Was just wondering since I have an under construction F4 in dual mono fashion, what would it take to make it balanced and if worth sound wise provided also the pre (which is a project around a BA-3 board) will be balanced.
Grazie
Grazie
take stereo F4
give it balanced signal ( one phase per normal mono channel) and you have bridged mono block of it
everything more than clearly shown and explained in F4 papers
https://www.firstwatt.com/f4.html
download manual on bottom of the page
and yes, for that, you need proper balanced preamp, with high swing capability
so, BA3 Bal FE
give it balanced signal ( one phase per normal mono channel) and you have bridged mono block of it
everything more than clearly shown and explained in F4 papers
https://www.firstwatt.com/f4.html
download manual on bottom of the page
and yes, for that, you need proper balanced preamp, with high swing capability
so, BA3 Bal FE
Ciao Zen,
you are always ready to follow up even with the dumbest questions like mine 🙂 I have a skilled tech building the F4 for me, too much for a first DIY project, we decided the dual mono route and given I am collecting stuff to also put together the BA-3, again in dual mono flavour, I was wondering what would it take over a dual mono on both the F4 and BA-3 to make them balanced and if worth the extra pain vs sound quality increase.
I seem to recall a thread of a guy building a dual mono balanced BA-3 where there is everything like in a dual mono with an extra BA-3 board (I got an extra one just in case something goes wrong or a friend willing to build a preamp for their own), the F4 is already in the process so before it's done I might ask to add balanced inputs if that is of any reasonable/audible increase vs difficulty/cost.
Grazie ancora, always so nice of you all
Giovanni
you are always ready to follow up even with the dumbest questions like mine 🙂 I have a skilled tech building the F4 for me, too much for a first DIY project, we decided the dual mono route and given I am collecting stuff to also put together the BA-3, again in dual mono flavour, I was wondering what would it take over a dual mono on both the F4 and BA-3 to make them balanced and if worth the extra pain vs sound quality increase.
I seem to recall a thread of a guy building a dual mono balanced BA-3 where there is everything like in a dual mono with an extra BA-3 board (I got an extra one just in case something goes wrong or a friend willing to build a preamp for their own), the F4 is already in the process so before it's done I might ask to add balanced inputs if that is of any reasonable/audible increase vs difficulty/cost.
Grazie ancora, always so nice of you all
Giovanni
if you plan to use that stereo (normal) F4 in future as balanced/bridged mono block ( thus needing one more for stereo), it is better to make it with common PSU for both channels in one case
that way better symmetry, once when connected bridged
regarding other things, you need to work more on phrasing - what is your intention?
having power amps as usual, plus having capable preamp separately ....... or having power amps with additional Front Ends, in same box?
when 'Talian English meets ZMEngrish, there is trouble
that way better symmetry, once when connected bridged
regarding other things, you need to work more on phrasing - what is your intention?
having power amps as usual, plus having capable preamp separately ....... or having power amps with additional Front Ends, in same box?
when 'Talian English meets ZMEngrish, there is trouble
The plan is to renovate my old setup (AR SP9 and push-pull KT88) with the F4 run in stereo and then the BA-3 to come, two separate units.
Believe you me, 'talian way more difficult than English, what makes it worse is that I can not use gestures to explain you my intents, as a guy off the Naples bay I could do it with just my hands and no need to talk/write at all ;-)
Jokes apart, now I run a pair of JBL L220 which are 90dbW/m and I am still debating myself if the F4 was the right choice but I guess it will do it, chain would be SP9 to begin with (with 20db gain to drive the F4), F4 and L220, next would come the BA-3.
This morning my VAF (which is not an acronym for a very often used 'talian word but rather Very Audiophile Friend) told me that he could hear audible improvements in running his setup in balanced with the newly arrived cable (unknown but 7K+ preamp, Jeff Rowland 312 and Sonus Faber Electa Amator II), I don't really believe that but just tickling the "balanced" bit if that would really bring some improvements...
Grazie
Believe you me, 'talian way more difficult than English, what makes it worse is that I can not use gestures to explain you my intents, as a guy off the Naples bay I could do it with just my hands and no need to talk/write at all ;-)
Jokes apart, now I run a pair of JBL L220 which are 90dbW/m and I am still debating myself if the F4 was the right choice but I guess it will do it, chain would be SP9 to begin with (with 20db gain to drive the F4), F4 and L220, next would come the BA-3.
