That is great news about not using hot melt glue for the caps. The big concern is lack of safety ground. Things can happen, and not having a safety ground is not an option, especially if you are selling products to people on the basis of your 'expert' knowledge and training. Do yourself a favour, get the book I mentioned. Here is an Amazon link for you http://www.amazon.com/Building-Valve-Amplifiers-Morgan-Jones/dp/0750656956
The only excuse I can think of for not using a safety ground and three conductor cord is that you get a ground loop and hum when you try it. Well, a good builder can still construct a good, hum free, safe amplifier. If you are having difficulty achieving that, the guys here can help. I suggest looking at this link regarding grounding, safety, and ground loops Earthing (Grounding) Your Hi-Fi - Tricks and Techniques there is also a heap of other great info on that site.
This site (DIYAudio) is an amazing resource. There are some extremely talented and knowledgeable folks here who are happy to pass that knowledge on to others. I honestly don't think the guys here are jealous. Critical, yes, but you make some bold statements on your site. Your talent appears to be salesmanship. That is a great talent, but different from the advice available here. If you were smart, you would combine that talent with the resources available here to improve your product. You and your customers may like the look and sound of your amps, that is truly great. However, don't disregard safety. You may decide to take that risk yourself, but the law takes a very dim view of you deciding to take that decision on someone else's behalf when you become a seller of these dangerous products.
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Well thanks! I'm glad to see someone actually saying something nice for a change here.
Yes, the 807 cable I use will not chafe and it is "fastened" under the chassis to keep it from being pulled out. I have put this method to some serious tests and trust me, there's no worry about electrocution. This does work and look better than a grommet.
Look, I can be the nicest guy out there. If you show some respect to me, I'll gladly give it back. It was the lot of you who decided to dismember my work even before I got on this forum because I saw the extra traffic on my website and it led me here, so if I come across as short, or what ever you want to call it, you all asked for it. I won't be bullied and I won't have you disrespect my work. If you do, then expect me to react accordingly.
Got it!
Steve White
E E AMPS
And he did teach this! My amps are perfectly safe! And if you don't think they are then that's your opinion and not FACT!
Steve, I believe there is a difference between disrespect and being critical. You do make some bold claims on your site 😉 That will attract some 'critique' here. If you are open to constructive criticism, you will gain lot from this site. If you ask for help, the guys will bend over backwards for you. I asked for a little assistance designing an amp, as I am not an EE. The thread is 63 pages long, and some of the well respected guys on this forum helped design an amp with a topology that is slightly different to anything else I have seen, though it built on basic 'blocks' that have been around for ages. Even though I built the amps a year and a half ago (and they sound great), there is still discussion on how to improve the design.
If you are willing to accept that everyone can learn from open discussion, there is much to be gained from participating in this forum. 🙂
If you are willing to accept that everyone can learn from open discussion, there is much to be gained from participating in this forum. 🙂
I have been down this road before with the ground with Lance, and I trust his method of grounding. Others have challenged him as well on the issue, but his way works and is safe. I suspect he'll join in at some point and you all can ask him...
Steve
I have neither seen nor heard your amps, nor was I calling them "unsafe" per say . I was only stating that an earthed chassis is a good common safety practice and a very good idea when it comes to tube electronics, especially for sale to the public. I would not like to have a tube amp without this and have never built one so. Once again, I do not mean you offense, I would hope you would take it as only critique.
Are your chassis safety grounded or double insulated? If you answer no to both of these questions then I would argue as a point of legal fact, not opinion, that your products are not safe.
I have no doubt that your method works, that is why you use it. It is the safe that is the point of concern. I am not sure of the qualifications of your teacher. Is he qualified to make such safety assertions (a genuine question, not a wind up)? What convinces you that it is safe other than 'his word'?
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I just noticed that none of my newer audio equipment has a ground, just polarized 2 prong. Just the guitar stuff and an old 3B have grounds.
I have not pulled it all out but I suspect it will say "Class II" AKA Double D?
