This is a n00bs entry into PA.
It seems I have sort of naturally evolved into PA territory.
This is sort of a short summary of "the why and how" on the parts that I decided on.
It started with a quest for low distortion, at any spl, cheap.
Budget 40-10k+hz 100db/w planning
After a lot of messing about with all sorts of solutions for sound processing, eventually decided to go for a cheap, but proper, source+DSP+amp solution.
The goal was to get good quality stuff, at a somewhat reasonable price.
Some deeper diggin eventually led me to the Pascal power stages implemented in many professional solutions.
Products - Pascal Audio
After emailing them and asking some questions, they answered some, but politely refused to answer my questions on who their customers where and which amplifiers used them.
But I did find that the very reasonably priced IMG STA-2000D is a 4 channel amp that uses the Pascal power stages, and after looking at a in-depth review by the German tools4music, decided this was the one!
IMG STAGELINE: STA-2000D
Combined with the db-Mark XCA24, which is a reasonably priced DSP solution, utilizing the following chips:
DAC Chip: Texas Instruments PCM1798
ADC Chip: Asahi Kasei AK5388
DSP Chip: Texas Instruments TM320C6726
Op Amps: Texas Instruments MC33078, ST Microelectronics MC33079
The XCA series offer impressive specs on paper, and after some fiddling about I must say they do give a very good first impression, especially considering the cost.
XCA series digital speaker management -GUANGZHOU DESAM AUDIO CO.,LTD The digtal speaker management with color lcd,,digital speaker management,digital karaoke processor,Digtal Feedback Destroyer,Digtal Equalizer,Mixer, Equalizer,Speaker,Amplifier ,Peripheries
After looking at various sources, I eventually decided to go for the Audient i4, it also uses AKM chips for DA.
Audient iD4 - Tech Specs
So now I got a sort of start up PA setup all of a sudden.
The kids wanted to have a Disco at school, so I volunteered doing the audio bit. Which meant needing some extra bits to mix music, so I bought the Numark DJ2GO2, because it was
1. Cheap
2. Several well reknowned DJ's seriously recommended it as a backup unit, on the basis of It's *very* portable, works *really* well with it's intended placement over the touchpad of a laptop, and if/when shtf, you have spare equipment in a tiny backpack.
https://www.numark.com/product/dj2go2
I was not compatible with the Serato system that came with the DJ2GO2, and after looking extensively on a lot of various solution, decided to purchase a license for Virtual DJ, it works a treat, handles FLAC and whatever else really well, no problem routing audio through 2 different interfaces at the same time (external soundcards are a MUST HAVE with the DJ2GO2, because the audio circuits on it are NOISY!), flexible GUI.
https://www.virtualdj.com
So at 07:00 this very morning, I had moved my crappy OSB speakers to the gym hall at the kids school, going to be a lot of stress hooking it all up and doing some measurement sweeps later today. Will be using the Umik on multiple locations and just tune the most important average bits, also got a cheap but good Shure mike for speaking, or perhaps if the Parents decide they want to sing.... 🙄
Fingers crossed!
It seems I have sort of naturally evolved into PA territory.
This is sort of a short summary of "the why and how" on the parts that I decided on.
It started with a quest for low distortion, at any spl, cheap.
Budget 40-10k+hz 100db/w planning
After a lot of messing about with all sorts of solutions for sound processing, eventually decided to go for a cheap, but proper, source+DSP+amp solution.
The goal was to get good quality stuff, at a somewhat reasonable price.
Some deeper diggin eventually led me to the Pascal power stages implemented in many professional solutions.
Products - Pascal Audio
After emailing them and asking some questions, they answered some, but politely refused to answer my questions on who their customers where and which amplifiers used them.
But I did find that the very reasonably priced IMG STA-2000D is a 4 channel amp that uses the Pascal power stages, and after looking at a in-depth review by the German tools4music, decided this was the one!
IMG STAGELINE: STA-2000D
Combined with the db-Mark XCA24, which is a reasonably priced DSP solution, utilizing the following chips:
DAC Chip: Texas Instruments PCM1798
ADC Chip: Asahi Kasei AK5388
DSP Chip: Texas Instruments TM320C6726
Op Amps: Texas Instruments MC33078, ST Microelectronics MC33079
The XCA series offer impressive specs on paper, and after some fiddling about I must say they do give a very good first impression, especially considering the cost.
