This is indeed key, "forgiving" material just makes the job of assessing that much harder - then whether it is either well recorded or not, is not really important, at least for me.
Fortunately, Mooly's material is quite excellent for highlighting differences - makes the job relatively easy ...
Yep, beat frequency generation right in the ear itself. You might want to check out this : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/200865-sound-quality-vs-measurements-61.html#post2929546
Offers a perfect explanation why low order harmonics are rather inaudible.
It could be very difficult, if you are doing playback thru a couple of 741s.
But finding the original should not be difficult - it should stand out from all the rest.
It should be louder as it doesn't have the 0.94 gain. I guess Banana is the bypass and Orange is the 741 but beyond that it's just guessing for me. Orange does have some odd imaging compared to the others.
It's a good test but being the OCD that I am , I would have tweaked resistor values to get the the gain dead unity to hide the bypass more.
G²
Doesn't this prove something I used to mention. When we discuss about how opamp sound is bad, somebody will argue that all music have gone thru hundreds of opamp. Thats different. Now you see how difficult it is to differentiate a source this way but if you listen the analog you will be able to differentiate between opamps more easily.
Won't do that. It will run for a reasonable time, certainly as long as there is significant input
Well,
Its easy if the source signal is present as one of the selections. No matter how bad the recording is/isn't. IF there is a difference the THD/smear will change or be different. The question is not can you identify the chips but can you hear a change and which selection do you prefer. Now theoretically you should prefer the source signal, however that might not be the case if you prefer some added THD and distortion or blurring of instruments and content.
Then again is there a difference or do we just think there is and all the selections are just a 741.
Regards
M. Gregg
That's the way I would normally approach any component change (such as an opamp in a CD player etc) . To just listen for the subtle clues, space around instruments, positioning, depth of soundstage and so on.
All this reminds me of the old adverts years ago for washing powders. New improved xyz appeared on our screens every few weeks and so by implication the original product must have been spectacularly bad... but was it
And so it is with the opamps. We've become conditioned to be told how "bad" something like the 741 is, and lets make no mistake, compared to todays devices it is bad on a technical level. When we come to actually do a blind test, that huge huge technical advantage isn't quite as obvious as we perhaps tell everyone. EnjoyI have been wondering of that imaging too. Because of this imaging many will pick orange. But 741?? Isn't it too good for 741? And how come orange has that extra information? Second order distortion will bring strong imaging and that op134. Other possibility is Jfet input. But still it's too different. Unfortunately I cannot use my transparent setup to find out shortly.
Pomegranate is also unique to me. In that I directly decide that I don't like it.
This is interesting,
Because original source material should sound different when bought from different manufacturers/sources. Its also interesting that analogue records did seem to have a different sound "Footprint" linked to record labels.
Its a shame there is not an OP27 in the test.
Regards
M. Gregg
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Its a shame there is not an OP27 in the test.
Regards
M. Gregg
Haven't got any of those
but there is the "wild card" in amongst all that lot.
Haven't got any of those
Its very interesting.
I hope everyone takes the time to listen.
Regards
M. Gregg
What is a "wild card?" If that is an opamp with excellent performance in certain parameter but not suitable for the application, I believe it is the pomgranate (or could be the orange, but I like the orange except that it is not so natural to my ears). Pomgranate is very aggressive. I don't know if it is my system limitation that makes me discard the sound.
No, it is not like that. I mean if instead of digitizing the output of the Marantz we run the analog output to amplifier and speaker and hear the difference there. May be Mooly can try it for himself. I'm too familiar with this kind of thing. And like Mondo, I can give myself 0% chance to hear any difference in this digital test (because it is not my first time either).
Why I can answer this poll, then? Well, I blind tested my self and there the result. Statistically, the validity depends on the number of trials. But I don't have time and my trial always reveal that I like Banana, Orange and Kiwi, and I don't like Pomgranate.
How did I do the trial? I just listened all files in a loop. The first song 3 cycles, all songs 1 cycle. During listening I wrote my impression (without knowing which is which). And I always found banana musical. Only in violin it doesn't perform so well but I'm not familiar with violin sound.
I gave value after writing my impression. Top 3 were Orange, Banana, Kiwi. I think Peach is number 4, don't remember.
Problem is I did the test using low quality opamp-based system. It was hard to "look through" the opamp system limitation.
I have at least 20 pieces of OP27. Why do you want it in the test?Its a shame there is not an OP27 in the test.
I think you have done quite well, I don't like Pomegranate either (To much smear) Just my thoughts.
Regards the OP27 I have found it quite good at replacing NE5534 in the output section in DAC's.
And yes there is something about Orange that stands out to me.
I find it all very interesting, and it will be even better when we know what each one is.
Regards
M. Gregg
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They're just so darn close. I used my "good" DAC, headphone amp and phones. Rather than trying to discern a bunch of stuff specific to highs, lows and such, I asked one simple question. Did I have an emotional response to the music? Or did it seem just so much background music that didn't draw me in? That made the selection much easier.
I'm fighting the same thing right now with an inexpensive CD player. It does everything you'd expect, but I feel no emotion when I listen to it. I have another player that puts you in the same room with the music and vocals.
Now, I may find out that this "emotion" is nothing more than a bunch of 3rd harmonic distortion and some overshoot, but what good is the system if it doesn't provide some involvement?
I'm fighting the same thing right now with an inexpensive CD player. It does everything you'd expect, but I feel no emotion when I listen to it. I have another player that puts you in the same room with the music and vocals.
Now, I may find out that this "emotion" is nothing more than a bunch of 3rd harmonic distortion and some overshoot, but what good is the system if it doesn't provide some involvement?
Files added to first post
So I was looking back on some earlier threads about opamps and you stated that the TL-0xx chips don't drive well below a 2K load yet you've put a 680 ohm load on the chips. I guess overload driving is part of the equation but when I design using opamps I'm very aware of their limitations and do not go out of my way to use them outside of their limitations.
It's entertaining but not really valid.
G²
Yes that's true, 2k is the generally accepted minimum figure for the TL072 but that's for delivering maximum voltage swing while running on its full supply. Here, and the output from each opamp is only around 3 volts or so pk/pk even at max 0db level off the disc. That gives is a fairly low current demand of around 4 ma on each opamp output stage. I think the 680 ohms gave a fair loading on the output stage in relation to the level.
