upgrade from fe127en by planet-10. Suggestions?

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murphythecat8

murphythecat8

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Joined 2011
#1
hi everyone.

I LOVE after a couple of try-out the full-range sound. I just love my fonkens midrange. I plan on building two sub and add super-tweeters or maybe tweeters to a pair of full-range drivers.

Even though I love my drivers I know that theres better drivers out there.

What would be the logical step-up.

I have 1k just for the drivers...

thanks
 
#2
murphythecat8,

What type of enclosure size and room placement are you looking at? The system is primarily for music? What amp and source components are you using? These info will help forum members give you better and more informed suggestions.
 
#3
If i had that kind of money, i'd go BIG. 8" and some fancy enclose like a TL or voigt pipe. I'm currently building something around a FF85-WK, the bigger brother FF225 looks quite interesting, especially if they could get the "wizard treatment" from planet10 or similar (talking without direct experience here but i'm sure many on these forums can testify on the improvements of said modification).
 
#4
lots of questions for you.

murphythecat8: a ton of questions need to be answered.

  • if you love the Fonkens, why do you want to change them, out of curosity?
  • do you want to "retro fit" your existing cabinets?
  • if so, what do you have room for?
  • as zman01asked, primarily for music?
  • what kind of music do you listen to?
  • how big is your room?
  • what amount of power is available ?
  • does the $1k include subwoofer(s) and amplification for them?
And I do have a few recommendations and comments without knowing the answers to the above questions:

  • if subwoofer(s) are in the future, then why not do these first? And note the "s" part of "subwoofer(s)". A stereo pair will give you something that is better in every way compared to a single sub: better dynamics; soundstaging; and smaller sized subs. Smaller subs = faster responding. I like subs less than 10", but really prefer 8" ones when used in a stereo pair due to their lower mass.
  • remember to include the cost of amplification and cross-overs for the subwoofer project. These can be as simple as a good plate amp (if single sub) or amps(if stereo). Perhaps you may already have a suitable stereo amplifier, in which case a good crossover (electronic) would be needed.
  • keep the material costs of the enclosure(s) in mind.
  • use baltic birch plywood or similar. I have yet to hear a MDF cabinet that I have really liked. This point is very "controversial". My thoght is that if you are spending $100s of dollars on drivers, etc., then why wouldyou not use better materials. Here in Canada a 4'X8' sheet (exterior grade, 18mm or 3/4"), is relatively inexpensive (about $90) a sheet.
  • if you must use MDF do yourself a big favour (as per Vince Bruzzese), finish the interior and exterior. Paint is OK. MDF can "chuff", so if sealed with a good primer on both interior and exterior, the sound will improve dramatically.(A local car audio "gur" has been doing this for years, as most car audio guys don't, and he has won several national and international awards.)
  • when using your Fonkens, get them on good stands and feed them via good cable. Key here is good, which need not be expensive.
  • considering the use of "super tweeters", check with Dave (planet10) or Chris (chrisb) almost no one uses these with the Fonkens. If used with the Fonkens (without subwoofer augmentation), then the top end may very well become tilted leaving the impression of a lot lighter bass weight.
a few thoughts to consider before more fullrangers are purchased if a sub (subs) and/or supertweeters are purchased.
 
#5
I don't understand this fascination with MDF? I find it a terrible building material. It tends to crumble, the finish tends to be horrible without a veneer (and i consider a veneer "cheating", because you're not bringing out the beauty in your own wood panel, you're just using someone else's work) and it's too brittle.

Birch Plywood is decent, and i've been considering for a while to use a "sandwich" with plywood inside and a thick panel of real wood outside, finished with resin or something else that "brings out" the natural beauty and warmth of real wood.

The only plus side i see in MDF is its sonic properties, since it's a compound material it doesn't have a specific footprint and thus it's usually very stiff and deaf at all frequencies.
 
#10
Nanook said:
murphythecat8: a ton of questions need to be answered.

  • if you love the Fonkens, why do you want to change them, out of curosity?
  • do you want to "retro fit" your existing cabinets?
  • if so, what do you have room for?
  • as zman01asked, primarily for music?
  • what kind of music do you listen to?
  • how big is your room?
  • what amount of power is available ?
  • does the $1k include subwoofer(s) and amplification for them?
Click to expand...
I Discovered with my fonkens the midrange magic coming from fullrange.

I like the idea to use a FR as a wideband midrange and then add a tweeter and a sub. But I want to also consier making something like that: Breitbänder

-I love the fonkens but I know theres better drivers abnd I want to make my main speakers .

-For my new drivers yes I will need to make cabinet; but will I be using a sub of do a 3-way with a fullrange driver?

-My room is 11x11.

-I listen to jazz and rock

-my pushpull amp have 15w per channel and I have a couple of vintage SS receivers.

-I can put up to 2k for the whole project.
 
