Rocky said:
I think that is very likely the case
This is the hardest part to get right and the gist of the problem.
The only real suggestion is to go horn loaded as much as possible, try to keep your dispersion as close as possible, particularly at crossover points. However, the lower you go the more physical size of the horn does possibly get into WAF problems.
Any number of things have been tried and I can really only point out that Altec, JBL pro sound type of solutions are common - along with a variety of Lowther horn combinations - I'm not at the moment aware of any particularly preferable solution.
I am somewhat familiar with the problems since I have been looking at this for sometime with the Azuras - which are of course a different approach with different crossover points.
Look at Magnetar's solution - he has posted his system here.
The Only thing that comes to me right off the top of my head is something that I am unaware of anyone doing - however - one thought would be to use Oris horns for lower mid and subs beneath that. Or make up your own version using a 8" Lowther or a Fostex FE208E sigma. Which probably comes to me because it is a variation of what I am doing at this point in time. WAF again raises its head. .
When you butt up with WAF - and/or room size it restricts your options a lot.
With the digital crossover and using a SS amp for the subs, it makes biamping the lower mid down easier and less expensive. You could used sealed 12" subs with EQ and a used SS amp for the lowest octave and that would probably be the best option size wise other than horns all the way
To sum up - using the tad in it's intended region or down to say 425-450, with a passive horn loaded supertweeter on top and an active digital crossover 3way on the TADs, lower mid and sealed subs is probably as good as you can come up with and keep the WAF down somewhat.
Doing that right will not be easy but is doable conceptually and practically while not breaking the bank.
This would maintain horn loading through the full range of vocals, keep the crossover down in the lower mid, allow for tweaking digitally and only shift out of horn loading at the bottom due to size requirements. A three way horn loaded system using the TAD where it is sweet and with sealed subs should be stunning and only give up a little on the subs - IMHO -
regards
Ken L
Slowmo; I did not have the intention to build a 100Hz full-size horn, but the reason for wanting to extend TADs operational area would be to get away with a much smaller system, such as the Avantgarde Uno, wich uses active filters at 220Hz.. The uno does certainly not have a 100Hz horn on top, however I do not know it's cutoff flare.. My hope was to get away with the same setup as Uno, without a dedicated midbass, but it seems to be a shot in the dark?
Hi Rocky, all
I don't know the Uno, more than what I've seen in
various magazines.
Do you know the diameter of the mid horn?
cheers 😉
I don't know the Uno, more than what I've seen in
various magazines.
Do you know the diameter of the mid horn?
cheers 😉
Re: I haven't heard them with Radians
Hi Rocky
Yes, more or less.
As far as I know Avantgarde and A Capella
use kügelwellenhorn, which is similar to tractrix.
I could be wrong, tho.
Avantgarde has IMHO made the best they can
from as small a package as they can,
according to the reviews they have done a pretty good job of it.
I have not heard them myself.
Personally I would not use a horn with 190Hz cut-off
under 300-350 Hz , however it depends a lot on the driver, horn and crossover.
cheers 😉
Hi Rocky
Rocky said:
Yes, more or less.
As far as I know Avantgarde and A Capella
use kügelwellenhorn, which is similar to tractrix.
I could be wrong, tho.
Avantgarde has IMHO made the best they can
from as small a package as they can,
according to the reviews they have done a pretty good job of it.
I have not heard them myself.
Personally I would not use a horn with 190Hz cut-off
under 300-350 Hz , however it depends a lot on the driver, horn and crossover.
cheers 😉
Well Rocky,
You've seen the glass of sonic fullfillment half full and half empty.
What do you think now?
You've seen the glass of sonic fullfillment half full and half empty.
What do you think now?
roddyama said:Well Rocky,
You've seen the glass of sonic fullfillment half full and half empty.
Do you really want to know what I think, Rodd?
