we have no problem to vote without any machine. takes also only seconds, is fail safe (except the vote-office catches fire) and cheap.
You are so wrong. Europeans have such a distorted view of America due to their socialist leaning press. Where on earth did you get the idea that Kerry's platform could be run as a moderate conservative? He is out of touch as is proven by his defeat by over 3million votes. Does it enter your head that the media creates the image most of us see in order to push their agenda. The LA Times and NY Times are both left leaning and are willing to jump all over a non-proven negative Bush story but only praise Kerry in the face of all of his negatives. There are many more examples that you never see in your press and due to most bloggers being left leaning you get the wrong picture of what is really happening here.jeff mai said:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=508969#post508969
from a fascistic systems point of view our press may be socialistic...
markp said:
It is mighty convenient to be able to dismiss factual information just because its source doesn't share your worldview. Explain how this differs from being a member of a cult.
Owners of all the media companies answer to one thing - the bottom line? They still act under a huge fear of being labelled as unpatriotic.
And don't talk to me about my press. I'm American, bub!
The bottom line....that's why Fox News is doing so well and CNN is going down hill in the ratings. People are tired of the slant most of the US media is putting on the truth. It is obvious that the 'facts' that came out of the exit polls were wrong. My evidence, look who won. Where is your proof? You 'cult' analogy is just your way of saying what I believe is not as valid as what you believe. Guess what, it is.jeff mai said:
yea, americans are tired about the truth, they want lies.
And i will not belive the bushists have won the election without fraud. But i see the logic now: its a lie Bush has won, but the americans like the lie better than the truth.
And i will not belive the bushists have won the election without fraud. But i see the logic now: its a lie Bush has won, but the americans like the lie better than the truth.
This comment is what I would expect from someone who knows nothing about what they are talking about. I see the logic now, europeans just think they are the only ones who are right to decide what america should do. News flash, Bush won fair and square. The only lie is what you are trying to put out about the election. But, hey, you people elected Hittler so your judgement is hardly good.till said:
markp said:
Telling people what they want to hear sells more Twinkies. That's the only thing your statement proves.
markp said:
I was merely pointing out some alternative information supporting the idea that voting machines should have paper trails. I don't have evidence that voting results were tampered with, but short of a confession there wont be any evidence because there is no way to recount the votes. This is my point - we need a paper record of voting.
markp said:
No it isn't, I'm willing to accept information that can be supported by evidence, regardless of who's mouth it comes from. There is ample evidence that posters in this thread do not think the same way, instead rejecting ideas with no consideration given whatsoever. To see how "belief" can be a dangerous thing, read on.
The real fact of the matter, is that America and GWB are judged on their actions by the rest of the world. It isn't hard to subtract media spin if your brain is working.
The fact is that America invaded Iraq against the wishes of the UN, on grounds that were very shaky*, is seen as a gigantic act of hypocrisy by the rest of the world. You can't spin this.
(*and very shaky ground it was, though somehow many Americans don't know this. Somehow they "believe" there was evidence, when in fact there was none - not a scrap.)
Evidence or not, the only meaning of this is that most of America sees itself as having the right to act unilaterally and against the wishes of the rest of the world. This is seen as dangerous and bullying behavior by the rest of the world and rightly so!
Even if GWB and his staff "believed" they had evidence and were within their right to invade, this doesn't make it OK. Acting on a hunch and against the wishes of a coalition you helped to build and force others to abide by is not a way to win friends.
And the excuses that come from GWBs mouth are incredible. "We didn't think there'd be this much resistance." I have to ask what planet he's from! Any thinking person could have predicted what's going on in Iraq right now and, guess what, many did! Somehow, GWB and staff never got the memo. Why? Because dissenting views aren't encouraged - they are labelled as unpatriotic and propaganda from those commie liberals.
So, you say, well, now we've invaded Iraq - we were wrong about WMD, but we've unseated a murderous dictator so it's a good thing? Why isn't the rest of the world cheering with us? Maybe they're wondering what's coming next.
