Humbleness is what lacking in this world, and thats my most annoyance.
After 50 pages i think i have enough.
Steve, let us know how we can make you feel more comfortable.
we are all fellow DIYER here.
After 50 pages i think i have enough.
Steve, let us know how we can make you feel more comfortable.
we are all fellow DIYER here.
Steve only joined this forum to defend his product as a manufacturer, remember?
It's only February, we have time for 50 more pages.
It's only February, we have time for 50 more pages.
Let me show you my muscles and you will see I have no reason to stay humble. 😀
Erm, you don't sell much staying humble Tim. Nothing wrong with spicing up your product. People don't buy tube amps because of their distortion numbers anyway.
This may have been the initial case,
However I would think that it is not the main reason now.
Where else could he go and get such engaging conversation..LOL
Tube Cluedo..and pick and mix fun..😀
Cassiel has a point when we depart from the "feel" of the music and make cold measurement the only aim we might miss the point of DIY Audio..
Regards
M. Gregg
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Well, defend away!
I don't want Steve to be uncomfortable defending his work, so I'm I'n for 50 more I guess.
Oh, and by the way I have nothing to defend so for the next 50 just all ears.
FYI- this is the type of comment I get all the time from strangers. This is why I continue doing this, and this is why my amps sell. To see the entire comment, go to my web site and read it for yourself. It's the last one at the bottom just before me reply to him....
I found your site , after looking for circuits using various valves. I must say that after seeing your amplifiers, it bought me out in a very hot flush. These are wonderful pieces of work not only in performance but in looks and style. For many years, manufactures have tried to hide everything until we just get a plastic box that makes a noise, and a noise is all it is. and after a couple of years when it breaks, they will go and buy another box that just makes a noise. your designs are not only just good to look at, but sound good as well. and will perform for many years to come, Recently, as an electronics engineer, I came across a 1954 KB radiogram that had been standing in the garden for four years, all be it wrapped in clingfilm....
Steve
I found your site , after looking for circuits using various valves. I must say that after seeing your amplifiers, it bought me out in a very hot flush. These are wonderful pieces of work not only in performance but in looks and style. For many years, manufactures have tried to hide everything until we just get a plastic box that makes a noise, and a noise is all it is. and after a couple of years when it breaks, they will go and buy another box that just makes a noise. your designs are not only just good to look at, but sound good as well. and will perform for many years to come, Recently, as an electronics engineer, I came across a 1954 KB radiogram that had been standing in the garden for four years, all be it wrapped in clingfilm....
Steve
I guess,
This is the point of the floating paraphase..tune in the emotion..lose the sterile number crunching..🙂
Perhaps the idea is if you have an ear for what people like, then your in favour..(Sales)
It can be the best measuring amp in the world if people don't like the sound its worthless..?
You know Mr Morrison says similar comments on his blog..regards sound.
If it sounds electronic is it music..?
Regards
M. Gregg
This is the point of the floating paraphase..tune in the emotion..lose the sterile number crunching..🙂
Perhaps the idea is if you have an ear for what people like, then your in favour..(Sales)
It can be the best measuring amp in the world if people don't like the sound its worthless..?
You know Mr Morrison says similar comments on his blog..regards sound.
If it sounds electronic is it music..?
Regards
M. Gregg
No, that's not the point. The point you're talking about is enjoying the music. There are normal people out there who do just that. The point about the floating paraphase is that it sounds good and doesn't stop you from enjoying the music. As simple as that. If I were a fan of sweet sounding amps I would be listening to SE amplification. My PP amp is VERY clean. Norman H. Crowhurst says the paraphase has worse distortion numbers, but not by much. Broskie says it has more gain than the LTP but needs tweaking, I don't see that as mayor problem. It's still a valid choice. Steve and Lance proves it. I prove it. If Steve finds out that his amp has 0.1 THD instead of 0.001 I say no biggie.
Since one would like a low Mu tube for the inverter portion of the paraphase, how about one of the dissimilar dual TV Vertical output triode tubes like 6EA7/6EM7/6GL7 or any of the others. (Mu 66 & Mu 5.5) Anyone try this?
The low Mu side of these tubes has rather low output Z, becoming rock bottom output Z with the local feedback in the floating para version, so one could just put a source follower on the high Mu output side to equalize the output Z's. This would then equalize the # of coupling caps on both pathes as well.
