Hello,
I have recently re-built my crossovers with Solen Hepta-Litz inductors and Solen film caps.
I measured all components including the coils before wiring.
One speaker now plays louder than the other. My soundstage is shifted to one side.
Any ideas?
Does the way you hook up a coil make a difference(regarding inner & outer leads)?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
KevinLee
I have recently re-built my crossovers with Solen Hepta-Litz inductors and Solen film caps.
I measured all components including the coils before wiring.
One speaker now plays louder than the other. My soundstage is shifted to one side.
Any ideas?
Does the way you hook up a coil make a difference(regarding inner & outer leads)?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
KevinLee
I pointed that before, when one forum member remarked about strange image shifting in his Zen amp. I don't know about coils, but capacitors are definitely directional, and in his case this was a problem. Try to measure the outer foil and position it to the load (or output, when looking at the cap). There was an explanation on the forum how to measure it, I thin in a thread about directivity in resistors.
All those assuming that you indeed measure everything correct and no mistake in soldering😉
All those assuming that you indeed measure everything correct and no mistake in soldering😉
Thanks Peter,
I know that I had to parallel caps to get the values I needed. Even though they are non polar, maybe I have a couple of them in opposite from the other crossover. I will check this.
Do any DIY members know about the coils?
Thanks
KevinLee
I know that I had to parallel caps to get the values I needed. Even though they are non polar, maybe I have a couple of them in opposite from the other crossover. I will check this.
Do any DIY members know about the coils?
Thanks
KevinLee
I don't think there is a directivity in capacitors nor resistors. For an engineering point of view, this is a non-sense...
If all the values of the components are the same as the old one, look if you did not make a mistake with the polarity of the crossover for the left and right channel.
Just my opinion 🙂
If all the values of the components are the same as the old one, look if you did not make a mistake with the polarity of the crossover for the left and right channel.
Just my opinion 🙂
Louder channel
Kevin:
Maybe you should check mid-freq and woofer drivers' polarity. Don't trust color codes, test using a 1.5 Vdc battery to identify positive terminal on all drivers and double check driver connections at the x-over to make shure positive goes to positive in spite of color codes.
When battery negative is connected to driver's negative and positive to positive driver's membrane moves outward.
Good luck and happy listening!
GEBEERB
(GoldenEarBeerBudget)
Kevin:
Maybe you should check mid-freq and woofer drivers' polarity. Don't trust color codes, test using a 1.5 Vdc battery to identify positive terminal on all drivers and double check driver connections at the x-over to make shure positive goes to positive in spite of color codes.
When battery negative is connected to driver's negative and positive to positive driver's membrane moves outward.
Good luck and happy listening!
GEBEERB
(GoldenEarBeerBudget)
Capacitors ARE directional, definitely, absolutely, SOMETIMES!
Disk caps, paper caps, and many other kinds are non-directional, like resistors, BUT!!!, electrolytic capacitors are very directional! So, check this to be sure, because it could be causing the problem.
Disk caps, paper caps, and many other kinds are non-directional, like resistors, BUT!!!, electrolytic capacitors are very directional! So, check this to be sure, because it could be causing the problem.
Capacitors and Inductors aren't directional if you view them as a model.
But the well-known tritec coils for instance are wound in a way that they are directional, at least a bit. One lead goes in from the outside, the other comes out from the inside.
So is the same with capacitors, as Peter Daniel said, you have an outer foil. So there's some difference between the two leads.
Anyone know of a method to measure this, with a capacitor? (it's fairly easy to see with an inductor)
But the well-known tritec coils for instance are wound in a way that they are directional, at least a bit. One lead goes in from the outside, the other comes out from the inside.
So is the same with capacitors, as Peter Daniel said, you have an outer foil. So there's some difference between the two leads.
Anyone know of a method to measure this, with a capacitor? (it's fairly easy to see with an inductor)
I suspect component irregularities. Check each component against the matching one used in the other crossover. You do not need to verify the value to do this. You only need to observe if they behave the same under an identical test situation.
If you have access to an audio oscillator, just hook the component in series with a resistor across the output of the oscillator. Resistor value can be arrived at by experimentation, I would suggest starting with 1K Ohm. If you read this page, you probably have a large selection extra resistors
Measure the voltage drop across the resistor using 4 or 5 frequencies. Low, medium, high and very high frequency. Maybe 20 Hz, 1K Hz, 10K Hz and 20KHz. A Digital voltmeter (on the AC Volts scale) should be fine for this because you are looking for differences, any bandwidth problems in the DMM will be constant. Use more frequencies if you have the time and ambition.
Just take care to measure each component against it’s partner under the same conditions. It is OK to use one value of resistor to test one pair of caps and a different value to test a different pair of caps.
You are looking for differences such as: This cap had 1.75 Volts at 10K Hz, the matching Cap had .25 volts at 10K Hz.
The ones that measure differently need to be investigated further. How you proceed after that depends on who you bought the components from. At least you will not be returning coils, when you got a bad cap.
Report back what you find,
Aud_Mot
If you have access to an audio oscillator, just hook the component in series with a resistor across the output of the oscillator. Resistor value can be arrived at by experimentation, I would suggest starting with 1K Ohm. If you read this page, you probably have a large selection extra resistors
Measure the voltage drop across the resistor using 4 or 5 frequencies. Low, medium, high and very high frequency. Maybe 20 Hz, 1K Hz, 10K Hz and 20KHz. A Digital voltmeter (on the AC Volts scale) should be fine for this because you are looking for differences, any bandwidth problems in the DMM will be constant. Use more frequencies if you have the time and ambition.
Just take care to measure each component against it’s partner under the same conditions. It is OK to use one value of resistor to test one pair of caps and a different value to test a different pair of caps.