XCA series digital speaker management -GUANGZHOU DESAM AUDIO CO.,LTD The digtal speaker management with color lcd,,digital speaker management,digital karaoke processor,Digtal Feedback Destroyer,Digtal Equalizer,Mixer, Equalizer,Speaker,Amplifier ,Peripheries
After looking at various sources, I eventually decided to go for the Audient i4, it also uses AKM chips for DA.
Audient iD4 - Tech Specs
So now I got a sort of start up PA setup all of a sudden.
The kids wanted to have a Disco at school, so I volunteered doing the audio bit. Which meant needing some extra bits to mix music, so I bought the Numark DJ2GO2, because it was
1. Cheap
2. Several well reknowned DJ's seriously recommended it as a backup unit, on the basis of It's *very* portable, works *really* well with it's intended placement over the touchpad of a laptop, and if/when shtf, you have spare equipment in a tiny backpack.
https://www.numark.com/product/dj2go2
I was not compatible with the Serato system that came with the DJ2GO2, and after looking extensively on a lot of various solution, decided to purchase a license for Virtual DJ, it works a treat, handles FLAC and whatever else really well, no problem routing audio through 2 different interfaces at the same time (external soundcards are a MUST HAVE with the DJ2GO2, because the audio circuits on it are NOISY!), flexible GUI.
https://www.virtualdj.com
So at 07:00 this very morning, I had moved my crappy OSB speakers to the gym hall at the kids school, going to be a lot of stress hooking it all up and doing some measurement sweeps later today. Will be using the Umik on multiple locations and just tune the most important average bits, also got a cheap but good Shure mike for speaking, or perhaps if the Parents decide they want to sing.... 🙄
Fingers crossed!
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the force is strong, yet another has succumbed to the dark side!(PA that is)
nice rig! what are you using for tops? seems like a full range or is it co-axial?
nice rig! what are you using for tops? seems like a full range or is it co-axial?
My beloved Fane FC152!
Think I got some of the very first ones, so they have a label with FC152 on them.
Current production name is 15-300TC. On the current EQ setup I've just notched some of the peaks, and suddenly the whole range seemed to smooth out.
Sounds great on every kind of music.
Edit:
I thought the Dark Side was "High-End"...?
"The squeaky clean force is roughly 330w x 4 on this one"
Think I got some of the very first ones, so they have a label with FC152 on them.
Current production name is 15-300TC. On the current EQ setup I've just notched some of the peaks, and suddenly the whole range seemed to smooth out.
Sounds great on every kind of music.
Edit:
I thought the Dark Side was "High-End"...?
"The squeaky clean force is roughly 330w x 4 on this one"
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how do you find really word use of the fanes? I havent had a chance to really rag mine yet since my front room at home, whilst fairly big, is a total acoustic nightmare (solid floor, currently no curtains 😱) . Even my decent quality hifi turns to mush and sounds bad at high volumes (the wife wont let me treat the room 🙁 ).
Thanks to some input from Chris661 Ive got some fairly aggressive EQing going on via dsp (various 4 - 6db narrow cuts, at 2, 4 and 7 khz) and I think they sound OK. Although I thought they sounded a bit more crisp with a 3db high shelf boost at around 12khz if I recall, but that might not be to everyone's tastes.
Thanks to some input from Chris661 Ive got some fairly aggressive EQing going on via dsp (various 4 - 6db narrow cuts, at 2, 4 and 7 khz) and I think they sound OK. Although I thought they sounded a bit more crisp with a 3db high shelf boost at around 12khz if I recall, but that might not be to everyone's tastes.
I find the "turns to mush" problem is partly down to acoustics. It seems like all the reflections are more obviously audible at higher volume levels.
The 15" Fanes do need a bit of EQing to sound good. It'll be a little dependent on cabinet dimensions, too - edge diffraction and the like will come into play, so it's best to measure once they're installed.
KaffiMann, welcome to the world of PA systems. A quick recommendation for you - it's worth putting some load straps around your speakers so the top speakers don't vibrate off. With mine, I use rubber feet on everything, and I have holes routed into the top of each speaker so that they "lock" together, and then I put a strap around that.
If you'd like any recommendations on equipment (desks, mics, etc), feel free to ask.
You'll be building stage monitors next!
Chris
The 15" Fanes do need a bit of EQing to sound good. It'll be a little dependent on cabinet dimensions, too - edge diffraction and the like will come into play, so it's best to measure once they're installed.
