I'm actually just about to build myself a DIY USB sound device. I'm only waiting for a few parts coming in the mail. I couldn't really find any simmilar projects online so it's just something I thought up (so someone could obviously make a better one, for one of my goals was to make a cheap one on a budget). If you want I can tell you how it goes. Although for cost reasons as well as to keep it simpler I'm going with an output only device, there are no analog (or digital) inputs, nor is there a digital out.
Computer Audio
Computer audio is a mixed bag.
I have a Silicon Graphics workstation with a dedicated board atop the motherboard for digital I/O, and four channel analog in, and another one with ADAT ins and outs.
I use an original model Camelot Arthur DAC connected to this and the sound quality is quite good. However, with most 128 kb/s MP3s the sound is still quite bright, and also, many MP3s are not recorded by "professional" standards.. many are heard to clip at high volumes, obviously all not `ripped' in the digital domain.
I listented to 50 MP3s in a night and the only one which sounded quite good was a 320kb/s Nirvana - Smells like Teen Spirit. So there is hope.
And that flyback ringing drives me crazy!
-- Aaron
Computer audio is a mixed bag.
I have a Silicon Graphics workstation with a dedicated board atop the motherboard for digital I/O, and four channel analog in, and another one with ADAT ins and outs.
I use an original model Camelot Arthur DAC connected to this and the sound quality is quite good. However, with most 128 kb/s MP3s the sound is still quite bright, and also, many MP3s are not recorded by "professional" standards.. many are heard to clip at high volumes, obviously all not `ripped' in the digital domain.
I listented to 50 MP3s in a night and the only one which sounded quite good was a 320kb/s Nirvana - Smells like Teen Spirit. So there is hope.
And that flyback ringing drives me crazy!
-- Aaron
The encoder has the most affect on overall sound quality. Make sure you are using the latest codecs when making your own MP3's... I have found that a certain fraunhofer (sp?) 190kb/s sounds better than 320kb/s ones made with inferior codecs (many of which are still freely available for download).
Most downloaded MP3's are crap but with the right encoder you can make your own MP3's sound better than others at less bitrates -- although I don't recommend anything under 190, and don't use "joint" stereo if possible.
Most downloaded MP3's are crap but with the right encoder you can make your own MP3's sound better than others at less bitrates -- although I don't recommend anything under 190, and don't use "joint" stereo if possible.
scope the output.
Believe it or not, there are several common drivers out there that actually brick wall freq. response at about 13K. (I know of one even in a $1,500 card!). The card and codec are not the problem in these cases - it is the drivers passing bad instructions to the machine. I suspect that a.) was done for a processing reason since b.) the vast majority of people would not even know what they are missing. I know that some codecs are really prone to ringing if you leave the high freq as normal. But before you start ripping, you might want to check.
Believe it or not, there are several common drivers out there that actually brick wall freq. response at about 13K. (I know of one even in a $1,500 card!). The card and codec are not the problem in these cases - it is the drivers passing bad instructions to the machine. I suspect that a.) was done for a processing reason since b.) the vast majority of people would not even know what they are missing. I know that some codecs are really prone to ringing if you leave the high freq as normal. But before you start ripping, you might want to check.
.ogg Vorbis
What about the quality of .ogg files? How do these compare to well-ripped MP3's? The website says that this format is created for professionals, and there's a plug-in for Media Jukebox.
http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/
What about the quality of .ogg files? How do these compare to well-ripped MP3's? The website says that this format is created for professionals, and there's a plug-in for Media Jukebox.
http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/
Actually, I'm going to use both a PCM2702 (Burr-Brown), which is 16bit but has good SNR and THD specs, as well as a secound box made with the UDA1321 (Phillips), which is a higher bit DAC but doesn't have as good specs as the BB product. I'll give them a try, but since mp3's and ogg are going to be my primary source of music the 16bit DAC on the PCM2702 probably won't be a problem.
I considered going with a USB interface device and a seperate DAC, but well this is alot simplier and I don't have to mess with 48 pin surface mount parts...
I considered going with a USB interface device and a seperate DAC, but well this is alot simplier and I don't have to mess with 48 pin surface mount parts...
Re: scope the output.
Is it the driver or the card doing this?
My friend bought a new Dell and when I plugged it into a good stereo system the high end was completely missing. Sounded like it was playing at 32KHz sampling rate, all the time (from games, MP3, CD's, anything). The lack of treble is also noticable on the $5 speakers the computer came with. I have yet to check the drivers and the type of sound board it is using but as soon as I do I will post. Also, the bass and treble controls in the audio mixer are "dimmed" and unadjustable.
Is it the driver or the card doing this?