It is my understanding for Class II that "no single failure can result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock and that this is achieved without relying on an earthed metal casing"
Take your typical modern 2 prong (polarized) receiver. Now if the grommet on the power cord failed, would this not violate Class II? I am just wondering how that works, this is in no way an argument for 2 prong polarized, its a legitimate question as to how it's implemented today.
I have not pulled it all out but I suspect it will say "Class II" AKA Double D?
It is my understanding for Class II that "no single failure can result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock and that this is achieved without relying on an earthed metal casing"
Take your typical modern 2 prong (polarized) receiver. Now if the grommet on the power cord failed, would this not violate Class II? I am just wondering how that works, this is in no way an argument for 2 prong polarized, its a legitimate question as to how it's implemented today.
No, he didn't and there's no record of any edits on your posts. As a matter of policy, mods rarely edit posts and when they do (safety, personal info, or copyright issues), they leave a note in it.
Plastic cases, with nothing the user can touch that can become "hot." Double insulation. It's not anything a home builder can easily pull off.
Metal chassis with any circuit connections? It must be three pin otherwise it's not compliant with any safety standards. For a cottage operation, you can probably get away with it since no-one is really watching that stuff. Still, I can't imagine selling something that didn't meet basic safety requirements.
Here's a basic explanation of the various safety requirements for electrical equipment:
Appliance classes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If the grommet fails, you still have the insulation on the power cord. That is, single failure and still insulated. To have the grommet fail and the insulation on the cord, it would be a double failure. The easiest way to make for a safe power cord entry to chassis is to use a standard IEC socket.
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I gotcha, pretty obvious now. The one I was looking at was molded to the cord, so I thought that would be considered one insulator.
SY, it was just before my post #12, it's completely gone now, before it was just edited and I received a moderator warning for it.
Some may remember it was critic I gave about Miles website, just before the iPod post.
SY, it was just before my post #12, it's completely gone now, before it was just edited and I received a moderator warning for it.
Some may remember it was critic I gave about Miles website, just before the iPod post.
Ancient history, I feel like Von Schliemann.😀 Yes, pulled, not edited. No-one reported it, a mod happened to see it.
In order:
aesthetics - a matter of personal taste for which there is no accounting. This explains corderuoy trousers and Lincoln Continentals.
Circuit design - is a mix of personal taste and technical understanding and prowess. However, by and large the buying public don't give a rats patooty. They are buying based on aesthetics - see above.
Build quality; aesthetics - I prefer the look of LEAK and Quad II with turret boards and paralleled components. Many would say the chassis are too crowded on these, but the listening experience begs to differ. My own offerings more closely emulate an explosion in a hemp factory. They often sound like one too. I have hence learned that layout and dress is often a good indicator of likely circuit operation quality.
Build quality; safety - in this day and age there is no, repeat NO excuse for two wire mains systems in any hand built appliance, let alone one intended for resale. Any claims to the contrary are self-serving. The assertion that "I've had no problems so far" is purile and would make the person stating such look like a complete dolt if it had to be repeated in court...
Sales pitch - while agreeing with Miles about the desirability for technical and historical veracity, I also enjoy a good fable and story as much as the next guy - if it sells the amps and doesn't outright lie, who cares. The THD claim doesn't fall into this category - its either correct or its not...
Personally, I like the wild colour schemes - but not in the all-over spray approach. Jim at abraxas audio has a lighter and, to my way of thinking, more considered approach in this respect.
respec'
aesthetics - a matter of personal taste for which there is no accounting. This explains corderuoy trousers and Lincoln Continentals.
Circuit design - is a mix of personal taste and technical understanding and prowess. However, by and large the buying public don't give a rats patooty. They are buying based on aesthetics - see above.
Build quality; aesthetics - I prefer the look of LEAK and Quad II with turret boards and paralleled components. Many would say the chassis are too crowded on these, but the listening experience begs to differ. My own offerings more closely emulate an explosion in a hemp factory. They often sound like one too. I have hence learned that layout and dress is often a good indicator of likely circuit operation quality.
Build quality; safety - in this day and age there is no, repeat NO excuse for two wire mains systems in any hand built appliance, let alone one intended for resale. Any claims to the contrary are self-serving. The assertion that "I've had no problems so far" is purile and would make the person stating such look like a complete dolt if it had to be repeated in court...