BTW, I'm not as liberal as you might think. I simply believe GWB is stupid. And I know he's dangerous. I don't trust *anyone* willing to gamble with lives and country based on a "belief". Let's run America based on facts.
Somehow, in the USA, intelligence = elite.
@markp - first, get the name straight.
2. Hitler "won" with a popular vote of only 32%, which does not constitute a majority, but due to the many parties splitting the popular vote they gained the majority of all parties.
3. Hitler had no mandate to engage in a war, just as I do not think you gave bush a mandate for building an empire - which certainly is the aim of the neocons around him - see : http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/LOB411A.html
4. Hitler and his party gained ab solute power by a coup - and put all opposition into Concentration Camps - they were the first to enjoy those, not jews.
5. It wasn't "you people", but a previous Generation. And the Germans have paid in many ways for the atrocities they committed - I as of yet have to hear that any American Government paid for atrocities committed in Vietnam, Chile, El Salvador, Iraq, Panama, Cambodia.
You better read your own history how America in securing resources and "containing" communism committed crimes against humanity, before you blame anybody else. Americans seem - because of a lack of historical knowledge and amnesia or a blind spot when it comes to their own wrongdoings - to think they are beyond reproach, or that this reproach when compared to others is rather small. The latter maybe the case when compared to the millions sacrificed by stalin and hitler, but their wrong is no excuse of the wrongs the USA has and is right now committing.
2. Hitler "won" with a popular vote of only 32%, which does not constitute a majority, but due to the many parties splitting the popular vote they gained the majority of all parties.
3. Hitler had no mandate to engage in a war, just as I do not think you gave bush a mandate for building an empire - which certainly is the aim of the neocons around him - see : http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/LOB411A.html
4. Hitler and his party gained ab solute power by a coup - and put all opposition into Concentration Camps - they were the first to enjoy those, not jews.
5. It wasn't "you people", but a previous Generation. And the Germans have paid in many ways for the atrocities they committed - I as of yet have to hear that any American Government paid for atrocities committed in Vietnam, Chile, El Salvador, Iraq, Panama, Cambodia.
You better read your own history how America in securing resources and "containing" communism committed crimes against humanity, before you blame anybody else. Americans seem - because of a lack of historical knowledge and amnesia or a blind spot when it comes to their own wrongdoings - to think they are beyond reproach, or that this reproach when compared to others is rather small. The latter maybe the case when compared to the millions sacrificed by stalin and hitler, but their wrong is no excuse of the wrongs the USA has and is right now committing.
audio-kraut said:
As a true American actually believing in the quoted document below, I find it deeply saddening that it is used as justification for the current conflict in Iraq while it has been ignored as it suits America's interests at practically all other times. Hypocrisy indeed.
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. -- Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
What a lot of the folks of markp's kind seem not to realize: America was up to GWB - despite all the mentioned wrongdoings - still a beacon of hope in this world, a hope based in part on the document above cited, and also the actions of America during and after WW2.
At one time - not so long past - Ameriva was still admired even in most of the muslim nations. One man (or the group around) was - with the backing of apparenly the majority of the American People - able to change this in less than four years.
But this act of invading a country that was a non agressor, the throwing over board of a quantity of international agreements and the bullying of other nations - economically or diplomatically - to join an "unjust war" has for many people worldwide put the US into the catagory " Rogue State". And please, do not blame it on any particulare whatever leaning press.
It astonishes me always how little political sense - beside the historical - the majority of Amerivc ans seem to have when using the word Socialism or Comunism. I like to hear someone like markp to explain what those terms stand for.
At one time - not so long past - Ameriva was still admired even in most of the muslim nations. One man (or the group around) was - with the backing of apparenly the majority of the American People - able to change this in less than four years.
But this act of invading a country that was a non agressor, the throwing over board of a quantity of international agreements and the bullying of other nations - economically or diplomatically - to join an "unjust war" has for many people worldwide put the US into the catagory " Rogue State". And please, do not blame it on any particulare whatever leaning press.
