Uppgrading the analog stages of a computer soundcard?

[demogorgon]

hi everybody!

I, as many others I use my computer as a source for audio.
The quality of these solutions isn't exsactly the "fi" of hifi..

offcource, insted of bying a new card that costs more than my amps and speakers put together, i'd like to improve what i already have.
I'm currently using a Hercules Fortissimo III 7.1 soundcard.
i't one of the cheaper 7.1 solutions around, but sounds ok at the price.
I'd like to make it better offcource.

does anyone have any pointers for me as to what to uppgrade, why, and how?
I'v been serching a lot, googeling and looking on the foruj, but there is very litle info on the subject, and so i turn to you guys.

hope you guys can help me out a litle here..
really appreciate it!

regards
marius

 

[Havoc]

RME.

 

[demogorgon]

http://www.rme-audio.com/

am i correct?
why this link? i'l try to find out..

edit: this is a commercial site, not much use to me, cant afford anything of it as i wrote above..

 

[autoexec]

i know this isn't for your card, but it atleast points you to people you can ask about this kind of thing
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38123

 

[jaycee]

If you really want to do this, build an external DAC and feed the SPDIF output into it. There are many difficult/impossible to defeat obstacles with getting hifi quality sound out of a PC - there is an absolute crapload of EMI/RFI of allkinds to get around, then the dirty switchmode based supply that is only +12/-12v. Then to top it all off, you're working with ultrasmall SMD components.

There's a whole plethora of external DAC designs you could use that accept an SPDIF input signal, and any of these would be better than trying to modify the card itself.

 

[Geek]

Is this the time for one of us tube guys to jump in and say, "Throw in a 6DJ8 in there"? 😀

(been done before - http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002may/bch20020606012073.htm )

 

[demogorgon]

If you really want to do this, build an external DAC and feed the SPDIF output into it. There are many difficult/impossible to defeat obstacles with getting hifi quality sound out of a PC - there is an absolute crapload of EMI/RFI of allkinds to get around, then the dirty switchmode based supply that is only +12/-12v. Then to top it all off, you're working with ultrasmall SMD components.

There's a whole plethora of external DAC designs you could use that accept an SPDIF input signal, and any of these would be better than trying to modify the card itself.

yes, this could offcource be a possibility, but i would like to keep pc audio in the computer, and the only digital out i have is optical, and i dont think i have the required skill or knowledge to come around that obstackle.

as for the links provided: thanks!

Il look into them a litle later, as my neighbor is nagging like crazy for me to play Counter Strike with him on his new PC 😀

cheers
marius

 

[TC]

The RFI inside computers is an overrated fear. There's some. No more than a cheap dvd player would have. I have ben using a VRS system with a Lynx L-22 for a couple of years now. I think the best way to upgrade a soundcard is with the power supply. The analog outs are probably fine. Clean the AC and you will hear a difference.

TC

 

[purplepeople]

I don't agree about the analog output. In fact, I know that they are quite bad for most soundcards. While better than average for soundcards, the SNR is still poor for the Hercules. It is even less than my CD portable.

demogorgon: what is the noise spec for your amps?

Note: I found this test on the web - http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/hercules-fortissimo71/

and these are the specs and test results quoted from it:

The Cirrus Logic CS4294-JQ codecs' specs:

* 20bit 4-channel output and 2 18bit stereo-ins with the fixed sampling frequency of 48 kHz;
* Dynamic range: 87 dB A (DAC), 85 dB A(ADC);
* SNR + THD 74 dB A;
* Vrms = 1 V.

Mode of operation: 16 bits 44 kHz

Frequency response (40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.01, -0.02
Noise level, dB (A): -86.6
Dynamic range, dB (A): 86.5
THD, %: 0.0040
Intermodulation distortions, %: 0.016
Channel crosstalk, dB: -86.1



🙂ensen

 

[TC]

Don't use a game-boy card. The analog outs on the lynx go up to 10v. They will drive the grid of an 845. Fantastic sound that changes sampling rates on the fly. Alot of these make the music you buy.

