First off I'm brand new to this and have VERY little experience but I want to learn so this post is for a learning project not to try and build the world's best amp out of cheap parts. I have some quality guitar amps already so rather than suggest go buy a better amp, I'm hoping to get some help.
I have read a lot of blogs, forums and watched a ton of youtube vids but can't seem to get what I need, so I'm here looking for basic knowledge.
Here's what I have... a $35 10w guitar amp. I want more out of it and wanted to learn on it rather than my nice amps. It's labeled as "esteban g-10" ... yup, the crap you get when you buy one of his guitars (don't worry, I didn't buy his guitar, just the amp for a project).
I wanted to upgrade the 5" speaker to a 6" one. Problem #1 then arises.... I don't know if I should get a 4ohm or 8ohm speaker?
I can not find the skematik for this amp since it's a cheap amp probably made by multiple factories overseas (each week made by a new factory that could do it cheaper I presume) so do I go safe and get 8ohm and possible lose volume?
If anyone knows how to find the skematik I'd love the help. Tips on what ohm speaker to get? I found a 6" Jensen (15w) in both the 4 and 8 ohm version online and am tempted to try one out.
I'd love to know more on how to get more power and am willing to learn how to do the work but honestly, I am NEW to this and although I can solder, I don't know 1/2 the things forums talk about... where do I start?!?!? If I posted a pic of the board maybe that would help people tell me what to replace? I'm not trying to get a 50's tweed tube amp sound out of this, just improve the sound but really the point is to learn about this kind of stuff. Remember when you first started? That's me
Sorry for the long post. Thanks in advance for the help!!!
I have read a lot of blogs, forums and watched a ton of youtube vids but can't seem to get what I need, so I'm here looking for basic knowledge.
Here's what I have... a $35 10w guitar amp. I want more out of it and wanted to learn on it rather than my nice amps. It's labeled as "esteban g-10" ... yup, the crap you get when you buy one of his guitars (don't worry, I didn't buy his guitar, just the amp for a project).
I wanted to upgrade the 5" speaker to a 6" one. Problem #1 then arises.... I don't know if I should get a 4ohm or 8ohm speaker?
I can not find the skematik for this amp since it's a cheap amp probably made by multiple factories overseas (each week made by a new factory that could do it cheaper I presume) so do I go safe and get 8ohm and possible lose volume?
If anyone knows how to find the skematik I'd love the help. Tips on what ohm speaker to get? I found a 6" Jensen (15w) in both the 4 and 8 ohm version online and am tempted to try one out.
I'd love to know more on how to get more power and am willing to learn how to do the work but honestly, I am NEW to this and although I can solder, I don't know 1/2 the things forums talk about... where do I start?!?!? If I posted a pic of the board maybe that would help people tell me what to replace? I'm not trying to get a 50's tweed tube amp sound out of this, just improve the sound but really the point is to learn about this kind of stuff. Remember when you first started? That's me
Sorry for the long post. Thanks in advance for the help!!!
What is the power amplifier?, it's probably an IC - so read the number off it.
Also measure the voltage rail it runs off - these two items will allow us to tell you what impedance speaker you need.
Essentially if it's designed for an 8 ohm speaker and you fit a 4 ohm, it will try and output 20W instead of 10W, and kill itself.
Also measure the voltage rail it runs off - these two items will allow us to tell you what impedance speaker you need.
Essentially if it's designed for an 8 ohm speaker and you fit a 4 ohm, it will try and output 20W instead of 10W, and kill itself.
Agree and add.
After we know what the actual power/impedance is (supply the data asked by Nigel) , yes, the 6" Jensen Mod in the proper impedance will be a huge improvement compared to the generic original speaker.
Killer little speaker.
And in the future, maybe you build a better amp and will be able to use this speaker there.
After we know what the actual power/impedance is (supply the data asked by Nigel) , yes, the 6" Jensen Mod in the proper impedance will be a huge improvement compared to the generic original speaker.
Killer little speaker.
And in the future, maybe you build a better amp and will be able to use this speaker there.