Sales pitch - while agreeing with Miles about the desirability for technical and historical veracity, I also enjoy a good fable and story as much as the next guy - if it sells the amps and doesn't outright lie, who cares. The THD claim doesn't fall into this category - its either correct or its not...
Personally, I like the wild colour schemes - but not in the all-over spray approach. Jim at abraxas audio has a lighter and, to my way of thinking, more considered approach in this respect.
respec'
Funny. A few years back I built and sold some "unusual" looking amps (not tube). Man, did I take a beating on the forums across the world. The amps got all sorts of uncomplimentary nicknames. I just had to take my lumps. FWIW, some folks loved them. There's no accounting for taste.
Go out on a limb and they will take shots at you. 😀
Go out on a limb and they will take shots at you. 😀
I read most of this thread on my phone over the last few days while I didn't have access to reply. I can't pass judgement on the visual aspects of these amps since I have made a few visual standouts myself.
I made dozens of guitar amps on and off since I was a teenager. Most of them were sold by word of mouth similar to Steve's claims. The early ones were pretty standard designs. The last guitar amps were made when I was a partner in a automotive restoration shop. Many of those were painted in automotive paint. I was fond of the "high impact" colors used by Chrysler on their muscle cars. The colors had High Impact names like Plum Crazy (purple), Panther Pink, Hemi Orange, Sublime (green), Top Banana, and a few others I can't remember. The last guitar amp chassis were shot in Porsche Red at the same time my 1966 Mustang was painted.
None of my HiFi amps were brightly colored but several used polished aluminum, chrome, and some anodized or powder coated parts. I haven't had the time to build any amps in a few years. I don't know if I will get back to it until "retirement" comes. Either way, if you can sell your amps by letting people hear (and see) them in their own homes, go for it. That's what I did, and yes some of them sold for big $$$$, others were given away for free.
I felt compelled to post this based on what I have read here. I have never seen your amps or their schematics, but if what I read here is true, they are NOT perfectly safe. Any line (mains) powered device with a metal component that is touchable by the user which is not directly connected to a hard ground has some risk of electric shock.
The risk can be mitigated by double insulation which is the current trend. Modern HiFi systems use a dual bobbin power transformer which if certified as such is "double insulated" The primary winding is completely isolated from the secondary side circuitry by virtue of a second plastic compartment in the bobbin.
It was reported that some of your amps used vintage transformers. These and some modern copies use nothing more than paper for insulation. Now paper might be a fair insulator in Canada, but many Canadians migrate to Florida, and quite a few stay, often for the remainder of their lives.
I have lived here for 59 years and seen what Florida humidity does to vintage transformers. The paper absorbs humidity, the iron rusts, and the insulation breaks down. The transformer can develop a dead short, or it can develop a leakage current. The short of leakage path can elevate the chassis of the amp, the CD player, the turntable, and the speaker system to several hundred volts.
I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN TWICE IN MY 40+ YEARS OF ELECTRONICS REPAIRS. In one case a person was shocked, but not injured. NOTHING leaves my posession without a 3 wire line cord.
I have put some electrical safety information on my web site. If you believe that an amp with a 2 wire power cord is completely safe, I urge you to read it.
Electrical Safety
I made dozens of guitar amps on and off since I was a teenager. Most of them were sold by word of mouth similar to Steve's claims. The early ones were pretty standard designs. The last guitar amps were made when I was a partner in a automotive restoration shop. Many of those were painted in automotive paint. I was fond of the "high impact" colors used by Chrysler on their muscle cars. The colors had High Impact names like Plum Crazy (purple), Panther Pink, Hemi Orange, Sublime (green), Top Banana, and a few others I can't remember. The last guitar amp chassis were shot in Porsche Red at the same time my 1966 Mustang was painted.
None of my HiFi amps were brightly colored but several used polished aluminum, chrome, and some anodized or powder coated parts. I haven't had the time to build any amps in a few years. I don't know if I will get back to it until "retirement" comes. Either way, if you can sell your amps by letting people hear (and see) them in their own homes, go for it. That's what I did, and yes some of them sold for big $$$$, others were given away for free.