Lynx L-22


The Lynx L22 is a professional audio interface card intended for use in the most demanding audio recording, post-production, broadcast, and measurement applications. Based on LynxTWO technology, the L22 can capture or generate signals beyond the audio bandwidth up to 100 kHz with extreme accuracy.

Using proprietary circuit topologies and custom components in the analog stages coupled with the latest converter technology, the L22 achieves a 117 dB dynamic range. Most importantly, advanced noise-rejection design techniques are incorporated to maintain this performance in real world use from computer to computer.

Glitch-free recording and playback is assured due to the L22's large on-board buffers and extremely efficient zero-wait state DMA engine. These features provide tolerance to system latencies and significantly reduce load on the host CPU.

The onboard digital mixer is extremely flexible allowing the L22 to adapt to any studio or workstation configuration. Each of the mixer's 16 outputs is capable of mixing signals from 16 physical inputs or 16 playback tracks with 32-bit precision. A choice of dither algorithms is available on each input to mask low-level artifacts while reducing word widths to 8, 16, or 20 bits.

The L22 provides I/O expansion via its two LStream™ ports. Combined, these ports allow 16 channels of additional I/O from external ADAT or AES/EBU devices. The ports can also be used to route data and synchronize to other L22's or LynxTWO's to create high channel-count systems.

As with other Lynx products, the L22 provides unprecedented compatibility with a wide range of platforms and operating systems. Lynx device drivers are developed in-house to insure quality and robustness.

Download the Lynx L22 Brochure (287KB PDF), or just look at the full Lynx L22 hardware specifications.

200kHz sample rate / 100kHz analog bandwidth (Supported with all drivers)
Two 24-bit balanced analog inputs and outputs
+4dBu or -10dBV line levels selectable per channel pair
24-bit AES3 or S/PDIF I/O with full status and subcode support
Sample rate conversion on digital input
Non-audio digital I/O support for Dolby Digital® and HDCD
32-channel / 32-bit digital mixer with 16 sub outputs
Multiple dither algorithms per channel
Word, 256 Word, 13.5MHz or 27MHz clock sync
Extremely low-jitter tunable sample clock generator
Dedicated clock frequency diagnostic hardware
Multiple-board audio data routing and sync
Two LStream™ ports support 8 additional I/O channels each
Compatible with LStream modules for ADAT and AES/EBU standards
Zero-wait state, 16-channel, scatter-gather DMA engine
Windows 98 / ME / NT / 2000 / XP Drivers
Macintosh ASIO 2.0 Drivers
Suggested US List Price $749
Optional LStream Expansion Modules:
LS-ADAT: Provides sixteen-channel 24-bit ADAT optical I/O, US List Price $249 (Internal).

LS-AES: Provides eight-channel 24-bit/96kHz AES/EBU or S/PDIF digital I/O, US List Price $469 (Internal).

 

[SY]

I'm scratching my head in total puzzlement. The very inexpensive sound card I'm using is good to -130dB S/N, measured. There's some hash visible in spectral plots at higher frequencies, but it's so far down as to be ridiculous. And 0.001% THD. CD playback is superb sounding and dead-quiet to the ear. What else could I want?

 

[purplepeople]

That's better than an Audigy. Which one? Maybe it is as easy as an upgrade for demogorgon.

🙂ensen.

 

[demogorgon]

The RFI inside computers is an overrated fear. There's some. No more than a cheap dvd player would have. I have ben using a VRS system with a Lynx L-22 for a couple of years now. I think the best way to upgrade a soundcard is with the power supply. The analog outs are probably fine. Clean the AC and you will hear a difference.