It is very easy to measure the impedance. Multimeter will read DC resistance of the voice coil, which is usually only a bit less than the nominal rated impedance.
I don't know if change from 5" to 6" is much of an upgrade. At least I wouldn't do it. Bigger speaker will improve things but I'd step up to at least 8-incher or probably 10" - 12", which however likely requires a cabinet change too. It will be much louder and "fuller" sound with a bigger speaker but then it comes down to whether a 30W cheapie amp is really the right platform to waste considerable amount of money to modifications.
Power does not equal loudness. If you want loud then look for speakers with high sensitivity rating, if you want headroom and clean response at loud volume levels then look for amps with high output power (>50W). Generally trying to rebuild amps to higher power is not worth the effort because - to make a long story short - it tends to require an entire rebuild of the unit. Often its just simpler and less expensive to buy an amp with the right power rating from the start.
I don't know if change from 5" to 6" is much of an upgrade. At least I wouldn't do it. Bigger speaker will improve things but I'd step up to at least 8-incher or probably 10" - 12", which however likely requires a cabinet change too. It will be much louder and "fuller" sound with a bigger speaker but then it comes down to whether a 30W cheapie amp is really the right platform to waste considerable amount of money to modifications.
Power does not equal loudness. If you want loud then look for speakers with high sensitivity rating, if you want headroom and clean response at loud volume levels then look for amps with high output power (>50W). Generally trying to rebuild amps to higher power is not worth the effort because - to make a long story short - it tends to require an entire rebuild of the unit. Often its just simpler and less expensive to buy an amp with the right power rating from the start.
Hi,
TBH its vey cheap amp, various versons but similar electronics,
rated at 12W mains input, i.e. real power output is less, but
I guess it will do about 10W with loads of distortion involved.
You won't learn much about good amps playing with a cheap amp.
Being small it must be sealed back for any semblance of bottom end.
IMO 2" of acoustic foam inserted in the back will do it some good usually.
Changing the speaker to a different driver can do a lot of things.
Make it more suitable for acoustic rather than electric for instance.
However both of the two basic styles are double port vented :
And here things get very awkward in terms of changing the driver.
You can't just fit any other driver you like, it much match the box.
You need to know things like Vas, Fs and Qes of the driver, internal
box volume, work out the tuning of the dual ports and possibly change
the tuning to suit a chosen new driver suitable for the box volume.
Can be done - but you need to know your stuff. Having said all
that, a driver that is way better (and more expensive) than the
original should be a lot better, but it has to suit the cabinet.
rgds, sreten.
Personally I converted the headphone out of my very cheap
8" bass practice amplifier to a speaker out, and used to use
it with one of the 15" PA speakers we use for live, stored
where we used to practice together, it worked very well.
TBH its vey cheap amp, various versons but similar electronics,
rated at 12W mains input, i.e. real power output is less, but
I guess it will do about 10W with loads of distortion involved.
You won't learn much about good amps playing with a cheap amp.
Being small it must be sealed back for any semblance of bottom end.
IMO 2" of acoustic foam inserted in the back will do it some good usually.
Changing the speaker to a different driver can do a lot of things.
Make it more suitable for acoustic rather than electric for instance.
However both of the two basic styles are double port vented :
And here things get very awkward in terms of changing the driver.
You can't just fit any other driver you like, it much match the box.
You need to know things like Vas, Fs and Qes of the driver, internal
box volume, work out the tuning of the dual ports and possibly change
the tuning to suit a chosen new driver suitable for the box volume.
Can be done - but you need to know your stuff. Having said all
that, a driver that is way better (and more expensive) than the
original should be a lot better, but it has to suit the cabinet.
rgds, sreten.
Personally I converted the headphone out of my very cheap
8" bass practice amplifier to a speaker out, and used to use
it with one of the 15" PA speakers we use for live, stored
where we used to practice together, it worked very well.
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So being new I'm not exactly sure what an IC number is, I'm providing the info I see listed. Input is 120v 60Hz and the output shows 11VX2 0.5
The speaker tested to be 8 ohms so I'll stick with that (and get the Jensen 6" 15 w) so I don't blow it up.
