Hey all, as I finished building more subwoofers last year, I am looking to upgrade my mids during 2021. I think im going to construct another couple of simple relfex-boxes, I mostly play indoors in smaller venues so I do not think horns would make much sense for me, it's not a "festival main stage"-soundsystem. The dancefloor always ends up being right in front of the stack.
I am going to have just two mids, so I want to get a couple of great quality ones.
Im upgrading from Fane Sovereign 12-300 (~80€ each), so I do wish to get a noticeable difference in sound quality.
Do anyone here have experience with these specific drivers? The tuning would be from 160hz to wherever it sounds best to cross with my BMS 4554", so probably between 1600-1800hz.
Eighteen Sound - Professional loudspeakers
"The 12ND710 has been specifically designed for use either as a midbass driver in compact 2-way reflex enclosures or as a direct radiating or horn loaded, dedicated midrange drive"
I am also open to any other suggestions for some great mid-drivers to couple with my Fane Colossus 18XB & BMS 4554, between the ~250-350€/each range.
I am going to have just two mids, so I want to get a couple of great quality ones.
Im upgrading from Fane Sovereign 12-300 (~80€ each), so I do wish to get a noticeable difference in sound quality.
Do anyone here have experience with these specific drivers? The tuning would be from 160hz to wherever it sounds best to cross with my BMS 4554", so probably between 1600-1800hz.
Eighteen Sound - Professional loudspeakers
"The 12ND710 has been specifically designed for use either as a midbass driver in compact 2-way reflex enclosures or as a direct radiating or horn loaded, dedicated midrange drive"
I am also open to any other suggestions for some great mid-drivers to couple with my Fane Colossus 18XB & BMS 4554, between the ~250-350€/each range.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yep, it'll be an upgrade. Demodulation in the motor will help, particularly at high levels.
Also check out the Faital Pro 12FH520. I use 2x 10FH520 per side, and find them consistently excellent.
Chris
Also check out the Faital Pro 12FH520. I use 2x 10FH520 per side, and find them consistently excellent.
Chris
18 Sound is good stuff, since the engineers came from RCF.
I own several drivers from them and never had problems.
If You are upgrading from the Fane's there is a substantial difference in SPL
97.5 to 101 dB, means they appear twice as loud. Can Your Highs cope with them ?
How many dancers ? 450W is not much, unless You stack several speakers.
For weddings with 100-200 people we use an average 2 to 4000W of power.
Two Horns & two tops.
A wedding cake ceremony on the outside & they will be blown away from the firework curtain.
I own several drivers from them and never had problems.
If You are upgrading from the Fane's there is a substantial difference in SPL
97.5 to 101 dB, means they appear twice as loud. Can Your Highs cope with them ?
How many dancers ? 450W is not much, unless You stack several speakers.
For weddings with 100-200 people we use an average 2 to 4000W of power.
Two Horns & two tops.
A wedding cake ceremony on the outside & they will be blown away from the firework curtain.
3dB isn't twice as loud it's just enough to notice, but I doubt that driver will even be that much louder after processing.
I'm having a hard time seeing how a pair of 12" mids could have any hope of keeping up with that stack of subs, don't you think dual 12" mids would have a better chance? I do. That would give you a real 3-6dB increase in output, the CD horn must be padded down 8-10dB now so it's got lots of room to play with.
I'm having a hard time seeing how a pair of 12" mids could have any hope of keeping up with that stack of subs, don't you think dual 12" mids would have a better chance? I do. That would give you a real 3-6dB increase in output, the CD horn must be padded down 8-10dB now so it's got lots of room to play with.
Depends on the program material and system EQ. If you're running the subs 20dB hot (not unheard of), then you might find the subs hit the limiters first.
Chris
Chris
That driver in a flat BR will give you about 140hz F3. if you want to cross lower to the subs you might want to consider a driver with a higher Qts but that driver will be closer to 96db.
Thank you for your replies!
I think its what i'll go with then. The Faital looks good but doesnt seem to be as easily available as the 18sound
Should've maybe specified that im also looking for a decent upgrade in sound quality, not in loudness. Since I spent somewhere between 600-700€/sub, but my mids cost me like 120€ each, I think its time to stop being so cheap about them!
It isn't, but I should've mentioned that I am also aiming for better sound quality, not just dB. I used my current 2x 80€ mids with my previous setup, which was 2x double 18" subwoofer and two of those sub on top as kicks, and they kept up well enough with that. My new subs are better than the old ones, but I think after a decent driver upgrade, even if its not much louder, should do the job.
But I agree there is definitely room for more mids, and later on I would not mind adding two more, but I don't think I have a budget for it now
The highs at the moment should do the job, since they have always been a little too loud for me. I've always had to turn them a bit, so I do think they'll keep up. Of course if they wouldnt, it would be a time for an upgrade there aswell!
Theres usually only between 50-100 people, the places I rent/the bar where I often play have pretty small dancefloors and this is quite a small city
I think its what i'll go with then. The Faital looks good but doesnt seem to be as easily available as the 18sound
Should've maybe specified that im also looking for a decent upgrade in sound quality, not in loudness. Since I spent somewhere between 600-700€/sub, but my mids cost me like 120€ each, I think its time to stop being so cheap about them!