OK, I'll tell you.. What I would like to do (at this point 😉) is to build a tractrix horn like the one used in Uno's midrange, 190Hz. IMO this should be a flexible size.. I should reach to 3000Hz with it, covering voices, and if I choose to cross at 500Hz-600Hz for a "normal" setup with TAD/JBL midwoofs, I'll have decent badwidth below the XO providing decent odds for a good transition. With the same horns I could experiment and see what I could do with a low (250-300Hz) XO using brutally steep digital/active slopes and make up my very own mind wether it's feasible to use the TAD in a Duo-type of setup or not.
I will under any circumstances take Ken's advice and not focus on a tweeter at this point, and when I do, I will probably take his advice on a passive bullet horn too, to save some work and money. It seems to be an easy, cheap (relatively), and good solution.
Now, Rodd.. what do YOU think?
EDIT: "what I think" = "what I am thinking".. what was I thinking?
Rodd, Slowmo, Ken.. Any opinions on this approach? It'll let me play with the Radian-phragms potential, still letting me use the driver in it's intended range, and lets me base my decision of where to go next on my impressions of the driver/horn/diaphragms actual performance... Keeping all possibilities open..
Rocky,
I believe the ideal range for the 4001's is the decade from 1kHz to 10kHz. You have the issue of blending to the mid-bass, but you will always have that issue, unless your experiments tell us something new and exciting. I also like the JBL 077 on top asI said in previous threads.
The glass I presented was half full so that is what I think of your approach. Will it work... I don't know, but won't that be a pleasant surprise if it does? If it doesn't work you can trade the horns for smaller horns and move the BW up an octave or 2.
I believe the ideal range for the 4001's is the decade from 1kHz to 10kHz. You have the issue of blending to the mid-bass, but you will always have that issue, unless your experiments tell us something new and exciting. I also like the JBL 077 on top asI said in previous threads.
The glass I presented was half full so that is what I think of your approach. Will it work... I don't know, but won't that be a pleasant surprise if it does? If it doesn't work you can trade the horns for smaller horns and move the BW up an octave or 2.
Rodd; I'll take your half full glass and propose a toast. 
I'll get those 190Hz horns done and see where they take me.. Thanks for all comments, support, suggestions, and warnings.
The decision is made, it'll make for a interresting project. I'll post updates in this thread when there are something to tell, so stay tuned 🙂
I'll be back...
I'll get those 190Hz horns done and see where they take me.. Thanks for all comments, support, suggestions, and warnings.
The decision is made, it'll make for a interresting project. I'll post updates in this thread when there are something to tell, so stay tuned 🙂
I'll be back...
Re: Re: I haven't heard them with Radians
Yep
BTW, have you ever looked at one of these large tractix horns from the side? - That Sierra Brooks Grand 32 horn is about four feet from from mouth to driver, approx ~ could be more or less - noticeably large though. Might be a size and WAF problem depending on your room size -
I"ve only used 48db and 52DB slopes from around 135 to 150 - not sure if you can get away with them at higher frequencies. But it's definetly worth trying if you don't run out of bands _grin_
Actually, I said horn supertweeter here - there is a variety to choose from
I agree with Roddy here _grin_
RE: room size, WAF and tractix horns - Tractix has the reputation for being one of the better sounding flares. However, it is a medium throw horn and needs a larger room for proper imaging and integration - with a similar flare, this is why the AG systems have a reputation for being difficult to setup and for poor integration.
The sweet spot will be very small in standard rooms. Sweet spot being small is a frequent comment about tractix unless well back from the horns.
If that is a problem, you might want to consider a Le Cleac'h flare - shorter throw - wider sweet spot.
The Azuras use a Le Cleac'h flare and are about perfect in my 14x9x23.5 ft room.
