on your wall at home. Thus, the latest projectors quote 2000 lumens+. This is not generally necessary for home use.
Using anything other than a perfectly optimised optical arrangement (i.e. the original lamp module) will result in light loss.
If you are doing your own bulb and reflector system, you must expect to lose light in an attempt to get an even uniform beam with the right divergence/convergence properties (I would assume parallel).
If you use the same wattage bulb, you will almost certainly get a weaker output than you are used to.
If you try to fit a higher power bulb into the cavity of your original lamp module, you will probably fry something due to the original cooling systems not being designed to handle more than originally expected.
If you go with an external light unit then you might get away with a standard 400 Watt system, or you might be better served with a more esoteric, but smaller 250 watt unit. Generally, the more powerful the bulb, the more space it will take up, and the more cooling it will need. The standard 400 watt lighting bulbs are BIG - the light module you would need to build around it could easily be much bigger than your projector.
For starting from scratch, with a brighter projector, my first instinct would be to explore the track lighting units - you can get some MH bulbs < 250 Watts with a rough parabolic reflector built in. It isn't perfect, but it will save you much effort and wasted light in creating your own. Smaller bulbs also support smaller reflectors...
While the the track lighting modules have matched parts - ballast, ignitor, bulb, and possibly reflector, they are much more expensive than standard lighting units...
In the end, do as much research about what is out there as possible, and then pick an option that works for your desires and abilities - if you are a whizz with powertools, you might want to build your "new" projector into a fancy case anyway!!!
In my case, I am a hardware minimalist, and want to limit box building as much as possible. Unfortunately, I am also a perfectionist. Not compatible.
Bill.
P.S. 450 lumens for a projected image is VERY bright. Most OHP ratings at 2000/4000 are using a transparency. As mentioned earlier, with an LCD panel, you are lucky to be pushing 10% of that - 200/400 lumens. If you were using the projector in a big hall, your image would probably be spread much thinner than if you were projecting on your wall at home. Thus, the latest projectors quote 2000 lumens+. This is not generally necessary for home use.
thanx for all that info woneill,
I think i may go about building a custom made box for my projector, one thing about if i make myself a custom box would one of the regular 400 watt metal halide setups give me more light than my original if i get the light path correct ? i could build a very closed unit around the the light path thus reducing light escaping.
fido
I think i may go about building a custom made box for my projector, one thing about if i make myself a custom box would one of the regular 400 watt metal halide setups give me more light than my original if i get the light path correct ? i could build a very closed unit around the the light path thus reducing light escaping.
fido
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