You do realize we're talking about the VRX not the Vertec here. I have used the VRX as well as the Mackie HDA and the Yorkville PSA and the JBL was easily the worst sounding of the 3.
Consider what your needs will be because narrow requires a larger device, which means they tend to give up at a higher frequency. When going for an asymmetrical H&V on a flat front device, the small one sets this limit.
Larger device? I lost you there...
You mean directivity is lost at a higher frequency with narrowe dispersion?
And if I do choose point source can I put 4 speakers up the front will that work?
This way I can have the two main speakers pointing to the dance floor(maybe slighltly toes in maybe not) and the other two on the front sides also point into the dance floor with it still covering the seated guests but the a latter portion of the 90 or 60 degree(whichever dispersion I choose) will be aimed at them. Which means they will have a slightly lower SPL aimed at them while they are seated and talking to others.
This way I can have the two main speakers pointing to the dance floor(maybe slighltly toes in maybe not) and the other two on the front sides also point into the dance floor with it still covering the seated guests but the a latter portion of the 90 or 60 degree(whichever dispersion I choose) will be aimed at them. Which means they will have a slightly lower SPL aimed at them while they are seated and talking to others.
Last edited:
That is the gist of it 😉 It's all good and possible to set out with that goal in mind, and achieve it.Larger device? I lost you there...
You mean directivity is lost at a higher frequency with narrowe dispersion?
More often you'll find that a fixed device has been used without regard for the compromises. So when angles like 40 degrees get mentioned then either we're talking about a really cool speaker... or one that has no regard for what happens in the midrange.
Ok.
I'd forget about arrays and just build good potent system. Based on yours preferred achievable level i'd suggest this HF+MF building block.
HF on the something 2" big drivers like JBL 2446, BMS 4590, Beyma 850, upper line Radians or similar with nearfield constant-directivity horn like P.Audio 3223 and proper correction.
Mids on hard 15" like Eighteen sound 15MB700 in relatively small vented enclosure at ~20 liters. 2-3 per side.
Subs any, i suppose good 4x218 will be good enough. I'ld choose hard and highly tuned ones at say 40 Hz than ultralow rubber ones.
HF+MF section upper than scene at ~3 meters height, subs under scene in one line.
I'd forget about arrays and just build good potent system. Based on yours preferred achievable level i'd suggest this HF+MF building block.
HF on the something 2" big drivers like JBL 2446, BMS 4590, Beyma 850, upper line Radians or similar with nearfield constant-directivity horn like P.Audio 3223 and proper correction.
Mids on hard 15" like Eighteen sound 15MB700 in relatively small vented enclosure at ~20 liters. 2-3 per side.
Subs any, i suppose good 4x218 will be good enough. I'ld choose hard and highly tuned ones at say 40 Hz than ultralow rubber ones.
HF+MF section upper than scene at ~3 meters height, subs under scene in one line.
As the only speakers in the room? Not terribly well.And if I do choose point source can I put 4 speakers up the front will that work?
That's a terrible idea from an intelligibility standpoint, there will be different arrival times from those sources that will be impossible to compensate for. This is got to be a very reverbant room, hopefully you can address a lot of that with treatments but you don't want to undo that with a poor speaker implementation. The best speaker solution would be one where there is no overlap at all with speaker patterns but that is seldom achieved. But it's still something you should aim for.This way I can have the two main speakers pointing to the dance floor(maybe slighltly toes in maybe not) and the other two on the front sides also point into the dance floor
Last edited:
Consult a professional. Seriously. Otherwise you will definitely fail. Don't underestimate acoustics & aaudio install complexity. Pay once, cry once. You will be able to focus on your core business, and build a good reputation.
On the other hand, if you try to home brew your way out of it, you might find yourself putting band aids over band aids, having poor sound, getting bad reviews, etc......
On the other hand, if you try to home brew your way out of it, you might find yourself putting band aids over band aids, having poor sound, getting bad reviews, etc......
Consult a professional. Seriously. Otherwise you will definitely fail. Don't underestimate acoustics & aaudio install complexity. Pay once, cry once. You will be able to focus on your core business, and build a good reputation.
On the other hand, if you try to home brew your way out of it, you might find yourself putting band aids over band aids, having poor sound, getting bad reviews, etc......
There are no professionals in audio in my country. Lol! I think it says Australia on my profile but I have lived outside recently. I am in an X Soviet country...
I can of course hire a acoustic consultant online but most acousticians aren't going to tell me more than what I know other than help working out on a perfect and proven helmontz asbsorber plans. I am sure I still have a lot to learn and might be worth hitting up someone on an hourly rate but I would need someone with access with full simulation software and I doubt they will be cheap.