Would be a nice fit for an amp with TV sweep tube outputs.
The low Mu side of these tubes has rather low output Z, becoming rock bottom output Z with the local feedback in the floating para version, so one could just put a source follower on the high Mu output side to equalize the output Z's. This would then equalize the # of coupling caps on both pathes as well.
Would be a nice fit for an amp with TV sweep tube outputs.
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I'm not saying the floating paraphase can't be used for a good PI, all I'm saying is it can be "tuned" to produce what would be regarded as good sound. (This is a personal choice and may not be linked to measurement) I'm not saying it isn't a valid option for a good amp.
What you have to take into account is the old bass and treble settings they tend to be different for each person..now if you were to measure the output it would not be the same. So what i'm saying is if you deliberately move the resistor settings to add something are you not shaping the sound..ie moving it from neutral. Again this may be great if it gives the sound you want. (I'm not saying you do this)
I would not be suprised to see Steve have .1% THD in fact I would expect it..That still dosen't mean it isn't good to listen to..
Regards
M. Gregg
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Its fairly easy to take a known circuit and tune it by ear. It is possible to take variations on known circuits and tune them by ear. I doubt that too many people can go into circuits that have not been explored before or use tubes that have never been used for audio before without being a "lab monster".
I am not talking about simple stuff, I am talking about screen drive, 350 watt per channel sweep tube amps, cathode follower output stages, mosfet PowerDrive and so forth. I am an engineer, I have worked as an RF designer for the last 39 years, and I have learned how to apply modern methods and test equipment to vacuum tube amps.
These tools were simply not available to old school "masters". The FFT analyzer (sound card + PC + software) makes it possible to see the harmonic spectra in real time while tuning an amplifier.
It is now possible to take a music track on a PC play it through an amplifier which is running into a real loudspeaker load, record the amplifier output, scale the results to the same level, subtract off the original input signal, and look at when, how and why the amp distorts during transient conditions. How cool is that? This was the "science" that led to the development of PowerDrive.
Yes, it is possible to make an amp measure very good and sound like crap. A good "lab monster" will learn to use all his tools to develop a good amp. Ears are, and always will be the first tool, since they are the consumer of the amps output. All the lab stuff just add more eyes into the sound for those who know how to use them. That comes with practice. You need to analyze the amps that measure great, yet have no "soul", and look at the good sounding ones.
It has a lot to do with harmonics, distortion, and dynamics. It is possible to make tube amps that measure well below .1%. Most of mine are in the .1 to .5% range at 1 watt and go up from there depending on the size of the amp. The big ones can stay below .5% at 50 watts, because they go to 150!
Distortion numbers at ".001" are meaningless without knowing the test conditions. A number in that range requires a lot of negative feedback, which would be almost impossible with an output transformer included in the loop (stability criteria). If the output transformer is outside the feedback loop, the tube amp can be made very clean, but the transformer will add its own distortion. Whether this type of amp would sound good or not, I don't know.
Either way I am not here to dispute the numbers, since people buy the amps, they obviously sound good to some people. That's what counts in the end. How you get there.....it's up to you.
Can you make make good sounding amps without equipment? I did it for years. As I started collecting test equipment, I learned more and more about what affects the sound. A good scope is a requirement. You can use a CD player and a test disc for a signal generator (to a point), The PC FFT analyzer was the first real eye opener, and I am still learning about transients, recovery time, and phase modulation effects.
When you stop learning you start growing old, when you start growing old, you start dying.....
Oh, throwing the heavy metal around in the gym helps fend off the old age too. I stepped into a gym for the first time when I was Steve's age. That was 12 years ago.....
Now, regarding "testimonials".
EVERY manufacturer (almost every, I do NOT) puts up glowing testimonials regarding their product(s). Nobody puts up the email that told them where to put it, or that they were otherwise unhappy or dissatisfied. IF you got none of them ever, you've not been doing it long enough. But that is another story.
But, that's not where I am going exactly.
The question really is, concerning the testimonials, what was the customer listening to before he got one of (in this case) Steve's amps? What is the frame of reference??
If the frame of reference is a Japanese receiver/amp built in the last 20 years or so then any tube amp would present a different enough presentation to please a potential customer.