It isn't, but I should've mentioned that I am also aiming for better sound quality, not just dB. I used my current 2x 80€ mids with my previous setup, which was 2x double 18" subwoofer and two of those sub on top as kicks, and they kept up well enough with that. My new subs are better than the old ones, but I think after a decent driver upgrade, even if its not much louder, should do the job.
But I agree there is definitely room for more mids, and later on I would not mind adding two more, but I don't think I have a budget for it now
The highs at the moment should do the job, since they have always been a little too loud for me. I've always had to turn them a bit, so I do think they'll keep up. Of course if they wouldnt, it would be a time for an upgrade there aswell!
Theres usually only between 50-100 people, the places I rent/the bar where I often play have pretty small dancefloors and this is quite a small city
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The BMS 4554 has a broadband sensitivity of about 110dB while your mids are 98-100dB at most, you should have at around 10dB of pad or level adjustment on them now.
Is this system actively powered and processed?
I got a Behringer DCX2496, T.Amp TSA 4-700 for mids+tops, QSC PLX 1602 for two kicks and a Crown XLS 5000 for 4 subs
I also have a Behringer Ultragraph Pro for EQ, but haven't used it yet cause I got it last year so I could start learning how to properly EQ and the DCX interface is a bit clumsy for that. Im pretty noob when it comes to EQing
Haven't even ******* tested the 4 new subwoofers other than testing them quickly in my apartment, because I can't take it anywhere due to covid & its winter in here, so can't get them outside either. A bit frustrating but it is what it is
I also have a Behringer Ultragraph Pro for EQ, but haven't used it yet cause I got it last year so I could start learning how to properly EQ and the DCX interface is a bit clumsy for that. Im pretty noob when it comes to EQing
Haven't even ******* tested the 4 new subwoofers other than testing them quickly in my apartment, because I can't take it anywhere due to covid & its winter in here, so can't get them outside either. A bit frustrating but it is what it is
Lovely system!
I haven't used that 18sound driver but it is top end and should be a significant upgrade over the Fanes.
Getting really good quality measurements of your system is where I would go for SQ upgrades if you haven't yet. Then you can take all your measurements into vituixcad and design your processing. Consider things like the polar response and driver time alignment.
I haven't used that 18sound driver but it is top end and should be a significant upgrade over the Fanes.
Getting really good quality measurements of your system is where I would go for SQ upgrades if you haven't yet. Then you can take all your measurements into vituixcad and design your processing. Consider things like the polar response and driver time alignment.
4x mids up from 2x would mean that you had even higher sensitivity, and lower distortion. That's an easy way to do it.
Or, if you used x4 of the 18sound units, you'd end up using 1/4 of the power for the same SPL, again big distortion benefits. (Visually, it would look a little less sub heavy as a benefit)
Designing them as trap cabinets could help with dispersion too.
Alternatively horn loading the mid drivers would have the same effect, assuming you can meet the XO points and sort directivity out. I feel that this would end up going towards a 4 way system though - not exactly a minor upgrade..
Or, if you used x4 of the 18sound units, you'd end up using 1/4 of the power for the same SPL, again big distortion benefits. (Visually, it would look a little less sub heavy as a benefit)
Designing them as trap cabinets could help with dispersion too.
Alternatively horn loading the mid drivers would have the same effect, assuming you can meet the XO points and sort directivity out. I feel that this would end up going towards a 4 way system though - not exactly a minor upgrade..
The crossover is one of the primary things to define sound quality, because it determines the frequency response.
What I mean is: do you base your crossover on gated measurements? What target slopes are you aiming for and at what crossover frequencies? Any global equalization to meet some target curve (e.g. Harman target curve? BBC dip?)?
Fair enough. The DCX will do everything you need, the power of parametric EQs will impress when you get the chance to dig into it.
I am definitely not planning on making 4 mids now, it would require a new rack, a new amplifier, a new sound management unit & just cost too much. Might add two more mids later, but just upgrading the ones I have now will have to do. In an ideal world I would have a billion euros on my bank account, but unfortunately I don't!
The crossover points are not set in stone, I have not had the chance to try out my new subs yet and will play around with them when I get the chance and see what sounds the best to me. But it will be from around 160hz to around 1700hz/wherever it sounds the best to cross with my BMS. I am pretty amateur when it comes to the deeper knowledge of slopes/filters and so on, but fortunately theres always room for learning more!
I appreciate the comments & help from everyone, and will be going with the eighteensound!
The crossover points are not set in stone, I have not had the chance to try out my new subs yet and will play around with them when I get the chance and see what sounds the best to me. But it will be from around 160hz to around 1700hz/wherever it sounds the best to cross with my BMS. I am pretty amateur when it comes to the deeper knowledge of slopes/filters and so on, but fortunately theres always room for learning more!
I appreciate the comments & help from everyone, and will be going with the eighteensound!
No it doesn't, what gave you that idea? Multiple mids are no different that multiple subs.. they all get the same signal so no extra processor outputs are needed, and 4 mids can easily run from a single amplifier.. just get 8ohm drivers.
My t.amp is already running two mids and two tops, and my DCX has all 6 slots in use since subs and mids are all in parallel already. A splitter cable would work then?
But each channel can operate at 4ohms so you just parallel wire the two mid drivers. That is what you're doing with the subs isn't it... 2 drivers per channel?