Hope you get where you want - just do it _grin_ if it doesn't do what you like then you'll just do it again _bigger grin_
Let us know how it works out -
Regards
Ken L
slowmotion said:
Yep
BTW, have you ever looked at one of these large tractix horns from the side? - That Sierra Brooks Grand 32 horn is about four feet from from mouth to driver, approx ~ could be more or less - noticeably large though. Might be a size and WAF problem depending on your room size -
Rocky said:
I"ve only used 48db and 52DB slopes from around 135 to 150 - not sure if you can get away with them at higher frequencies. But it's definetly worth trying if you don't run out of bands _grin_
Rocky said:
Actually, I said horn supertweeter here - there is a variety to choose from
roddyama said:
I agree with Roddy here _grin_
RE: room size, WAF and tractix horns - Tractix has the reputation for being one of the better sounding flares. However, it is a medium throw horn and needs a larger room for proper imaging and integration - with a similar flare, this is why the AG systems have a reputation for being difficult to setup and for poor integration.
The sweet spot will be very small in standard rooms. Sweet spot being small is a frequent comment about tractix unless well back from the horns.
If that is a problem, you might want to consider a Le Cleac'h flare - shorter throw - wider sweet spot.
The Azuras use a Le Cleac'h flare and are about perfect in my 14x9x23.5 ft room.
Hope you get where you want - just do it _grin_ if it doesn't do what you like then you'll just do it again _bigger grin_
Let us know how it works out -
Regards
Ken L
Second thoughts..
Rodd,
You are using dual JBL LE10A's from 70Hz to 1200Hz, right?
I could fit a 350Hz tractrix on top of the woofer cabinets, and use dual 10'' woofers to drive the frequencies below 500Hz, for a reasonable WAF design (see the attached image)
In this scenario, I would like to get away with not using subs, so the woofers would have to cover 30Hz-500Hz. Any woofer recommendation in such a setup (10 inchers) ??
Rodd,
You are using dual JBL LE10A's from 70Hz to 1200Hz, right?
I could fit a 350Hz tractrix on top of the woofer cabinets, and use dual 10'' woofers to drive the frequencies below 500Hz, for a reasonable WAF design (see the attached image)
In this scenario, I would like to get away with not using subs, so the woofers would have to cover 30Hz-500Hz. Any woofer recommendation in such a setup (10 inchers) ??
Attachments
Hi Rocky,
No sub eh, not good. The volume displacement requirements at 30Hz require big speakers, large X-Max, or both. The trade-offs for doing otherwise is low SPL's, or compression from overdriven speakers, loss of efficiency, increased distortion, and/or various combinations of all of the above. Not to mention again the the difficulties of running a driver at the extreme of its BW, in this case the 10" driver.
I always like to reference Kelticwizards' thread on Volume Displacement when we start to talk about bass speakers. As we used to say in my street racing days, "there is no replacement for displacment."
There are a few possibilities. You can run a 12" or 15" bass and a 10" or 8" mid-bass in the same box (separated inside). I variation and more difficult to make work might be a 12" and 10" in the same box running the same range from 30Hz to 500Hz. Both drivers would need the same T/S parameters.
There have been a few searches on the forum for 10" drivers that can match well with horns. Most of these searches were for mid-bass speakers that would pick-up from the sub in the 60Hz to 150Hz range. It took me 20 years to get the LE10A's to match to my liking. The LE10A can be tuned to a 40Hz f3, but 30Hz is a little beyond it real capabilities.
Other possible candidates are the PHL 10" drivers. Usually, drivers that have the mass to go low will become compressed in its upper range. That why you need to look for a good wide or full range driver. Even with that, you'll have trouble getting to 30Hz.
No sub eh, not good. The volume displacement requirements at 30Hz require big speakers, large X-Max, or both. The trade-offs for doing otherwise is low SPL's, or compression from overdriven speakers, loss of efficiency, increased distortion, and/or various combinations of all of the above. Not to mention again the the difficulties of running a driver at the extreme of its BW, in this case the 10" driver.
I always like to reference Kelticwizards' thread on Volume Displacement when we start to talk about bass speakers. As we used to say in my street racing days, "there is no replacement for displacment."