TC

Hi TC!

hmm.. the card i spowerd from the PCi port, that can make outside powering hard. ther are no nice PDF's for computer parts like there are for electronics parts.. if i knew what pins it gets it's power from, i could just cut them and solder on a litle something to allow me to connect a outside PS.

but i got to know ehat to cut, and what to not 😉
i don't have a oscioloskope to check what comes in where either, so i gotta have some some info.

I don't agree about the analog output. In fact, I know that they are quite bad for most soundcards. While better than average for soundcards, the SNR is still poor for the Hercules. It is even less than my CD portable.

demogorgon: what is the noise spec for your amps?

Note: I found this test on the web - http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/hercules-fortissimo71/

and these are the specs and test results quoted from it:

The Cirrus Logic CS4294-JQ codecs' specs:

* 20bit 4-channel output and 2 18bit stereo-ins with the fixed sampling frequency of 48 kHz;
* Dynamic range: 87 dB A (DAC), 85 dB A(ADC);
* SNR + THD 74 dB A;
* Vrms = 1 V.

Mode of operation: 16 bits 44 kHz

Frequency response (40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.01, -0.02
Noise level, dB (A): -86.6
Dynamic range, dB (A): 86.5
THD, %: 0.0040
Intermodulation distortions, %: 0.016
Channel crosstalk, dB: -86.1



🙂ensen

Hi ensen!

thats a lot of specs, now, what to do with'em? 😀

Don't use a game-boy card. The analog outs on the lynx go up to 10v. They will drive the grid of an 845. Fantastic sound that changes sampling rates on the fly. Alot of these make the music you buy.

and because they do, they cost a lot.

This card is what i have, and I can't afford a better one. 🙁

I'm scratching my head in total puzzlement. The very inexpensive sound card I'm using is good to -130dB S/N, measured. There's some hash visible in spectral plots at higher frequencies, but it's so far down as to be ridiculous. And 0.001% THD. CD playback is superb sounding and dead-quiet to the ear. What else could I want?

your a lucky man, if you are so content with your sound.

as for me, im not happy with my sound, and that's why i'm here.

 

[SY]

Actually, it IS an Audigy; my test setup is described in the Jiggy thread over in Tubes. I'm doing some 6DJ8 measurements at the moment and it does a fantastic job of sorting out the tubes' distortion characteristics.

When I'm not doing that, it sounds great playing music. And quite quiet.

 

[TC]

Volvo rules!

fer-sure

I got my minty 87 5 speed 240 wag/brick loaded for CES. 1400 mi through the snow yipee!

TC

 

[purplepeople]

Actually, it IS an Audigy; my test setup is described in the Jiggy thread over in Tubes. I'm doing some 6DJ8 measurements at the moment and it does a fantastic job of sorting out the tubes' distortion characteristics.

When I'm not doing that, it sounds great playing music. And quite quiet.

It's got to be a newer model, maybe the 4? The last time I looked at the Audigy it was no better than 100dB and more than $150. I guess with the proliferation of motherboard audio chips, the sound cards have gotten really cheap. Take my ignorance.... please!

🙂ensen.

With apologies the guy with the big nose.

 

[Petter]

Actually, it IS an Audigy; my test setup is described in the Jiggy thread over in Tubes. I'm doing some 6DJ8 measurements at the moment and it does a fantastic job of sorting out the tubes' distortion characteristics.

When I'm not doing that, it sounds great playing music. And quite quiet.

I checked out your thread but it was not clear to me what was measured.

Are you sure that you are actually measuring the soundcard, and not simply digital stuff without passing through the soundcard at all? Last time I checked, achieving anything near such numbers was cutting edge.

My experience with Audigy stuff is not that good. (However, you MIGHT be able to get such numbers through an all-digital path)

Petter

 

[purplepeople]

demogorgon: As to specs, I really only know basics...

I forgot the exact number but 16/44 PCM translates to a dynamic range of about 96dB for a "perfect" DAC. If the Hercules has an 85dB DAC, then the signal is being compressed. Even if any following components have a higher range, the best you can do to the speakers will be 85dB. Of course, the music material may already be compressed by the recording studio, but that is not at issue here.