Regarding a audio engineer, like I said I am only serving as someone ensuring the right choice is made by the "suppossed" proffesional. I made it clear to the owner I take no responsibilty and that I can guide the audio engineer if I find he lacks the knowledge.
Once I understand the basics I will look for someone appropriate. The problem is if the person in question doesn't speak English I can't imagine how advanced they will be in DSP or new advances in PA live events or even what we are discussing on this thread. We usually hire Russian technicians for large outdoor events, I am not saying we don't have any skilled audio engineers just that I personally want to make sure there knowledge is good by knowing the basics myself, if his good then have nothing to worry about. The guy at the moment has no idea so ill let him sell want he wants under my jurisdiction and then find a proper audio engineer to set everything up. Well, at least that is the plan, I am sure a lot of these kind of red tape happen all over the world.
The real part of that is how advanced they are at understanding the practical application of electronic filters, including what can be done for sound with them, and what cannot be and must be done at an acoustic level.I can't imagine how advanced they will be in DSP
The danger these days is that almost anyone can get familiar with making adjustments on devices and can look like they know what they're doing when they don't.
At one time in the past it took some electronics knowledge and at least there was a chance they'd been taught filter theory and signal processing.
So its not as simple as setting up the mic on the DBX speaker management system taking measurements and having it automatically correct the response? I mean, Im joking but many of the automated responses with DSP work wonders these days... I'm presuming PA is totally different.
If anyone can recommend someone who is knowledgeable on PA systems as well as large venue acoustics and I can use as a consultant let me know?
If anyone can recommend someone who is knowledgeable on PA systems as well as large venue acoustics and I can use as a consultant let me know?
The simple fact that a measurement can find needed corrections, mostly points to acoustic issues. Reflections, speaker diffractions, variations in directivity etc.
Sometimes these can be tweaked with EQ but they can't be fixed. In other words you might be able to get the system so that average people think they sound quite good enough, but you will never fix the issues completely if you've only ever done DSP stuff. Also won't know where to begin on difficult issues.
Sometimes these can be tweaked with EQ but they can't be fixed. In other words you might be able to get the system so that average people think they sound quite good enough, but you will never fix the issues completely if you've only ever done DSP stuff. Also won't know where to begin on difficult issues.
PA isn't totally different but what AllenB stated is key.. the operator has to understand what can be fixed with that DSP and what can't. For example room nodes cannot be corrected with DSP that all comes down to speaker positioning.. this is more applicable to low frequencies, and the only situation where drivers/speakers can be time alligned in a way that works for most/all listening positions is when they are colocated as close to one another as possible. The biggest difference is that live sound is about covering a large space with coherent audio whereas home audio is often optimized for a single listening position. The same tools can be utilized for both but different choices/compromizes have to be made to get best performance in each case.
If anyone can recommend someone who is knowledgeable on PA systems as well as large venue acoustics and I can use as a consultant let me know?
Akukon | Consulting services in acoustics, noise control, audiovisual and theatre technical design.
This is Finland's number one, has offices in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Georgia
If anyone can recommend someone who is knowledgeable on PA systems as well as large venue acoustics and I can use as a consultant let me know?
No, please.
There are a huge amount of marketologists and sales managers. Anyway you will be prompted to buy as higher line acoustics as possible, anyway to estimate your upper budgetary limit and force you to pay most.
If you go this way, post all info here for independent checking.
No one DSP can correct lack of HF driver size, no one filter could reveal punch in an excessive vented chamber volume and no one speaker could resist DJ's thoughts about achievable volume.
PA isn't totally different but what AllenB stated is key.. the operator has to understand what can be fixed with that DSP and what can't. For example room nodes cannot be corrected with DSP that all comes down to speaker positioning.. this is more applicable to low frequencies, and the only situation where drivers/speakers can be time alligned in a way that works for most/all listening positions is when they are colocated as close to one another as possible. The biggest difference is that live sound is about covering a large space with coherent audio whereas home audio is often optimized for a single listening position. The same tools can be utilized for both but different choices/compromizes have to be made to get best performance in each case.
Yeh room modes can't be fixed but it's small room acoustic problem although this hall is 17m in length from front to back so the back wall will need absorbtion. I am sure some room modes still exist and I can place subwoofers on opposite polarites of the mode but defntiely do not want 4 sub woofers the idea is I keep the energy on the dance floor, well that is my goal not sure if it should be a goal.