There are a few possibilities. You can run a 12" or 15" bass and a 10" or 8" mid-bass in the same box (separated inside). I variation and more difficult to make work might be a 12" and 10" in the same box running the same range from 30Hz to 500Hz. Both drivers would need the same T/S parameters.
There have been a few searches on the forum for 10" drivers that can match well with horns. Most of these searches were for mid-bass speakers that would pick-up from the sub in the 60Hz to 150Hz range. It took me 20 years to get the LE10A's to match to my liking. The LE10A can be tuned to a 40Hz f3, but 30Hz is a little beyond it real capabilities.
Other possible candidates are the PHL 10" drivers. Usually, drivers that have the mass to go low will become compressed in its upper range. That why you need to look for a good wide or full range driver. Even with that, you'll have trouble getting to 30Hz.
Re: Second thoughts..
You're getting closer and closer _big grin_
Actually, in the final anlysis it looks like Roddy and I think more alike than we do differently _even bigger grin_.
Conceptually a 350hz tractix with the Tad handling down to 500hz is a solid concept, although I'm not as technically minded as a number of the _horn_ enthusiasts -
I don't remember the specs and how high a bandwith he was covering with it but Linkwitz had an H frame dipole with 2 12"s in it, one facing forward and one back - The frame was just barely large enough to mount the 12" drivers -
The proportions were similar to your drawing ( as I envision it - you didn't give dimensions) and if it went up high enough might well be a satisfactory solution.
If you were using a digital crossover you could EQ as needed for the dipoles.
this is something I looked at but I was looking at crossing over a good bit lower and can't remember the bandwith. I do remember that several people were using similar dipoles with subs horns and said they were quite satisfactory. IIRC, they were looking at 500 hz down solutions
You might want to check it out. Linkwitz has reorganized his website.
Regards
Ken L
Rocky said:
You're getting closer and closer _big grin_
roddyama said:
Actually, in the final anlysis it looks like Roddy and I think more alike than we do differently _even bigger grin_.
Conceptually a 350hz tractix with the Tad handling down to 500hz is a solid concept, although I'm not as technically minded as a number of the _horn_ enthusiasts -
I don't remember the specs and how high a bandwith he was covering with it but Linkwitz had an H frame dipole with 2 12"s in it, one facing forward and one back - The frame was just barely large enough to mount the 12" drivers -
The proportions were similar to your drawing ( as I envision it - you didn't give dimensions) and if it went up high enough might well be a satisfactory solution.
If you were using a digital crossover you could EQ as needed for the dipoles.
this is something I looked at but I was looking at crossing over a good bit lower and can't remember the bandwith. I do remember that several people were using similar dipoles with subs horns and said they were quite satisfactory. IIRC, they were looking at 500 hz down solutions
You might want to check it out. Linkwitz has reorganized his website.
Regards
Ken L
It seems that there is no shortcuts in such a system. I am fortunate to have your help or I would spend years walking the the extra miles..
Rodd; I am not willing to compromise on efficiency in the midbass area, as the extra octave 30Hz-60Hz is simply not worth it. A single subwoofer can do the trick at this frequencies, and I can live without it for a period.
Now, with regards to midbass solution, I would like some more input.. The "no-sub" criteria is no longer valid (as it will not be feasible) so the area to focus on is 100Hz-500Hz, preferrably as low as 60Hz. Dual drivers will be my preferred choice to get a large pushing membrane area with a relatively narrow box width. The dipole suggested by Ken (I assume it's this one):
looks like a very interresting solution, however, if I were to use such a setup, I would use 10'' drivers instead of 12''.. but are the dipole my ideal choice? a better choice than vented or closed box?
I will aquire a Behringer digital XO one of these days..
Rodd; I am not willing to compromise on efficiency in the midbass area, as the extra octave 30Hz-60Hz is simply not worth it. A single subwoofer can do the trick at this frequencies, and I can live without it for a period.