I felt compelled to post this based on what I have read here. I have never seen your amps or their schematics, but if what I read here is true, they are NOT perfectly safe. Any line (mains) powered device with a metal component that is touchable by the user which is not directly connected to a hard ground has some risk of electric shock.
The risk can be mitigated by double insulation which is the current trend. Modern HiFi systems use a dual bobbin power transformer which if certified as such is "double insulated" The primary winding is completely isolated from the secondary side circuitry by virtue of a second plastic compartment in the bobbin.
It was reported that some of your amps used vintage transformers. These and some modern copies use nothing more than paper for insulation. Now paper might be a fair insulator in Canada, but many Canadians migrate to Florida, and quite a few stay, often for the remainder of their lives.
I have lived here for 59 years and seen what Florida humidity does to vintage transformers. The paper absorbs humidity, the iron rusts, and the insulation breaks down. The transformer can develop a dead short, or it can develop a leakage current. The short of leakage path can elevate the chassis of the amp, the CD player, the turntable, and the speaker system to several hundred volts.
I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN TWICE IN MY 40+ YEARS OF ELECTRONICS REPAIRS. In one case a person was shocked, but not injured. NOTHING leaves my posession without a 3 wire line cord.
I have put some electrical safety information on my web site. If you believe that an amp with a 2 wire power cord is completely safe, I urge you to read it.
Electrical Safety
Thank you George. Excellent format and write up. Life-threatning experiences. What you have outlined can and does happen obviously. It pays to be safe and alive.
Steve......We really aren't trying to beat-up on you, seriously.....Consider all this "Peer Review".....besides all the esthetics & possibly "rushed" underhood work there is the safety issue here. If your mentor summarily said to you this three wire idea is not needed.......well he is outright wrong on this issue.
You are indeed living out on the edge here if you are selling your amps without 'three-wires'..........Your legal exposure is immense. All it takes for you to be financially ruined...for the rest of your life, ...would be one individual to be electrocuted. It need not be a lethal electrocution either.
I know the likely-hood is low but why take the chance?
Imagine a three-year-old yanking a power-cord of your machine, & it topples, fatally electrocuting said child. What are you going to say in court?? "Lance said it was OK.........Now the lot of us have said it is not. Some of us have cited laws & standards that apply.......If these "conversations" via forums become part of the courts 'evidence' .......of your culpability......Your doomed!
I don't know what the penalties for negligent manslaughter is in Canada, but they can't be good.
Do the right thing, call-up you existing customers & offer them a free "upgrade"... & pop in some three-wire sockets & cords for them. Your just Dotting your Is' & crossing your Ts here.
Wishing you the best ......
________________________________________________Rick.........
You are indeed living out on the edge here if you are selling your amps without 'three-wires'..........Your legal exposure is immense. All it takes for you to be financially ruined...for the rest of your life, ...would be one individual to be electrocuted. It need not be a lethal electrocution either.
I know the likely-hood is low but why take the chance?
Imagine a three-year-old yanking a power-cord of your machine, & it topples, fatally electrocuting said child. What are you going to say in court?? "Lance said it was OK.........Now the lot of us have said it is not. Some of us have cited laws & standards that apply.......If these "conversations" via forums become part of the courts 'evidence' .......of your culpability......Your doomed!
I don't know what the penalties for negligent manslaughter is in Canada, but they can't be good.
Do the right thing, call-up you existing customers & offer them a free "upgrade"... & pop in some three-wire sockets & cords for them. Your just Dotting your Is' & crossing your Ts here.
Wishing you the best ......
________________________________________________Rick.........
- amps doesn't have safety gnd
- that amp , pictured underneath - is baaad rats-nets
- writings in both news article and site is full of hogwash , intended to sound nice and special
in any case - good luck to both - maker and his customers
- that amp , pictured underneath - is baaad rats-nets
- writings in both news article and site is full of hogwash , intended to sound nice and special
in any case - good luck to both - maker and his customers
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