You are looking for differences such as: This cap had 1.75 Volts at 10K Hz, the matching Cap had .25 volts at 10K Hz.
The ones that measure differently need to be investigated further. How you proceed after that depends on who you bought the components from. At least you will not be returning coils, when you got a bad cap.
Report back what you find,
Aud_Mot
Caps that are directional usually have a stripe, or other visual indicator of which side is + or minus. If the caps are matched, make sure they're oriented the same way. If they're not, what are you doing using them in a crossover network! 🙂
I have never used higher quality than Solen for XO except for tweeters.
My experiance has not been good with this caps, usualy dull sounding, I suspect they have a high dielectric absortion plus hysteresis and yes they vary from each other, specialy with values over 5u.
Solution? I don't use caps in XO anymore. Yes this is drastic but it can be done.
Anyway, I didn't solve your problem, sorry.
And for series inductors I tie the inner lead to the amp and the outer to the load, don't ask why.
My experiance has not been good with this caps, usualy dull sounding, I suspect they have a high dielectric absortion plus hysteresis and yes they vary from each other, specialy with values over 5u.
Solution? I don't use caps in XO anymore. Yes this is drastic but it can be done.
Anyway, I didn't solve your problem, sorry.
And for series inductors I tie the inner lead to the amp and the outer to the load, don't ask why.
Listen guys,
If you ever took apart a solen capacitor you would see that the leads are attached to metal disk that is sprayed on the adge of the coil,so the connection dose not start at the beginning or end of the winding.so all this dirctionality thing is pure nonsense.
the guy has made some sort of error in the hookup.
I`ve done it sooo many times myself.
If you ever took apart a solen capacitor you would see that the leads are attached to metal disk that is sprayed on the adge of the coil,so the connection dose not start at the beginning or end of the winding.so all this dirctionality thing is pure nonsense.
the guy has made some sort of error in the hookup.
I`ve done it sooo many times myself.
Nappylady said:
Bi-Polar electrolitic capacitors are 2 polarised caps connected in series.. with the like poles together.. (not sure weather its + or -)
SisterOfMercy said:
Here's some info how to find an outer foil http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=121813#post121813
Just last week I was choosing caps for my new speakers crossover and the cap orientation made a big difference. I was concentrating only on a tweeter with a single series cap and with many caps the difference was always the same. In one position (outer foil to the load) the highs had more sparkle, were more agressive and better detailed, with the vocal somewhat forward. When the cap was connected in opposite direction, the presentation was more relaxed and laid back, with softened trebles and vocal mixed more with the background. While the latter was more appealing and pleasing in a long run it seemed rather artificial and I always preferred position where outer foil was to the output (or to the load).
Thank you,
I'm glad there was an method of finding out the outer foil of the capacitors, that didn't involve using a scope.. I don't have one, well.. I do, but it's a 50's tektronix, and it doesn't work.. And I also don't have an lab power supply..
But I do have a millivoltmeter.. (or something like that, I hope it's accurate enough)...
Ah, well.. it's only a series-XO...
But back to the original subject, if the difference is large, you might want to check up on different resistor values, and the soldering joints..
I'm glad there was an method of finding out the outer foil of the capacitors, that didn't involve using a scope.. I don't have one, well.. I do, but it's a 50's tektronix, and it doesn't work.. And I also don't have an lab power supply..
But I do have a millivoltmeter.. (or something like that, I hope it's accurate enough)...
Ah, well.. it's only a series-XO...
But back to the original subject, if the difference is large, you might want to check up on different resistor values, and the soldering joints..
Direction Can Matter
Hi Kevin,
The advice above regarding component directionality is good advice.
Also checking individual driver polarity may point to the problem.
i would connect both cabinets in parallel to the same amp channel and check for differences.
This may entail listening to only one driver per box (woofer, mid or tweeter) to compare individual driver level and polarity matching.
Another parameter not mentioned is cable/wire direction, and this can cause the sideways image shifting that you mention.
Remeber this is a STEREO system, so you need to ensure that both channels are EXACTLY the same, and this includes component and wire directions.
As an example in my early days I rewired a turntable with ok quality interconnect cable, and I could not understand why the image was shifted sideways, even though the levels were matched.
Months later by accident I ran my speaker wires with directions reversed, and this shgifted the image sideways on all sources.
When I unrstood this error I corrected it, and then I realised my mistake with the turntable and corrected the interconnect directions also, and central imaging was restored on all sources.
This may or may not be your error, but to remove this error you need to ensure that all directions are the same, channel to channel.
For the experiment it is worthwhile to reverse one channel of your cdp to amplifier interconnect and you will hear what I mean.
Eric.
Hi Kevin,
The advice above regarding component directionality is good advice.
Also checking individual driver polarity may point to the problem.
i would connect both cabinets in parallel to the same amp channel and check for differences.
This may entail listening to only one driver per box (woofer, mid or tweeter) to compare individual driver level and polarity matching.
Another parameter not mentioned is cable/wire direction, and this can cause the sideways image shifting that you mention.
Remeber this is a STEREO system, so you need to ensure that both channels are EXACTLY the same, and this includes component and wire directions.
As an example in my early days I rewired a turntable with ok quality interconnect cable, and I could not understand why the image was shifted sideways, even though the levels were matched.
Months later by accident I ran my speaker wires with directions reversed, and this shgifted the image sideways on all sources.
When I unrstood this error I corrected it, and then I realised my mistake with the turntable and corrected the interconnect directions also, and central imaging was restored on all sources.
This may or may not be your error, but to remove this error you need to ensure that all directions are the same, channel to channel.
For the experiment it is worthwhile to reverse one channel of your cdp to amplifier interconnect and you will hear what I mean.
Eric.
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