For the record, I do not usually like the sound of pentodes or beam tetrodes. My speculation is that there are harmonics introduced by either or both the difference in the transfer curve between it and a triode; an effect mostly mechanical in nature of the screen grid.
Either way they do not sound the same to me at all, even when they are "strapped" for triode.
Btw, Steve have you tried to strap the outputs for triode yet?
And are you using them in ultra-linear or fixed bi-azz? 😀
_-_-bear
EVERY manufacturer (almost every, I do NOT) puts up glowing testimonials regarding their product(s). Nobody puts up the email that told them where to put it, or that they were otherwise unhappy or dissatisfied. IF you got none of them ever, you've not been doing it long enough. But that is another story.
But, that's not where I am going exactly.
The question really is, concerning the testimonials, what was the customer listening to before he got one of (in this case) Steve's amps? What is the frame of reference??
If the frame of reference is a Japanese receiver/amp built in the last 20 years or so then any tube amp would present a different enough presentation to please a potential customer.
For the record, I do not usually like the sound of pentodes or beam tetrodes. My speculation is that there are harmonics introduced by either or both the difference in the transfer curve between it and a triode; an effect mostly mechanical in nature of the screen grid.
Either way they do not sound the same to me at all, even when they are "strapped" for triode.
Btw, Steve have you tried to strap the outputs for triode yet?
And are you using them in ultra-linear or fixed bi-azz? 😀
_-_-bear
Been away for awhile.........Steve, hope I'm not one of those on your ****list. Your call....I am so glad you decided to rewire your amps to three-wire.
I have been trying to put together a 12B4 SE, and with few resources to find/obtain a proper isolation Transformer.......I have been terribly tempted to "cheat".....not follow safety 'procedures', by using a "dangerous" transformer.
I will not, I can wait.....till something comes up.
Perhaps it is because our house & several in this country, are not grounded. Any leakage values gets you shocked here. All my gear has a charge in the chassis'.......just yesterday I grabbed my DMM....just curiosity. 102 VDC. A small capacitance for sure....It surely could be more given the type of gear & malfunction.
One need not reveal secrets about our creations..........our lives, or anything else for that matter.
These paraphase circuits are beyond me as I have not studied them......I'm in the SE camp...& don't "believe" in stitching a signal together. It kinda sounds SS with all the "error correction" babble.
Hopefully, these round and round discussions have given you some new ideas & insights as well as telling you something "old news".
Bit off topic......How do we attract younger people towards tubes & amps? "They" are intent on poking at hand-held devices....& listening to music thru laptops with tiny Mini-speakers....perhaps some mini-loudspeakers, tube driven, behind little screens on the enclosure. This is how the kids are listening to music now..........by the millions. If we can just attract that market!
__________________________________________________Rick.........
I have been trying to put together a 12B4 SE, and with few resources to find/obtain a proper isolation Transformer.......I have been terribly tempted to "cheat".....not follow safety 'procedures', by using a "dangerous" transformer.
I will not, I can wait.....till something comes up.
Perhaps it is because our house & several in this country, are not grounded. Any leakage values gets you shocked here. All my gear has a charge in the chassis'.......just yesterday I grabbed my DMM....just curiosity. 102 VDC. A small capacitance for sure....It surely could be more given the type of gear & malfunction.
One need not reveal secrets about our creations..........our lives, or anything else for that matter.
These paraphase circuits are beyond me as I have not studied them......I'm in the SE camp...& don't "believe" in stitching a signal together. It kinda sounds SS with all the "error correction" babble.
Hopefully, these round and round discussions have given you some new ideas & insights as well as telling you something "old news".
Bit off topic......How do we attract younger people towards tubes & amps? "They" are intent on poking at hand-held devices....& listening to music thru laptops with tiny Mini-speakers....perhaps some mini-loudspeakers, tube driven, behind little screens on the enclosure. This is how the kids are listening to music now..........by the millions. If we can just attract that market!
__________________________________________________Rick.........
Carp, I take my comment on the Audio Research back, my memory was NG.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/201196-amplifiers-audio-research-d90.html#post2795263
Not a Van Socyoc...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/201196-amplifiers-audio-research-d90.html#post2795263
Not a Van Socyoc...
Your memory is fine. Go back a little further- D-51, D-76... all with cross coupled inverters.
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