It astonishes me always how little political sense - beside the historical - the majority of Amerivc ans seem to have when using the word Socialism or Comunism. I like to hear someone like markp to explain what those terms stand for.
You all obviously are biased against the US. I cant argue with people that are not willing to see both sides. 40 countries went with us to Iraq, that is not unilateral. The major countries that did not were doing illegal businness with Iraq in the oil for food scandal and did not want to get caught. So, you might not like what we do but others do like it. Can you say that your system is perfect? Also remember, your press controls what you all see and hear as much if not more than ours does. To say that we like being lied to or we knowingly accept lies is just stupid. It is something only someone that only wants to believe that they are right would impose on us. I'm just glad I'm here are your stuck in you own world of false impressions and lies about it.
no, but against those 50% of 60% who vote a fascistic goverment, that starts war guided by profit thinking. They are in economic war with the EU, in civil war with venezuela, columbia and some more, and throw bombs without justification on iraq and we will see were else shortly. They kill hundredthousands and you support them- You will be cooked in hell for that.
till said:
if there is a "Hades" then there must be a Heaven, correct?
I hardly think the US is in an economic war with the EU, and most certainly not with Germany. In fact, many European countries run trade surpluses with the US. Our biggest trade partners are Canada, China, Mexico, and Japan.
Last year the US ran a trade deficit of $12bn with France, $39bn with Germany, $15bn with Italy, $8bn with Sweden, and had a $10bn surplus with Netherlands, $5bn surplus with Belgium.
btw, French and Italian wine growers are in a much bigger economic contest with Australia and South Africa, and of all things Hungary is really starting to get its act together.
Yeah, the wine business in Western Europe is in some pain. Chile, Argentina, and South Africa are putting lots of pressure on the supermarket-level stuff (95% of what's produced). Hungary, Slovenia, Moldova, and Romania are all coming on strong. Turkey will be quite a contender once it's allowed to join with the rest of Europe.
What I see is that guys with high-end established designations (classed-growth Bordeaux, glamor Rhônes like Hermitage, lieux-dits and 1er cru Burgundies) are swimming in demand and money. Everyone else is swimming in unsold wine.
What I see is that guys with high-end established designations (classed-growth Bordeaux, glamor Rhônes like Hermitage, lieux-dits and 1er cru Burgundies) are swimming in demand and money. Everyone else is swimming in unsold wine.
but the "wine business" is something almoust unimportant here... some kind of folklore, not business. Of course "theme park land" should have not business else than folklore, in an amerikan view.
That unimportant folklore business represents about $30,000,000,000 in revenue per year. You may think of these farmers as marginalized clodhoppers, but they're responsible for a LOT of export business.
till said:
by the way "theme park along the Marne" lost $150mm last year. I agree, it has been a disaster for French shareholders and the banks. Europe is so fortunate to have a Carcassonne to visit instead of Euro-Disney. Eisner should have been swept off the stage 10 years ago.
I would not dare tell a Frenchman in any department that the wine biz is unimportant. Even a nice, aged Reisling is OK once in a while.
Sy -- just knocked off the last of my '99 Chateau Neuf's --
it is, of course, much more important as Rheinmetall or so, as an fraction of those multimillards above are yours...
wine may be little importnat for france, but not for a country with about no agriculture. Wine is that important, even the 5th larges producer of red wine, argentina, did export about nothing.
economic war we talk airbus, arms &weapons industrie, steel, and of course, IP, as the US tries to buy the european comission and force amerikan law over us, so we have to pay some amerikan companies for every product that uses a wheel - because for sure an american has a patent for the wheel somwere.
wine may be little importnat for france, but not for a country with about no agriculture. Wine is that important, even the 5th larges producer of red wine, argentina, did export about nothing.
economic war we talk airbus, arms &weapons industrie, steel, and of course, IP, as the US tries to buy the european comission and force amerikan law over us, so we have to pay some amerikan companies for every product that uses a wheel - because for sure an american has a patent for the wheel somwere.
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