My friend bought a new Dell and when I plugged it into a good stereo system the high end was completely missing. Sounded like it was playing at 32KHz sampling rate, all the time (from games, MP3, CD's, anything). The lack of treble is also noticable on the $5 speakers the computer came with. I have yet to check the drivers and the type of sound board it is using but as soon as I do I will post. Also, the bass and treble controls in the audio mixer are "dimmed" and unadjustable.
Sawzall said:
I'm going soon for Terratec EWX 96 http://www.terratec.de/
I've got a SBLive Platinum and never been happy with it. This Terratec soundcard supports true 24 bit 96 kHz in/out and has a lot of features that should satisfy my engineering way of thinking.
I've got a SBLive Platinum and never been happy with it. This Terratec soundcard supports true 24 bit 96 kHz in/out and has a lot of features that should satisfy my engineering way of thinking.
Yoda said:
wonderfull, I was planing to go shopping soon
looks like none of the mainstream cards are particularily good
and thats all I've really got available to me, not to mention price limitations. Not to dispair, all will work out in the end. (I suspect price will be the deciding factor)
Its got to sound better than the SB16 thing I plugged into my fiddle box...
looks like none of the mainstream cards are particularily good
and thats all I've really got available to me, not to mention price limitations. Not to dispair, all will work out in the end. (I suspect price will be the deciding factor)
Its got to sound better than the SB16 thing I plugged into my fiddle box...
High Freq. Cutoff
Its not the cards usually - it is the application software and the drivers. The one I know the most about is under a NDA so I can't disclose the specifics. There are solutions if you ask the companies however (knowing to ask is the important part - and we can all reasonably assume that the vast majority of people would not know the difference). If you do fix the response issue, you will discover the other problems and have to deal with them, such as the ringing I mentioned.
Its not the cards usually - it is the application software and the drivers. The one I know the most about is under a NDA so I can't disclose the specifics. There are solutions if you ask the companies however (knowing to ask is the important part - and we can all reasonably assume that the vast majority of people would not know the difference). If you do fix the response issue, you will discover the other problems and have to deal with them, such as the ringing I mentioned.
jumping in late
This thread has drifted a bit from the original topic, but for anyone attempting to get even 'mid-fi' level sound from their PC, you can pretty much forget any of the consumer-oriented cards. Creative, Turtle Beach, integrated motherboard sound etc are all targeted at casual use/3d games. I won't say that they ignore sound quality, but it's way down the list of their priorities.
You can get very good sound from a PC using one of the cards targetted at DAW/studio use. These are typically somewhat pricey, but do produce good results. They may ultimately fall short of the mega-buck ultra high-end, but certainly are competitive with any "real-world" gear. The big downside to all these types of cards is that they don't really support games at all. In theory, you can have two cards in your system, but this isn't always a smooth path.
M-Audio, Card-D, RME, Event etc area all good bets for sound quality. The are available through pro music dealers - www.8thstreet.com, www.audiomidi.com etc. The Audiophile 24/96 is probably the cheapest way to get into good spdif output along with decent analog output. The Delta 1010 is an 8-channel card, and probably has the best affordable ($500-600) analog outputs, due to housing the converters in a separate external enclosure. If you want anything better than the Delta 1010, you're looking at a pretty serious investment.
The Terratec card mentioned earlier and the Hoontech DSP24 are very similar to some of the Delta cards, but are slightly poorer implementations. The might be a good compromise for some applications (spdif on these should be fine).
This thread has drifted a bit from the original topic, but for anyone attempting to get even 'mid-fi' level sound from their PC, you can pretty much forget any of the consumer-oriented cards. Creative, Turtle Beach, integrated motherboard sound etc are all targeted at casual use/3d games. I won't say that they ignore sound quality, but it's way down the list of their priorities.
You can get very good sound from a PC using one of the cards targetted at DAW/studio use. These are typically somewhat pricey, but do produce good results. They may ultimately fall short of the mega-buck ultra high-end, but certainly are competitive with any "real-world" gear. The big downside to all these types of cards is that they don't really support games at all. In theory, you can have two cards in your system, but this isn't always a smooth path.
M-Audio, Card-D, RME, Event etc area all good bets for sound quality. The are available through pro music dealers - www.8thstreet.com, www.audiomidi.com etc. The Audiophile 24/96 is probably the cheapest way to get into good spdif output along with decent analog output. The Delta 1010 is an 8-channel card, and probably has the best affordable ($500-600) analog outputs, due to housing the converters in a separate external enclosure. If you want anything better than the Delta 1010, you're looking at a pretty serious investment.
The Terratec card mentioned earlier and the Hoontech DSP24 are very similar to some of the Delta cards, but are slightly poorer implementations. The might be a good compromise for some applications (spdif on these should be fine).
