Agreed, amusing to watch small drivers flap about, but it's not exactly the very pinnacle of sonic fidelity.
Big-ish membrane area makes bass very "right".
I think just about anyone can fit a pair of speakers with double 12" each in their livingroom.
Big-ish membrane area makes bass very "right".
I think just about anyone can fit a pair of speakers with double 12" each in their livingroom.
Hi JinMTV,
I like concept of large(r) number of smaller drivers to equal or beat the Sd of one large driver. My favourite speakers are line array designs which epitomise this theory as well as have many other advantages when used on wall or in wall and full floor to ceiling height.
The 18 sound 8 NMB 420 in about 7 litres sealed makes a great line array for floor to ceiling(8 drivers tall in each speaker) bass... Lovely sound covering 35Hz up to around 2KHz.
But...! When it comes to subwoofers ie 20Hz to 80 Hz (THX definition) there is no way I have found to match the performance/cost/WAF of a dedicated large Sd subwoofer.
Just for fun try comparing 2 *15 inch or 4 *12 inch 8* 8 inch etc against the attached... IMO, this Precision Devices 21 inch driver in a small (100 litres/3 cubic feet) sealed box is ultimate design for domestic (or live sound if stacked in line arrays) use.
(1) Simplest possible build for DIY... Small sealed box.
(2) Produces amazing results in almost any room with simple auto room measurement and Eq'ing plus infinite manual adjustment and DSP crossover.
(3) Easy to integrate with 2 way, three way, home cinema, gaming etc.
Hope this helps
A.
I like concept of large(r) number of smaller drivers to equal or beat the Sd of one large driver. My favourite speakers are line array designs which epitomise this theory as well as have many other advantages when used on wall or in wall and full floor to ceiling height.
The 18 sound 8 NMB 420 in about 7 litres sealed makes a great line array for floor to ceiling(8 drivers tall in each speaker) bass... Lovely sound covering 35Hz up to around 2KHz.
But...! When it comes to subwoofers ie 20Hz to 80 Hz (THX definition) there is no way I have found to match the performance/cost/WAF of a dedicated large Sd subwoofer.
Just for fun try comparing 2 *15 inch or 4 *12 inch 8* 8 inch etc against the attached... IMO, this Precision Devices 21 inch driver in a small (100 litres/3 cubic feet) sealed box is ultimate design for domestic (or live sound if stacked in line arrays) use.
(1) Simplest possible build for DIY... Small sealed box.
(2) Produces amazing results in almost any room with simple auto room measurement and Eq'ing plus infinite manual adjustment and DSP crossover.
(3) Easy to integrate with 2 way, three way, home cinema, gaming etc.
Hope this helps
A.
😀 AFAIK still got the mid '70s sticker stashed 'somewhere' that they were pasting on anything that they could during the Atlanta ??? trade show, highlighted by then wife B!@#$ slapping the guy halfway across the wide aisle quicker than I could react when he planted one on her double Ds. Cheeky SOB. Would have been nice to have had a snapshot...........
As I simmed to be a real house/neighborhood/county excess...a pair of Dayton 18" four-ohm per side, tuned to an fb of 22.8 hertz, in a 900 liter enclosure...and a -3.00 Db @ 20.64 hertz.
Put away & secure any and all breakables, double-check picture frames...& keep out of it a little by closing all the doors, lest you get the cops on you double-time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick.......
Put away & secure any and all breakables, double-check picture frames...& keep out of it a little by closing all the doors, lest you get the cops on you double-time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick.......
You're welcome! Sorry, no, just recognized your moniker.......
Know the problem well except both mentally and physically tired and wish it's only been 10 yrs. 🙁
Cool! Got pics?
90 volts is the peak power handling to drive that 8" Silver Flute woofer system to its specified 5mm xmax. That's roughly only 1000 watts shared by 20 drivers. That might be fun for midbass duty and like a 32" frame woofer with ~29" diameter cone. That's $860+ shipping which might be better spent if one wants "bass".
maybe the little 8" MCM speaker BFM uses would do well in multiples
maybe the little 8" MCM speaker BFM uses would do well in multiples
Agains thanks all for the followups . I quickly realise i cannot even follow half of what you guys are writing , to much knowledge is missing in me smol head .
So i will work on learning basics before i get back to learning mid level stuff i guess.
I'll be looking into T/S parameters as i do not understand the implied details and the intereactions between all of them .
Any recommendation on reads/tubes ?
Also, i obviously posted this in the subwoofer section, which might've not been the right section for it ( my bad sorry ) since it was more of a learning/general topic.
Lukily you guys seem to attack this quite broadly 🙂
Would you say that there is a certain point in frenquency where it just makes not much sense to use smallish drivers as the woofers/subwoofers available are no contest ?
Wasn't it like .. 60hz ? kinda remember lots of folks using that frequency as a point to turn toward dedicated subwoofers ( might 've been cause how the sound dispertion works from there down ? )
have a great day/evening all 🙂
So i will work on learning basics before i get back to learning mid level stuff i guess.
I'll be looking into T/S parameters as i do not understand the implied details and the intereactions between all of them .
Any recommendation on reads/tubes ?
Also, i obviously posted this in the subwoofer section, which might've not been the right section for it ( my bad sorry ) since it was more of a learning/general topic.