Teemuk, I'd love to go to 8" but can't fit one in the box that I have and this project is really about learning on this one, but thanks for the input. I'd like to up the watts if that's possible. I know that may be pricey. The project isn't about the money though. I just don't know electronics and I feel like as a musician I should know more about what I use.
Sreten, the second pic you posted is the amp I have. Any idea how I can get the skematik? I see there are lots of variables to boosting power, and sadly those terms you used I'm not familiar with... that's where I get lost. I read forums, watch vids and try to learn these things but since they have no "meaning" to me it's hard to conceptualize and apply them.
Why don't they teach this kind of stuff in school anymore?!? My Dad and grandpa can build anything and my generation got left behind on a pliable skills. Feeling frustrated. Not giving up though....
The speaker tested to be 8 ohms so I'll stick with that (and get the Jensen 6" 15 w) so I don't blow it up.
Teemuk, I'd love to go to 8" but can't fit one in the box that I have and this project is really about learning on this one, but thanks for the input. I'd like to up the watts if that's possible. I know that may be pricey. The project isn't about the money though. I just don't know electronics and I feel like as a musician I should know more about what I use.
Sreten, the second pic you posted is the amp I have. Any idea how I can get the skematik? I see there are lots of variables to boosting power, and sadly those terms you used I'm not familiar with... that's where I get lost. I read forums, watch vids and try to learn these things but since they have no "meaning" to me it's hard to conceptualize and apply them.
Why don't they teach this kind of stuff in school anymore?!? My Dad and grandpa can build anything and my generation got left behind on a pliable skills. Feeling frustrated. Not giving up though....
Rebuild from scratch? Of course you can, after all the amp is just a box with stuff in it. remove the stuff and you can build whatever you want in the box.
The basic problem here is you have the equivalent of a lawn tractor, and you are thinking you can turn it into a sports car.
IC number. If you look inside the thing, along the edge of the circuit board somewhere, you will fins a little part screwed to the metal or to a metal piece. It will have 5 legs in a staggered pattern. It probably says something like TDA2030 on it, though other numbers are possible. heck it might fool me and have a fancier part, but I doubt it. These amps are cheapies. IC means Integrated Circuit.
I assume you mean make it louder. Power is not loudness. If you could double the power of the thing it would only be three decibels louder. That is not much, about enough to notice and not much more. A new speaker that was 3 decibels more efficient would accomplish the same exact thing but without changing the circuits.
I applaud that you want to learn about your stuff. First lesson is realistic expectations. Changing the speaker is THE single most effective way to change the sound of an amp. Realistically, if you had some circuit knowledge, you could tweak th tonal response of the amp easy enough. But increasing power is not easy. The amp starts with a power supply - the part that makes all the operating voltages. The amp itself just controls that power instant to instant to move the speaker to the music. The only way to increase the power is to enlarge the power supply.
Think about your car. If you want more horsepower, you need a larger engine. Changing the transmission won;t increase the power.
To increase the power supply would mean from the start a new power transformer. Once you increase the voltage and current capability of the power supply, THEN you could look into what you;d have to do to control it with your amp circuit. And all of that amounts to what you said - gutting it and building something new in it.
Why don;t they teach electronics in schools anymore? Because in most places there are darn few jobs in electronics.
The basic problem here is you have the equivalent of a lawn tractor, and you are thinking you can turn it into a sports car.
IC number. If you look inside the thing, along the edge of the circuit board somewhere, you will fins a little part screwed to the metal or to a metal piece. It will have 5 legs in a staggered pattern. It probably says something like TDA2030 on it, though other numbers are possible. heck it might fool me and have a fancier part, but I doubt it. These amps are cheapies. IC means Integrated Circuit.
I assume you mean make it louder. Power is not loudness. If you could double the power of the thing it would only be three decibels louder. That is not much, about enough to notice and not much more. A new speaker that was 3 decibels more efficient would accomplish the same exact thing but without changing the circuits.