This morning my VAF (which is not an acronym for a very often used 'talian word but rather Very Audiophile Friend) told me that he could hear audible improvements in running his setup in balanced with the newly arrived cable (unknown but 7K+ preamp, Jeff Rowland 312 and Sonus Faber Electa Amator II), I don't really believe that but just tickling the "balanced" bit if that would really bring some improvements...
Grazie
well, as they say - All Roads are leading to Rome
make F4 first, enjoy it for some time, then there is no other way to try balanced than to make another one ....... and try it
who sez that this hobby needs to be simple ?
now more serious - balanced is justified only if everything is balanced, starting from source , then pre, then amp
speaking of source, proper balanced, not as majority of them are - inherently SE with just patched small gizmo on end to make neg. phase
example - proper differential/balanced DAC is worth pursuing same arrangement downstream
now, if you like nature of sound you're having with your existing tube setup, I reckon maybe it's best to stay in unbalanced realm
but - as building and DIY are primarily fun - you're not loosing anything if you build two F4 and try it by your self
looking at commercial value of F4 (original still bargain vs. competition), price of parts is peanuts
and you have Modushop locally
damn 'Talians ......... having half of Industrial History by their self
make F4 first, enjoy it for some time, then there is no other way to try balanced than to make another one ....... and try it
who sez that this hobby needs to be simple ?
now more serious - balanced is justified only if everything is balanced, starting from source , then pre, then amp
speaking of source, proper balanced, not as majority of them are - inherently SE with just patched small gizmo on end to make neg. phase
example - proper differential/balanced DAC is worth pursuing same arrangement downstream
now, if you like nature of sound you're having with your existing tube setup, I reckon maybe it's best to stay in unbalanced realm
but - as building and DIY are primarily fun - you're not loosing anything if you build two F4 and try it by your self
looking at commercial value of F4 (original still bargain vs. competition), price of parts is peanuts
and you have Modushop locally
damn 'Talians ......... having half of Industrial History by their self
Makes sense, my DAC is a poor's man DAC and as such the next step, maybe next year after the BA-3 eventually comes to life, will be a worthy substitute, as of today no balanced source so I'd leave things as they are, it was a matter of curiosity and, by the way, got the Dissipante 4U for the F4 and it is as expensive as an Italian refrigerator and my guess is that it would even burn more electricity once at work... that modushop stuff is really expensive!!!
Unfortunately we almost only have the historical side of industry premiership left, most has become Chinese and the few remaining ones are soon to get sold if things keep going the way they are but this is not pertinent and nothing helping mood
Grazie for your exhaustive and hilarious reply, back to the huge BA-3 thread to fill the shopping list to get parts
Unfortunately we almost only have the historical side of industry premiership left, most has become Chinese and the few remaining ones are soon to get sold if things keep going the way they are but this is not pertinent and nothing helping mood
Grazie for your exhaustive and hilarious reply, back to the huge BA-3 thread to fill the shopping list to get parts
damn 'Talians
it is one thing when something is expensive for your reason ( or wallet) vs. when something is objectively expensive
direct concurrence to Modushop are cases from Aliexpress, but then you must develop a habit of not looking at base price, but at sum price of goods+shipping
as always, you're paying for something delivered to your door and that's sum price
there are specimens from Aliexpress of impeccable quality, but one need to choose carefully to get it of same quality as you're already having in front of your own nose
believe me - I tried and did every possible scenario of making/buying/getting decent case for power amp....... and Modushop option is hard to beat, speaking of Lira/Quality ratio
speaking strictly about Eu based expenses, situation is I reckon sightly different for over-the-ocean dealings
and - worth saying - besides me being happy customer, there is no other affiliation between Modushop Team and Mighty ZM
it is one thing when something is expensive for your reason ( or wallet) vs. when something is objectively expensive
direct concurrence to Modushop are cases from Aliexpress, but then you must develop a habit of not looking at base price, but at sum price of goods+shipping
as always, you're paying for something delivered to your door and that's sum price
there are specimens from Aliexpress of impeccable quality, but one need to choose carefully to get it of same quality as you're already having in front of your own nose
believe me - I tried and did every possible scenario of making/buying/getting decent case for power amp....... and Modushop option is hard to beat, speaking of Lira/Quality ratio
speaking strictly about Eu based expenses, situation is I reckon sightly different for over-the-ocean dealings
and - worth saying - besides me being happy customer, there is no other affiliation between Modushop Team and Mighty ZM
damn 'Talians
............ Modushop option is hard to beat, speaking of Lira/Quality ratio
The eBay 'specials' are 'Red Wolwos' by comparison.....but some 'talians have liked them!