KaffiMann, welcome to the world of PA systems. A quick recommendation for you - it's worth putting some load straps around your speakers so the top speakers don't vibrate off. With mine, I use rubber feet on everything, and I have holes routed into the top of each speaker so that they "lock" together, and then I put a strap around that.
If you'd like any recommendations on equipment (desks, mics, etc), feel free to ask.
You'll be building stage monitors next!
Chris
For critical listening in a narrow room they MUST have aggressive toe in with 0degrees aimed a bit in front of the central listening position. They do not have such a narrow off axis dispersion as the graphs might make you think, and the energy must be focused away from reflective surfaces.
I can post my eq settings tomorrow, but if my memory retains any function at all, it's something alog the lines of:
centered ca 1800-2200hz roughly -5db a bit wide notch.
4200hz -4db kind of narrow notch
and then there's another narrow notch at 6700hz -5db or so
Add in a general downwards slope like JBL curve, but I used only dip eq, so there's a natural lift from the lack of filters kicking in from maybe 12khz up.
I spent several rounds of sweep and multipoint measurements, and just taking care of specific resonant peaks makes it sound quite good.
But it's very important to use toe in in narrow rooms, try making them aim to the spots beside your favourite listening spot, so they cross over, like a big X.
You should at the very least have a rug on the floor, and if all else fails, hang up some paintings on the walls. A bit long tablecloth on the table might help some. Pretty and long curtains should be able to get you another little bit of the way.
I will post my eq curves tomorrow, just have to see what they actually ended up being.
Chris, Thanks! 🙂 I think I've gotten pretty much the most important bits for simple DJ stuff, but some feedback is always welcome. Great stuff about the loading straps and rubber feet! I'm gonna grab some right away!
And even though it's a silly DA/AD/DA setup it sounds great, not any noise at all, ear into cone type thing, dead quiet!
I can post my eq settings tomorrow, but if my memory retains any function at all, it's something alog the lines of:
centered ca 1800-2200hz roughly -5db a bit wide notch.
4200hz -4db kind of narrow notch
and then there's another narrow notch at 6700hz -5db or so
Add in a general downwards slope like JBL curve, but I used only dip eq, so there's a natural lift from the lack of filters kicking in from maybe 12khz up.
I spent several rounds of sweep and multipoint measurements, and just taking care of specific resonant peaks makes it sound quite good.
But it's very important to use toe in in narrow rooms, try making them aim to the spots beside your favourite listening spot, so they cross over, like a big X.
You should at the very least have a rug on the floor, and if all else fails, hang up some paintings on the walls. A bit long tablecloth on the table might help some. Pretty and long curtains should be able to get you another little bit of the way.
I will post my eq curves tomorrow, just have to see what they actually ended up being.
Chris, Thanks! 🙂 I think I've gotten pretty much the most important bits for simple DJ stuff, but some feedback is always welcome. Great stuff about the loading straps and rubber feet! I'm gonna grab some right away!
And even though it's a silly DA/AD/DA setup it sounds great, not any noise at all, ear into cone type thing, dead quiet!
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That's not too far off what I've got for mine if I recall. Like Chris says I could really do with running a check again now they are in some cabinets, although it's a sealed trapezoid enclosure with additional bracing and sound deadening so I'm hoping that wont add too much.
At low levels you cant really tell that you are listening to a PA speaker. That is certainly a good sign, unlike the original drivers that were in the cabinets before I ripped them out, which sounded really quite papery / boxy
I do have a big rug on the floor but it made virtually no difference. lack of curtains is just down to lack of money and / or finding ones we like but its on the plan. Same with pictures, we haven't found any paintings we like of the size we want which aren't ridiculous money. I just have to accept that my nice hifi sounds whack for now.
There is one plan of action which is too suspend a thick curtain from wire across the entire rear wall behind the speakers by attaching it to the door frames which are at either end of that wall. Perhaps some net curtain wire attached to some small hooks in the top of the door frames, just take it off put it away when not needed. That will help a lot and being temporary the wife wont complain about it, but I just haven't got around to doing it yet.
At low levels you cant really tell that you are listening to a PA speaker. That is certainly a good sign, unlike the original drivers that were in the cabinets before I ripped them out, which sounded really quite papery / boxy
I do have a big rug on the floor but it made virtually no difference. lack of curtains is just down to lack of money and / or finding ones we like but its on the plan. Same with pictures, we haven't found any paintings we like of the size we want which aren't ridiculous money. I just have to accept that my nice hifi sounds whack for now.