I applaud that you want to learn about your stuff. First lesson is realistic expectations. Changing the speaker is THE single most effective way to change the sound of an amp. Realistically, if you had some circuit knowledge, you could tweak th tonal response of the amp easy enough. But increasing power is not easy. The amp starts with a power supply - the part that makes all the operating voltages. The amp itself just controls that power instant to instant to move the speaker to the music. The only way to increase the power is to enlarge the power supply.
Think about your car. If you want more horsepower, you need a larger engine. Changing the transmission won;t increase the power.
To increase the power supply would mean from the start a new power transformer. Once you increase the voltage and current capability of the power supply, THEN you could look into what you;d have to do to control it with your amp circuit. And all of that amounts to what you said - gutting it and building something new in it.
Why don;t they teach electronics in schools anymore? Because in most places there are darn few jobs in electronics.
Hey Enzo, thanks for the reply. I know I've got a lawn mower (crank start, rusted and probably a leak in the fuel line) to work with. I don't expect to turn this into boutique amp by any means. If I can improve the sound (tone) and learn something along the way I'll consider it a success. Bonus if I can then apply this knowledge to other amps, my mics, pickups etc
I don't need more power/volume per se...I've got big amps for volume. I'd love to improve the tone at louder volumes though. That's where I'd like to learn what to tweet and modify. That's why I thought I needed the skematik.
Sorry if my post hasn't been too clear. Obviously a noob here and not sure of the terms. I'm a musician, not an electrician
I don't need more power/volume per se...I've got big amps for volume. I'd love to improve the tone at louder volumes though. That's where I'd like to learn what to tweet and modify. That's why I thought I needed the skematik.
Sorry if my post hasn't been too clear. Obviously a noob here and not sure of the terms. I'm a musician, not an electrician
These are all good guys with good advice. But I'd recommend you start with tubes instead of transistors. Tubes are much more forgiving, as long as you're careful around high voltage.
I'd recommend a Champ kit from STF as they're about the cheapest to use acceptable parts. Simple enough you can't really go too wrong if you can solder. Unfortunately, their website has been screwy for two years now...so I guess it's just a sideline. Look around for other really simple kits. The crummiest champ will make you want to toss that transistorized beginner amp. There's a big difference between a good-sounding small practice amp and a cheap beginner amp.
I'd recommend a Champ kit from STF as they're about the cheapest to use acceptable parts. Simple enough you can't really go too wrong if you can solder. Unfortunately, their website has been screwy for two years now...so I guess it's just a sideline. Look around for other really simple kits. The crummiest champ will make you want to toss that transistorized beginner amp. There's a big difference between a good-sounding small practice amp and a cheap beginner amp.
Nice but go step by step.
As in crawl before you walk and walk before you run.
Putting a better speaker there is the first step.
In this particular case do not worry much about the numbers and parameters mentioned by Sreten, which apply to "real" cabinets with "real" speakers
In these cheapest of the cheap amps that does not happen, it's just "a box with 2 holes", no pretention of tuning but simply to vent some air and make sound less muffled or boxy.
So just enlarge the speaker hole (or make a new front baffle) , mount the Jensen, which *is* the smallest of the "real speakers" and enjoy.
If you wish to practice a nice "learning curve" might follow, say:
* 1W LM386 amp "Smokey" clone or Ruby.
* 5W TDA2003/LM383 "Craig Anderton's guitar amp"
* some of the tons of "famous tube amp to Fet" conversions available at Articles and Schematics
That alone will keep you happy experimenting for years
Of course you will need an amp to listen to them ... hope that you follow the proper path and by then you already built the 5W amp
Besides, you'll easily get 9V for the ROG pedals from its 12 to 16V supply and that's not a minor point.
You'll also need a decent speaker inside some usable cabinet .... I guess we also took care of that
As you see, there is some Logic in this Madness
* 15W TDA2030 amp.
Still fine with your Jensen Mod 15W 6"speaker which as you see goes a long way.
We are reaching garage band rehearsal levels here, or playing in a small Church.
* 25/30W amp with TDA2050 driving a 10"/12"speaker .