You know what, I have not seen the F4 yet as it is under construction and should be done within end of this month and as such haven't seen the case yet but I know them being really nice, I'd like a similar one to match when I go for the BA-3, black, 10mm front panel and hidden screws, the cleanest the better, no thrills and frills, I like keeping it minimalist
Balanced source :
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/topping-d10-balanced-review-usb-dac.25094/
Singled ended compared to balanced (benefit of balanced) :
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player-balanced-mode
But balanced is best done with symmetrical circuits, such as F5X, F5X Pre, Blowtorch, Pass Labs XA series, ...
And not just use 2x SE in bridged mode.
See supersymmetry patent.
Cheers,
Patrick
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/topping-d10-balanced-review-usb-dac.25094/
Singled ended compared to balanced (benefit of balanced) :
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pono-ponoplayer-portable-music-player-balanced-mode
But balanced is best done with symmetrical circuits, such as F5X, F5X Pre, Blowtorch, Pass Labs XA series, ...
And not just use 2x SE in bridged mode.
See supersymmetry patent.
Cheers,
Patrick
well, frankly, it is not SUSY in full measure , in spirit of patent itself, where existing of NFB loop is part of the game
BA3 FE, both SE and Bal are not having NFB Loop, but local degeneration in BA3 Bal ( main game in BA3 in general) is x-ed
as far as is possible with non-NFB circuits, that's enough of cross coupling for me to call it properly differential
pretty much same as cross-couple degenerated LTP
BA3 FE, both SE and Bal are not having NFB Loop, but local degeneration in BA3 Bal ( main game in BA3 in general) is x-ed
as far as is possible with non-NFB circuits, that's enough of cross coupling for me to call it properly differential
pretty much same as cross-couple degenerated LTP
So does this "local degeneration, like a cross-couple degenerated LTP" falls under the patent claims or not ?
How old is John Curl's complementary JFET input circuit (e.g. in the Blowtorch 1997) ?
I remember reading it but not fully understanding its brilliance when I started DIY in ~2003.
This excellent explanation :
http://pmacura.cz/diyaudio/jfetdist.htm
Cheers,
Patrick
How old is John Curl's complementary JFET input circuit (e.g. in the Blowtorch 1997) ?
I remember reading it but not fully understanding its brilliance when I started DIY in ~2003.
This excellent explanation :
http://pmacura.cz/diyaudio/jfetdist.htm
Cheers,
Patrick
Last edited:
of course, in BA3 there is no loop error correction per se, so by the book it isn't SUSY
anyhow, blame Nature as first inventor of SUSY, as we can call it
for differential error correction one doesn't need feedback .... or even active electronic stages
Pa patented it, but it existed from moment when first bal in/bal out xformer is made ..... and that blingie is very hard to trace by origin
as I see it, main virtue of SUSY circuits ( whichever way they are made) is to increase level of symmetry between signal phases ..... practically error correcting
in full context , that would include entire amplification chain, you can say it's by the book
in case of circuits where we have it partially it isn't by the book/patent
in short - someone should be clever enough and claim SUSY patent for bal/bal xformers and LTP variations with/without xcoupled degeneration, to cover both complete and partial contexts
so, say that Pa wasn't clever enough to include those, in 1994
heck, even Bal in/SE out xformers are having intrinsic SUSY effect
anyway, you can't expect fully formal perspective from me ........ first - that's boring, second - I'm pretty much clueless ..... even if I started with DIY before 2003
In my very limited understanding of Nelson's patent, it is not about coupling the left and right halves of a differential amplifier.
The latter is known state of the art before 1994, and therefore not patentable.
Good examples are plenty in tune amps.
The patent, IMHO, is about feeding the distorted output of one half to the input of the other half, for improved correction at the differential output.
That is the innovation of the patent.
The implication of that is there has to be negative feedback in the first place.
So if "Super Symmetry" has been an exclusive invention of Pass Labs, then the presence NFB must be the prerequisite.
And of course now 25 years after, the patent is public property for all to use.
Cheers,
Patrick
The latter is known state of the art before 1994, and therefore not patentable.
Good examples are plenty in tune amps.
The patent, IMHO, is about feeding the distorted output of one half to the input of the other half, for improved correction at the differential output.
That is the innovation of the patent.
The implication of that is there has to be negative feedback in the first place.
So if "Super Symmetry" has been an exclusive invention of Pass Labs, then the presence NFB must be the prerequisite.
And of course now 25 years after, the patent is public property for all to use.
Cheers,
Patrick