For signal-to-noise ratio, it is an indication of the noise and how far below the signal level it is. Since there are two specs for SNR, it looks as if the ADC is 74dB and the line inputs are 85dB. This is usually a hint of how clean the outputs are. If they are the same (and I find that they are often very close), then we can expect the output stage after the DAC is no better than 85dB and possibly as low as 74dB. This is consistent with the analog output from a typical CD-ROM player, which I've often seen at around 75dB. But, since you are not using that connection, let's be generous at 85dB.

For comparison, my very old Panasonic portable CD player has a dynamic range of around 92dB and a SNR at the output of 90dB. When I plug it into a cheap Soundworks 2.1 speaker system, it comes alive. Plug it back into the soundcard and it becomes dull and compressed again... plus there is hissing when idle. Of course, it is an older Soundblaster with range of around 80dB and SNR of 75dB. Your Hercules is better, but I expect that it too will flatten most CD players.

If you can't afford an Audigy as SY owns, then the external DAC project would be the way to go.

🙂ensen.

 

[SY]

Paid $95US at Fry's.

I did a closed-loop measurement (one without the test circuit, but with the buffer box) as a control; the results were quite satisfying and quite capable of resolving some pretty low distortion numbers. In 24/96 mode, these are the sort of numbers you'd expect. Distortion results were quite repeatable, less than half a dB variation when I'd measure, disconnect, wait 10 minutes, then measure again. And I note that they were comparable to the same numbers generated in a different lab using fancier instrumentation.

 

[demogorgon]

fer-sure

I got my minty 87 5 speed 240 wag/brick loaded for CES. 1400 mi through the snow yipee!

TC

hehe!
my 87 740, black metallic with a whooping 2.1 liters engine at 114 HP and rear wheeldrive, and buildt like a tank really is the perfect first car.

really love it!

demogorgon: As to specs, I really only know basics...

I forgot the exact number but 16/44 PCM translates to a dynamic range of about 96dB for a "perfect" DAC. If the Hercules has an 85dB DAC, then the signal is being compressed. Even if any following components have a higher range, the best you can do to the speakers will be 85dB. Of course, the music material may already be compressed by the recording studio, but that is not at issue here.

For signal-to-noise ratio, it is an indication of the noise and how far below the signal level it is. Since there are two specs for SNR, it looks as if the ADC is 74dB and the line inputs are 85dB. This is usually a hint of how clean the outputs are. If they are the same (and I find that they are often very close), then we can expect the output stage after the DAC is no better than 85dB and possibly as low as 74dB. This is consistent with the analog output from a typical CD-ROM player, which I've often seen at around 75dB. But, since you are not using that connection, let's be generous at 85dB.

For comparison, my very old Panasonic portable CD player has a dynamic range of around 92dB and a SNR at the output of 90dB. When I plug it into a cheap Soundworks 2.1 speaker system, it comes alive. Plug it back into the soundcard and it becomes dull and compressed again... plus there is hissing when idle. Of course, it is an older Soundblaster with range of around 80dB and SNR of 75dB. Your Hercules is better, but I expect that it too will flatten most CD players.

If you can't afford an Audigy as SY owns, then the external DAC project would be the way to go.

🙂ensen.

ensen!
thanks for your outfilling post!

as for for "flat music" you'r totally right. it's not only flat, i't 2d. it lacks the depth dimmention entirely. but for games it does it's job ok.

and so: what i'm looking at here, is making myself a 8 channel dac that accsepts optical imputs.
i then take it that all 8 channels are being transmitted through the optical? how do i filter out those channels to each D\A?

but most important: Is'nt dacs expensve and hard to make? i dont think those A\D chips come in dil's to put it that way..

(oh man am i over my head now..)

-a somewhat confused marius