I also had problems getting good sound from a pc,
I started with a SBLive, years ago, didn't sound verry wel (dispite the specs), I bought a better Power Supley (about $70, aopen), that made alot of diference, more stable (needed the harddiskdrive-led again, before I could hear when the hd was turning)
Now i've bought an old DCC player (DCC -600 (first generation, 16-bit) 30 Euro) connected trough the coax out of a cheap Trust PCI Soundcart. (wich sounds horrible at analog but quite nice at SPdif)
The DCC compression is not used at all, it only functions as BitStream DAC-ADC.
As far as I can hear it doesn't convert the audio to analog at the Trust cart. (the noise rate is below 115db at the greater part, only below 30hz it gets higer (about 95-100) and one spike at 22khz (I only see it, can't hear it)
It sound quite well, still If i connect my old Sherewood player to the digital input of the DCC it sounds better. I think the timing of the Trust cart is horrible, and the 2 meter coax that runs behind two monitors isn't good either.
In the netherlands old DCC players are easy to get, but outside much harder.
Yamaha has release an special USB audio device a couple of year ago, for about $500, with internal amp, 24bit DAC/ADC, optical, coax and analog in and out. (and some Virtual DTS, AC-3 crap)
Because it didn't sell at all you can find them now below $70.
The ampifier is bad, connection over USB compresed, but when you use the coax or optical it sound quite good. (at 16-bit like a cheap maranzt or denon (detailed but cold) and at 24-bit quite good)
I prefere the DCC player because it sounds more analogue.
I started with a SBLive, years ago, didn't sound verry wel (dispite the specs), I bought a better Power Supley (about $70, aopen), that made alot of diference, more stable (needed the harddiskdrive-led again, before I could hear when the hd was turning)
Now i've bought an old DCC player (DCC -600 (first generation, 16-bit) 30 Euro) connected trough the coax out of a cheap Trust PCI Soundcart. (wich sounds horrible at analog but quite nice at SPdif)
The DCC compression is not used at all, it only functions as BitStream DAC-ADC.
As far as I can hear it doesn't convert the audio to analog at the Trust cart. (the noise rate is below 115db at the greater part, only below 30hz it gets higer (about 95-100) and one spike at 22khz (I only see it, can't hear it)
It sound quite well, still If i connect my old Sherewood player to the digital input of the DCC it sounds better. I think the timing of the Trust cart is horrible, and the 2 meter coax that runs behind two monitors isn't good either.
In the netherlands old DCC players are easy to get, but outside much harder.
Yamaha has release an special USB audio device a couple of year ago, for about $500, with internal amp, 24bit DAC/ADC, optical, coax and analog in and out. (and some Virtual DTS, AC-3 crap)
Because it didn't sell at all you can find them now below $70.
The ampifier is bad, connection over USB compresed, but when you use the coax or optical it sound quite good. (at 16-bit like a cheap maranzt or denon (detailed but cold) and at 24-bit quite good)
I prefere the DCC player because it sounds more analogue.
Ive managed to get rather good sound quality out of my PC.
Im using the nForce Soundstorm onboard "soundcard" for SPDIF out, which i supply to my DAC.
My DAC also has USB input which also gives geat sound, but im using the Soundstorm beacuse it has less limitations than the USB audio.
Ill be doing upgrades soon though to a Envy24HT based sound card and a new DAC and AMP.
As for source sound quality...
Avoid 160kbit or lower MP3s, they simply sound horrible.
Ogg Vorbis is a very good format, much better than MP3 and are normally encoded at a higher bit rate.
MPC (mpeg plus) is another format which is quite new that seems to be slightly higher quality than Ogg Vorbis.
Then there are all the lossless formats which of course are of the best quality.
Im using the nForce Soundstorm onboard "soundcard" for SPDIF out, which i supply to my DAC.
My DAC also has USB input which also gives geat sound, but im using the Soundstorm beacuse it has less limitations than the USB audio.
Ill be doing upgrades soon though to a Envy24HT based sound card and a new DAC and AMP.
As for source sound quality...
Avoid 160kbit or lower MP3s, they simply sound horrible.
Ogg Vorbis is a very good format, much better than MP3 and are normally encoded at a higher bit rate.
MPC (mpeg plus) is another format which is quite new that seems to be slightly higher quality than Ogg Vorbis.
Then there are all the lossless formats which of course are of the best quality.
I recommend the M-Audio Revolution 7.1 - great soundcard, every bit as good as the audiophile 24/96 (actually, better IMHO - it's 24/192 capable), and very affordable. I got mine from newegg.com for only $90! If you're looking to record, you'll probably want something with more input channels, but it's nice to have 7.1 output channels for home theatre.
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