Jensen Mods suggested because they are still inexpensive and excellent sounding.
* 50/60W amp with LM3886 (preferred) or 70/80W with TDA7294, driving 1 or 2 12"speakers.
At this level you can play anywhere (larger venues will mike you anyway) and can get into "big league" speakers: Eminence, Jensen, Celestion, Scumback, Weber, WGS, you name it.
But it all starts with your little Esteban amp modding
As a side chain, you can get into tube amps, but that's a quite different game.
Schematics are conceptually simple (usually "less parts"), layouts often help you "build by the numbers" and that attracts many but parts are much more expensive and heavier, voltages are hairy, chassis and iron much larger , etc.
Take your pick or you can do both, but I guess starting with SS will make it easier for you to familiarize with voltage and resistance measurements, color codes, reading cryptic parts values, matching schematic-to-real-parts , etc.
Did I say cheaper?
Plus the first projects can be powered by a humble 9V battery
As in crawl before you walk and walk before you run.
Putting a better speaker there is the first step.
In this particular case do not worry much about the numbers and parameters mentioned by Sreten, which apply to "real" cabinets with "real" speakers
In these cheapest of the cheap amps that does not happen, it's just "a box with 2 holes", no pretention of tuning but simply to vent some air and make sound less muffled or boxy.
So just enlarge the speaker hole (or make a new front baffle) , mount the Jensen, which *is* the smallest of the "real speakers" and enjoy.
If you wish to practice a nice "learning curve" might follow, say:
* 1W LM386 amp "Smokey" clone or Ruby.
* 5W TDA2003/LM383 "Craig Anderton's guitar amp"
* some of the tons of "famous tube amp to Fet" conversions available at Articles and Schematics
That alone will keep you happy experimenting for years
Of course you will need an amp to listen to them ... hope that you follow the proper path and by then you already built the 5W amp
Besides, you'll easily get 9V for the ROG pedals from its 12 to 16V supply and that's not a minor point.
You'll also need a decent speaker inside some usable cabinet .... I guess we also took care of that
As you see, there is some Logic in this Madness
* 15W TDA2030 amp.
Still fine with your Jensen Mod 15W 6"speaker which as you see goes a long way.
We are reaching garage band rehearsal levels here, or playing in a small Church.
* 25/30W amp with TDA2050 driving a 10"/12"speaker .
Jensen Mods suggested because they are still inexpensive and excellent sounding.
* 50/60W amp with LM3886 (preferred) or 70/80W with TDA7294, driving 1 or 2 12"speakers.
At this level you can play anywhere (larger venues will mike you anyway) and can get into "big league" speakers: Eminence, Jensen, Celestion, Scumback, Weber, WGS, you name it.
But it all starts with your little Esteban amp modding
As a side chain, you can get into tube amps, but that's a quite different game.
Schematics are conceptually simple (usually "less parts"), layouts often help you "build by the numbers" and that attracts many but parts are much more expensive and heavier, voltages are hairy, chassis and iron much larger , etc.
Take your pick or you can do both, but I guess starting with SS will make it easier for you to familiarize with voltage and resistance measurements, color codes, reading cryptic parts values, matching schematic-to-real-parts , etc.
Did I say cheaper?
Plus the first projects can be powered by a humble 9V battery
I cannot deny the economy of a chip amp, and with the right stomp boxes on the floor you can get interesting sounds. But...IMHO you'll get off on your tone so much more with tubes! Maybe start with a solid state transistorized amp, then if you make a tube preamp you'll get 90% of the best of tube tone and emotive responsiveness, and be able to play across that clean/dirty line.
Good luck and have fun whatever you do.
Good luck and have fun whatever you do.
What is really great about starting out with the runoffgroove site as a basis:
Fet based preamps do sound really good, they overdrive nicely
They are based roughly around similar circuits used in tube amps, so you can learn what works, make some mods/tweaks easily and safely at low voltages.
You can translate that knowledge later into building a simple tube amp, or tube preamp. It's not any harder to build, but you will need to familiarize yourself with safety procedures working with the high voltages.