Now, with regards to midbass solution, I would like some more input.. The "no-sub" criteria is no longer valid (as it will not be feasible) so the area to focus on is 100Hz-500Hz, preferrably as low as 60Hz. Dual drivers will be my preferred choice to get a large pushing membrane area with a relatively narrow box width. The dipole suggested by Ken (I assume it's this one):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
looks like a very interresting solution, however, if I were to use such a setup, I would use 10'' drivers instead of 12''.. but are the dipole my ideal choice? a better choice than vented or closed box?
I will aquire a Behringer digital XO one of these days..
And would the JBL LE10A be dipole suited? or are there better choices?
Would I get the same result by pointing both woofers forwards, but inverting polarity on one of them?
Would I get the same result by pointing both woofers forwards, but inverting polarity on one of them?
Rocky said:
Well I guess Ken and I must part ways here. I'm not a big proponent of dipoles... at all. That's not to say that it can't be sucsessful, they can. I'm just not a big fan.
The character of the mid-horn will have a lot to do with determining the configuration of the mid-bass driver(s). As mentioned before, the characteristics like dynamics and to a little lesser extent impact, should match or "blend" across the two ranges. I've alway believed that the dispersion pattern through the x-over range is also important.
Again be ready to do some tweaking.
I prefer stereo subs, even with a xover at 70Hz. It make a difference in the sound localization.
More later, the Indy 500 will be starting soon.
roddyama said:
to a little lesser extent impact, should match or "blend" across the two ranges. I've alway believed that the dispersion pattern through the x-over range is also important.
Completely agreed!. Impact and dispersion are the two major areas of concern I had when suggesting this
However, given the restriction imposed by Rocky _grin_ and WAF it may be the "best" solution - partilcularly if he is more concerned about "tone" than "slam"
To some extent, I would be hopeful that the benefits of dipoles on room modes at lower frequecies might offset the disadvantages.
There are several posters using similar configs with success over at AA.
Rocky's restrictions are considerable to say the least _big grin_
One thing I do suggest is that Rocky finalize the TAD horn prior to deciding on a final game plan - I seriously believe that his wife may in fact allow him greater options once she _hears_ what something really nice can sound like -
roddyama said:
Well I guess Ken and I must part ways here. I'm not a big proponent of dipoles..
I'm not a big proponent either - And have never actually _heard_ any - but have been really looking hard at these solutions in the past year.
BTW, I prefer stereo subs also _bigger grin_
FWIW - I think Roddy is providing excellent balance for my comments in this thread -
Rocky - what type of room dimensions are we talking about? Music preferences?
regards
Ken L
Ken;
room size is approximately 5,5m*8m, where the speakers will be placed in each corner of the shortest (5,5m) wall. ceiling is about 2,35m +/- 10cm...
Music preferences are extremely wide... Ranging from chilled Coldplay, Red hot chili pep, U2, Björk, to classic music.. (Händel, Bach, Beethoven ++).... to chilled nordic trance, to more violent music like Prodigy or Rammstein.
Also, when consuming large ammounts of alcohol, the punk albums tend to hit the CD transport.. Lagwagon, NOFX, Pennywise, and those crazy Rage against the machine guys, etc., but that's NOT critical listening 😀 😀
room size is approximately 5,5m*8m, where the speakers will be placed in each corner of the shortest (5,5m) wall. ceiling is about 2,35m +/- 10cm...
Music preferences are extremely wide... Ranging from chilled Coldplay, Red hot chili pep, U2, Björk, to classic music.. (Händel, Bach, Beethoven ++).... to chilled nordic trance, to more violent music like Prodigy or Rammstein.
Also, when consuming large ammounts of alcohol, the punk albums tend to hit the CD transport.. Lagwagon, NOFX, Pennywise, and those crazy Rage against the machine guys, etc., but that's NOT critical listening 😀 😀