There is one plan of action which is too suspend a thick curtain from wire across the entire rear wall behind the speakers by attaching it to the door frames which are at either end of that wall. Perhaps some net curtain wire attached to some small hooks in the top of the door frames, just take it off put it away when not needed. That will help a lot and being temporary the wife wont complain about it, but I just haven't got around to doing it yet.
As an audio tinkerer, I like your system though I think that those wood speakers aren't as weatherproof as any PA speaker should be IMHO.
At what frequency do you crossover between 15" and 15" ? 😉
At what frequency do you crossover between 15" and 15" ? 😉
Tom, they where not intended as PA speakers, it was just very cheaply made sort of prototype boxes to test some ideas I wanted to try out in terms of bracing, structures and material use. Was not meant to last very long, 1.5 years later they're still going strong.
It's working so well that I might never get around to order proper CNC'd ply boxes for them.
I really must get around to doing some surface treatment for them though...
Two of the subs where outside for about 6-8 months (autumn/winter), just to see if I would miss them in the stereo setup, had to wash off some fungus on the Poplar plywood plate on the front, but the OSB was not touched by anything, still as nice as OSB can be.
I've tried all sorts of cross overs, now I'm sort of using a offset 2nd order Bessel not very far off the Rane papers, around 200hz somewhere.
I have tried extensively, but not too happy with LR and BW filters, I find it easier to deal with the "Bessel bump" than it is to deal with the "LR/BW wiggles".
No need for sharp filters here.
Edit:
Sorry about not coming back with the filters and XO settings, will see if I can dig them out later today. Busy prepping to move house.
It's working so well that I might never get around to order proper CNC'd ply boxes for them.
I really must get around to doing some surface treatment for them though...
Two of the subs where outside for about 6-8 months (autumn/winter), just to see if I would miss them in the stereo setup, had to wash off some fungus on the Poplar plywood plate on the front, but the OSB was not touched by anything, still as nice as OSB can be.
I've tried all sorts of cross overs, now I'm sort of using a offset 2nd order Bessel not very far off the Rane papers, around 200hz somewhere.
I have tried extensively, but not too happy with LR and BW filters, I find it easier to deal with the "Bessel bump" than it is to deal with the "LR/BW wiggles".
No need for sharp filters here.
Edit:
Sorry about not coming back with the filters and XO settings, will see if I can dig them out later today. Busy prepping to move house.
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😱 I'm quite sure that the fungus is still there, even if you can't see it! And it may distribute spore. No joke!
Have you examined the baffles' inner surfaces?
Best regards!
It's just the un-treated ply that was affected, and it's only a 12mm sheet on the front, the whole box is made of 15mm OSB.
No traces of anything at all inside the box.
I used lots of stuff to kill off the fungus.
The speakers are put to storage now, so we'll see what happens when I dig them out again. If any of it is still alive, then it's new and finalized design boxes at last 😀
No loss for me! 😀
I cannot throw away stuff that works well, but if they're attacked by mother nature, then I have an excuse to up my game. 😀
No traces of anything at all inside the box.
I used lots of stuff to kill off the fungus.
The speakers are put to storage now, so we'll see what happens when I dig them out again. If any of it is still alive, then it's new and finalized design boxes at last 😀
No loss for me! 😀
I cannot throw away stuff that works well, but if they're attacked by mother nature, then I have an excuse to up my game. 😀
I kept a pair of KLH23 speakers 25 years after the woofer coil went open in one. Never learned how to recone it, learned how to buy new drivers from parts-express.com
New $15 10" driver gave less than realistic bass levels, but these were donated to a church where the Allen organ speakers had rotted the foam surrounds and sounded horrid. The richest guy there hated the commanding bass of the Peavey 1210's I loaned them while I was repairing the KLH23. So these speakers have found the right place for their new life as PA. Great midrange, wimpy bass. The organist doesn't even use the pedals on the organ.
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That's 1800 watts RMS of speakers you have there, not a bad setup.
I used to run a mobile disco with a 225WRMS Maplin amplifier and four Fane 12-50 WRMS speakers and it was never not loud enough.
I used to run a mobile disco with a 225WRMS Maplin amplifier and four Fane 12-50 WRMS speakers and it was never not loud enough.
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