SBIR will exist depending where the speaker and subs are placed all that I can manage and highly doubt any audio expert will understand those issues. Which I can tackle.
There is directivity issues, but a decent speaker will have decent coverage its about choosing the right spray for the venue. Difraction again comes with good speaker design but I am hazarding a guess there must be another element to diffraction with live venues which I haven't yet understood.
Tackling reflections are the hardest early detrimental reflectons are what about 30ms in a larger venue. Griesenger mentions 10 to 50ms as not the best with between 50 to 150ms being maximally disturbing and anything over 150ms adding to envelopment. This probably relates more to concert halls but gives us a ballpark to work with.
And the issues I have no idea about is how to cover a large area with coherent audio and understanding the comprimises. But like I said, if i get the basics I can find an audio engineer who will take care of it. Worst case I can reach out to a consultant.
The variables are endless I know.
No, please.
There are a huge amount of marketologists and sales managers. Anyway you will be prompted to buy as higher line acoustics as possible, anyway to estimate your upper budgetary limit and force you to pay most.
If you go this way, post all info here for independent checking.
No one DSP can correct lack of HF driver size, no one filter could reveal punch in an excessive vented chamber volume and no one speaker could resist DJ's thoughts about achievable volume.
I agree, so far the only thing I am looking into is the Aqflex and want to see what the cost is compared to 500 acoustic panels whether it be DIY or from China. So yeh, I got most things covered except the PA system side...
I will check here if I am recommended something just to check.
Ideally, the business owner should have involved an acoustician in the planning phase to work with the architect. It would have been significantly easier and cheaper.
Regardless it is never too late.
I have attended and passed some acoustics coirse at university. Basic facts: you cant KILL reflections entirely, and you don't want to. But you want to control and surpress a significant amount of them.
Relative to room surface area and volume, you need significant absorption area to achieve significant control.
Except for the walls, you want to get as much absorption in the ceiling as you can. Because statistically, after 1-3 bounces off other surfaces, a lot of energy will end up in the ceiling. You don't want that energy to bounce back downwards. Your loudspeakers also radiate rear and sideways, same story.
Curtains and drapes have been mentioned, also good.
Furniture can also have a significant impact. Chairs with padded backrests and seats will help. That is one reason for plushy cinema seats, they allow the theatre acoustics to not change that much regardless if there are 5 or 500 spectators inside.
If the events are well attended, the guests also absorb a lor of sound, that will help too.
But if the reverberation time is even nearly as bad as you describe (5 seconds), the measures needed are DRASTIC.
Again, please urge the owner to consult professional acousticians. In the age of computers they will be able to consult remotely.
Best of luck with the project!
Regardless it is never too late.
I have attended and passed some acoustics coirse at university. Basic facts: you cant KILL reflections entirely, and you don't want to. But you want to control and surpress a significant amount of them.
Relative to room surface area and volume, you need significant absorption area to achieve significant control.
Except for the walls, you want to get as much absorption in the ceiling as you can. Because statistically, after 1-3 bounces off other surfaces, a lot of energy will end up in the ceiling. You don't want that energy to bounce back downwards. Your loudspeakers also radiate rear and sideways, same story.
Curtains and drapes have been mentioned, also good.
Furniture can also have a significant impact. Chairs with padded backrests and seats will help. That is one reason for plushy cinema seats, they allow the theatre acoustics to not change that much regardless if there are 5 or 500 spectators inside.
If the events are well attended, the guests also absorb a lor of sound, that will help too.
But if the reverberation time is even nearly as bad as you describe (5 seconds), the measures needed are DRASTIC.
Again, please urge the owner to consult professional acousticians. In the age of computers they will be able to consult remotely.
Best of luck with the project!
well the JBL's may not be the way to go but a well implemented array system would go a long way to achieve a "steerable" coverage pattern system but in the bass domain it may require more than 4 subs to create a directional array.
decor always supersedes acoustic treatment unfortunately and that's truly the largest area where significant improvements to the acoustic space can be made but from the supplied pic's the hall appears to be close to the finishing stages.
and just to be clear the larger the space the worse room modes are!
i'm mentioning this because in post 35 your mention that " but it's small room acoustic problem" is false.
decor always supersedes acoustic treatment unfortunately and that's truly the largest area where significant improvements to the acoustic space can be made but from the supplied pic's the hall appears to be close to the finishing stages.
and just to be clear the larger the space the worse room modes are!
i'm mentioning this because in post 35 your mention that " but it's small room acoustic problem" is false.