Who knows..you may eventually end up with a FET preamp driving a single 12AX7 tube and then to the chip amp or tube power amp. And it will sound very good...
Fet based preamps do sound really good, they overdrive nicely
They are based roughly around similar circuits used in tube amps, so you can learn what works, make some mods/tweaks easily and safely at low voltages.
You can translate that knowledge later into building a simple tube amp, or tube preamp. It's not any harder to build, but you will need to familiarize yourself with safety procedures working with the high voltages.
Who knows..you may eventually end up with a FET preamp driving a single 12AX7 tube and then to the chip amp or tube power amp. And it will sound very good...
Hey guys, little bit of research online
Esteban amp made by Belcat. I like the cabinet version the OP has, it is kinda neat.
I am figuring that the amp is also exact same as ''Fender'' Squire SP10 , Rogue, etc..
The speaker upgrade, of which has been suggested and JMFahey is completely experienced on this. Cyclecamper you are also going the tube route and there is a definite justification for suggesting that.
So what to work on next? My feeling is that once the speaker is changed, it will improve greatly the reponse. An 8 inch speaker would give a fuller tone, my preference is a 10 or 12 but not going to fit. Maybe an external jack for the amp?
Maybe a half open back would be cool.
But the overdrive on these things just does not cut it IMO. Clean is going to be fine.
Bet on one or two TL072 op amps, TDA2030 and diode clippers for the OD.
Take a picture of the insides of this amp, if you like, and post. Maybe we can get a schematic up here too. Provide some suggestions. It could be a fun learning experience.
Esteban amp made by Belcat. I like the cabinet version the OP has, it is kinda neat.
I am figuring that the amp is also exact same as ''Fender'' Squire SP10 , Rogue, etc..
The speaker upgrade, of which has been suggested and JMFahey is completely experienced on this. Cyclecamper you are also going the tube route and there is a definite justification for suggesting that.
So what to work on next? My feeling is that once the speaker is changed, it will improve greatly the reponse. An 8 inch speaker would give a fuller tone, my preference is a 10 or 12 but not going to fit. Maybe an external jack for the amp?
Maybe a half open back would be cool.
But the overdrive on these things just does not cut it IMO. Clean is going to be fine.
Bet on one or two TL072 op amps, TDA2030 and diode clippers for the OD.
Take a picture of the insides of this amp, if you like, and post. Maybe we can get a schematic up here too. Provide some suggestions. It could be a fun learning experience.
I would go at least to an 8 inch speaker, or just maybe two 6'' could fit in that particular cab, but it is excellent idea to have a switched jack to plug an external speaker cab.You can try a variety of bigger speakers! JM Fahey has mentioned the best bang for the buck will be with their Mod series if that Jensen tone is what your after.
Hey, JMFahey made mention of this, and it is a good thing...got me thinking again about it. A lot of ROG circuits can run on 12 to 16 V with better performance, slightly better headroom. There may be some slight adjustments to get the correct output at the ''pedal'' preamp stage but not much. All those entry level amps are generic, private labeled stuff I would say exactly the same base circuit for the 10W version by Belcat. All the ''big guitar brands'' sell probably as a loss leader, paired with a ''first electric'' guitar. The exception I think is Marshall's MG10, which is own design I figure. It sounds quite good, could use some tweaks, sure ...but I bought one used cheap and will get around to some minor mods on it for kicks..
Most of these have a ''Line In'' for mp3 player to practice. It completely bypasses the internal guitar preamp section of which you probably aren't happy with.
So because you want to DIY but maybe not too sure if any mods to existing amp circuit will actually make a huge difference, may I suggest you build the simple preamp board separately, plug it into the Line In of the practice amp and evaluate if you like it. Then we can help you tie that into the amp. At that point you will need a multimeter, at very least to connect the right points, and test the power supply voltage. AND you will have built it yourself, which is the point of all this I hope...
sorry for the long discussion. There are a lot of guys here who can help you on the way so don't be afraid to ask advice.
Hope you have fun!
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