#12
ok, now I'm getting a sense of what you're after...

disclosure: I count Dave as a friend. I also write reviews for Affordable$$Audio. I have no financial ties to planet10-hifi.

murphythecat8: I'm now getting a sense of what you're after, not adding to the Fonkens but a different build all together.

a little about me: I started along the fullrange path firstly building a pair of the "JE Labs" style OBs using some Oxford J12s and some Seas surplus tweeters mounted coaxially. A pair of salvaged 2 way x-overs wereused. No values were calculated. Then I reviewed a pair of Dave's Fonkens, and (with my audio partner Mike) built a pair of the (large) Demetri monoliths, and reviewed a pair of the (much smaller) Milevas monoliths. I've also designed and built the "Spirits" which are a subwoofer assisted OB project, using stereo subs and mono plate amps (with crossovers), inspired by Seigfried Linkwitz's Orion loudspeakers. Various drivers had been tried in the OB portion. I have since built the prime sized Onken style cabinet for the CHR70eN. Dave's designs have never failed to impress me, and I have only tried the lower end models of drivers available from him. My listening room is 11-1/2ft X 19ft, but open on one side another 10 ft or so. I orientate speakers against the long wall for listening. I like jazz, orchestra, chamber, electric blues, and rock. I am not a headbanging "basshead", but my wife is 😉.

The Breitbänder looks interesting, but I am English only, so could not read the thread, and using a translator usually ends up with something not very readable.

I am thinking that (perhaps) Dave's Tyssens may be an answer. 3 years (maybe longer?) ago, I listened to what I think were Dave's prototypes and thought they were stunningly good. I defer to Dave's opinion on a lot of these questions. Perhaps tweeter assisted Tyssens may be something very nice.

To me it was not clear what your intentions were, whether you planned to re-use the Fonken cabinets and add woofers/subwoofers and tweeter and new drivers to the Fonken cabinets. Not sure if Dave's Alpair 7.3 drivers with helper woofers are what has become of the the Tyssens. (Dave, help me out).

Regardless of what helper woofers you use, they need to be very "quick", so active amplification and electronic cross-overs are a must. Big woofers need the grunt and control of a good SS amp (my opinion as I have never had a big tube amp to play with:bawling:). If your room is completely enclosed at 11ft X 11ft, I would be very carefull in the selection of (perhaps) too large of a pair of woofers.

Luckily you have a great resource here at diyaudio.com, and in particular Dave (planet10). Where in The Great White North are you located, close to Dave? If so a listening session could be arranged (but I can't speak for Dave). If close to me I could arrange one too, depending on your location (PM or email me directly or ask Dave to).

Hope I have not added to the confusion.
 
#13
okay I have done a lot of read on the matter this last week.

I need to go to various shop around and see what I like in the commercial realm.

All I know for now is that I have never encoutered such a wonderful midrange; coherant and dynamic with the fonkens I have. So this really tells me. along with a lot of read. that Im not imaginating it. the midrange coming from a fullrange is really good because of the fact that their is no crossover in the critical (voice) area.

With my little experience with the fonkens and the read I have done I dont want a full-range as my only drivers. I definitly want to go for a FAST system.

I want to keep the midrange intact so thats why im going for a full-range as my midrange driver.

I want a woofer but also tweeter or a super-tweeter to help the full-range. Probably something along the line of a cut-off around 6000 Hz and another one at around 300Hz? This is a question as I dont know exactly what to do here. I have never build anything else then a Fonken; I have never made any cross-over. All I know is that I dont want any crossovers in the crucial midrange way.

I CANT live anymore with my fonkens; I need bass and highs. I decide to start a whole new project as I want to build the best speaker available or well at least a speaker I wont want to change anytime soon; meaning going for a better FR then the one I already have; the fe127en.

What is your favorite midrange guys in the budget I have?

So yeah.

BTW I live in Canada but may be too far from you 😉 Im in quebec.



As I seem to notice: their is not a lot of loved design and I want to go for a design lot of people have tried and like.
 
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#14
If I won't be considered too close for Fonken comfort, I'd like to contribute a few comments and observations



I'm now at the age (closing on 60) were normal hearing deterioration compounded by 18yrs working in a commercial woodworking environment and slipping more than a few times on my ear protection has affected the higher frequency range of my hearing

Yup, the FE127E in the Fonken enclosure does some pretty cool things in the upper mid bass to upper midrange area

It's not perfect, but has been for me, for a long time, a perfectly acceptable compromise. It commits few sins, and is musically emotive - but I can certainly understand that some folks would like extension on the top end, and have definitely felt the need for a bit more bottom myself as well (but after almost 40yrs of monogamy, who wouldn't?)

As it turns out the "Ken" format of enclosure & tuning lends itself quite well to drivers other than the Fostex - most recently we (Planet10 et al) have been very happy with the performance of the Mark Audio Alpair7 , as well as the CSS EL70 in an appropriately tuned version . I've lost my notes on which of Mark's drivers I've heard in this enclosure, but no doubt the MA CHP70 would work as well.

Any 4" or so wide band driver will need all the help it can get to attempt to dig very deep, and there are more than a few approaches to that goal - supplementation of dedicated woofers, and/or horn loaded enclosures etc.

One that I've found to be quite practicable has been the relatively simple addition of dedicated actively powered woofers and high-pass filtering of the wide band driver (personally due to my hearing, I can barely detect the difference of a well implemented "super" tweeter) Hey, if chrisb can figure it out, it sure ain't fracken rocket science.


Murph: the Alpair 7 with stereo helper woofers (y'all need to experiment with exact XO points and slopes for personal best) would be my first suggestion

and used within their limitations, the EL70 or CHP70 ain't chopped liver either
 
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