Lukily you guys seem to attack this quite broadly 🙂
Would you say that there is a certain point in frenquency where it just makes not much sense to use smallish drivers as the woofers/subwoofers available are no contest ?
Wasn't it like .. 60hz ? kinda remember lots of folks using that frequency as a point to turn toward dedicated subwoofers ( might 've been cause how the sound dispertion works from there down ? )
have a great day/evening all 🙂
Last edited:
Well. If you make a sub/woofer section per channel I don't see much of a problem crossing over at 180-250hz, provided the frequency response is smooth enough. A double 12" or single 18" to a 10" coaxial would be good. High-ish xo helps lessen cone movement on the midrange so the modulation is less of an issue.
Modern PA drivers are very nice, I would rather use those than some car audio driver or whatnot.
Modern PA drivers are very nice, I would rather use those than some car audio driver or whatnot.
KaffiMann : The tradeoffs are in favor of the subwoofer up to that range ?
Would using a larger quantity of subwoofers help them work their way up in freq ?
Would using a larger quantity of subwoofers help them work their way up in freq ?
"No rule without exception", but in general: The fewer drivers you have, the higher you can cross over without disturbance. So a few large drivers in relative proximity to eachother would likely be just fine (pending on how far you want to stretch this...).
That said, if you start building an array with a lot of processing power then multiple small drivers can be a good solution.
That's the short version, do you want the equally short but with slightly more technical details edition?
That said, if you start building an array with a lot of processing power then multiple small drivers can be a good solution.
That's the short version, do you want the equally short but with slightly more technical details edition?
So very true, and often overlooked for some weird reason(s). My current PA sounds better than any 'hifi' system I have ever built in the past 40 years, despite constant budgetary limitations.
MrKlinky, yep! PA ftw! 😀
Trying to ez this up a bit:
The more drivers you add and the higher the crossover frequency, the more likely you are to start having issues with things like "combing". Combing would normally not be a problem with subwoofers, but when you want to cross higher the general guidelines are to stay below 1/4 wavelength distance center to center, which is supposed to help for when you want to use something like several midrange drivers and whatnot. But I really don't like MTM or other multiple mid designs, makes me feel weird when I stand up or sit down IE vertical movement. Get lots of weird "nulls", maybe it's just me though...
Double 12" or single 18" should work fine to 250-300hz, double 18" I would probably not try more than 150hz, same with a quad of 12".
Depends on a lot of things though, people manage to cobble together all sorts of stuff and make it sound good with a bit of DSP + multi-amp majick.
Trying to ez this up a bit:
The more drivers you add and the higher the crossover frequency, the more likely you are to start having issues with things like "combing". Combing would normally not be a problem with subwoofers, but when you want to cross higher the general guidelines are to stay below 1/4 wavelength distance center to center, which is supposed to help for when you want to use something like several midrange drivers and whatnot. But I really don't like MTM or other multiple mid designs, makes me feel weird when I stand up or sit down IE vertical movement. Get lots of weird "nulls", maybe it's just me though...
Double 12" or single 18" should work fine to 250-300hz, double 18" I would probably not try more than 150hz, same with a quad of 12".
Depends on a lot of things though, people manage to cobble together all sorts of stuff and make it sound good with a bit of DSP + multi-amp majick.
Last edited:
+1 I've started a little tutorial based on the 55-2421 as a viable ~7.5 Hz infra-bass array, but slow going with so much [not so] minor storm damage to deal with.
I can't seem to find anything about that subject either here or on tubes ,
would be greatful if you knowledgeable guys could chime in a bit on that to enlighten a total noob as meself 🙂
So simply, what would be the result of using a large quantity of smaller diameter woofers or midranges against using traditional single dual or few pretty large woofers/subwoofers .
Not trying to go into specifics here, only trying to understand how all this works slowly so my little brain can process it one bit at a time
This questioning came to mind when trying to understand relation between mass of drivers ( moving mass ? ) vs speed and sound pressure .
Wouldn't a multitude of lower mass drivers have better response and decay than a much larger single unit for the same perceived volume ?
Thanks for your time 🙂
Not to be bearer of bad news, but in my opinion, no amount of crappy little pseudo woofers with high Fs, poor bass response, high distortion will ever equal good big sub or two. Multiples of crappy stuff tend to sound still crappy. Just a different point of view.
Cal, line array of midranges, or fullranges is totally different animal.
1 cubic meter cabinet for 900 litres... 500Kg weight!
Not even OTT live sound would accept 900 litres and the immovable weight... in excess of 500Kg with 75mm (3 inch) thick plywood walls and massive internal bracing which in turn uses up Vb requiring bigger cabinet....
Not even OTT live sound would accept 900 litres and the immovable weight... in excess of 500Kg with 75mm (3 inch) thick plywood walls and massive internal bracing which in turn uses up Vb requiring bigger cabinet....
was this about PA? I sort of missed that...
I thought thread starter is talking about home use
guess I was wrong
I thought thread starter is talking about home use
guess I was wrong
It's okay, that's when we fetch the forklifts.
Wouldn't bother with that for a single 2x18" cab, though. There are plenty of smaller and lighter 2x18"s which would likely do the job just fine.
FWIW, I'd never bother with 3" thick plywood walls. Maybe 36mm in places, but internal bracing is what's needed here.
Chris