This room empty, assuming some curtains either at the stage or by the windows, with mostly plaster or other solid surfaces will have a reverb time of around 2.5 to 3.5 seconds. Desirable is 1.3 seconds when occupied.
Normally you would put thick carpeting on the wall opposite the stage, the windows there rule that out. However once people enter the room the reverb will drop. At 300 people they should provide enough absorption to give the room just decent acoustics. However if there will be fewer people then heavy curtains along the wall surrounding the windows should be fine. I would not do any treatment to the ceiling. It is not parallel to the floor and has a number of features that will break up strong reflections.
At the top of the window wall there is a bit of drywall or plaster, that is where I would use fabric stuffed with fiberglass to a 10 cm depth. Properly made panels will retain the architectural detail of the ironwork. As it is acoustically loaded with the ceiling and wall corner it will be the most effective place to treat. If not possible to use such panels, heavy lined drapes of 200% length up there should suffice.
As people tend to be on the floor, carpeting will have minimal effect when the room is in use.
Normally you would put thick carpeting on the wall opposite the stage, the windows there rule that out. However once people enter the room the reverb will drop. At 300 people they should provide enough absorption to give the room just decent acoustics. However if there will be fewer people then heavy curtains along the wall surrounding the windows should be fine. I would not do any treatment to the ceiling. It is not parallel to the floor and has a number of features that will break up strong reflections.
At the top of the window wall there is a bit of drywall or plaster, that is where I would use fabric stuffed with fiberglass to a 10 cm depth. Properly made panels will retain the architectural detail of the ironwork. As it is acoustically loaded with the ceiling and wall corner it will be the most effective place to treat. If not possible to use such panels, heavy lined drapes of 200% length up there should suffice.
As people tend to be on the floor, carpeting will have minimal effect when the room is in use.
Last edited:
Ideally, the business owner should have involved an acoustician in the planning phase to work with the architect. It would have been significantly easier and cheaper. Regardless it is never too late.
Of course it would have been nice to implement acoustics into the planning phase with the architect but we are at this point and I have to work with what I got.
I have attended and passed some acoustics coirse at university. Basic facts: you cant KILL reflections entirely, and you don't want to. But you want to control and surpress a significant amount of them.
I am pro lateral reflections, in both large and small spaces depending on there arrival times to the listening location. But yes, I will control reflections with the use of controlled speaker dispersion and drapes and curtains along glass on the back wall. I think the glass will help bass escape with thicker curtains absorbing to the upper mid frequencies that would help. The upper side ceiling could so with some mild 2D diffusion, a good place to scatter back a diffused field onto the dance floor. Technically, I can only use the upper(highest part) part of the ceiling most probably covered with slats or something so side ceiling within the vaulted part I can add something aesthetically like a 2D binary, I am thinking somethign like a Bad arc panel.
Relative to room surface area and volume, you need significant absorption area to achieve significant control.
I agree which will be very difficult to achieve.
Except for the walls, you want to get as much absorption in the ceiling as you can. Because statistically, after 1-3 bounces off other surfaces, a lot of energy will end up in the ceiling. You don't want that energy to bounce back downwards.
I can't touch side walls, but that's okay I want some reflections from there so that works well for me and the owner. But like you mentioned controling back wall and ceiling is important. I am looking at putting as much as absorbtion on the ceiling but below Simon7000 is recomending not to add absorbtion on the ceiling as it is a vault design which is interesting would love to here is take why.
Curtains and drapes have been mentioned, also good.
Furniture can also have a significant impact. Chairs with padded backrests and seats will help. That is one reason for plushy cinema seats, they allow the theatre acoustics to not change that much regardless if there are 5 or 500 spectators inside.
There are a number of innovative ideas I can utilise to increase the absorbtion percentage with tuned traps or some sort of absorbtion that can still get down low and evenly absorb the frequency range. And the lower ceiling the 3m part on the sides of the dance floor could also do with absorbtion panels.
Again, please urge the owner to consult professional acousticians. In the age of computers they will be able to consult remotely.
Yes, I will hit up a firms that use simulation software and can work on an hourly bases.
But if the reverberation time is even nearly as bad as you describe (5 seconds), the measures needed are DRASTIC.
Hence why I am looking into Aqflex which might makes things simpler if they are as good as the coefficents state, really curious how expensive that implementation is compared to a say 100 panels or possibly even 200. The amount of surface area needed to be covered is drastic but even a 1s reduction will help a lot in my opinion, currently its unbearable.
- Home
- Live Sound
- PA Systems
- Understanding Basics of LIne Array vs Point source