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Joined 2003
johnin,
Do you have any pictures of your friend's line array with the concave baffle? I want to try a concave baffle, but a little concerned about my ability to rout driver flats into a curved surface...do you know how he did it?
Thanks,
Paul
Paul S,
Personally, I prefer OB for both music and HT...the sound seems more "natural" without a box. In my case, I cannot place the speakers more than 4' from the rear wall...so damping the backwave to help with imaging.
4-way dipoles
Do you have any pictures of your friend's line array with the concave baffle? I want to try a concave baffle, but a little concerned about my ability to rout driver flats into a curved surface...do you know how he did it?
Thanks,
Paul
Paul S,
Personally, I prefer OB for both music and HT...the sound seems more "natural" without a box. In my case, I cannot place the speakers more than 4' from the rear wall...so damping the backwave to help with imaging.
4-way dipoles
Paul W said:
Dmitri's concave baffles aren't a continuous curve. He found that sweet spot too small and went to groups of 3. He's got pics and info at http://www.geocities.com/dmitrynizh/labaffles.htm
First I've gotta say -
I think you'll get to a better place quicker and easier if you'll figure a priority
Go for killer HT and do Music or
Go for killer 2 channel and do HT
You will eventually wind up at the same place, but you'll save money, time and effort if you choose one over the other now, rather than later on _big grin_
Just reading the thread - Mudge seems like he has a pretty good grasp
FWIW, one school of thought that I'm likely to become an adherent to - is that if you have a high resolution setup that throws a good soundstage - you'll do better with a phantom center - putting the center channel in is likely to _collapse_ the sound stage -
Makes sense to me.
Kinda like it's a whole lot easier to make a three legged stool stable than a 4 legged stool - Plus, If I put another Azura in the middle there won't be enough room for the screen _ big grin_
This is the route I'm going, crossing over from the Azuras to Sealed subs at 133 hz - later on to horns above and below.
Paul, since you're in Australia, you really may want to consider trying to hear some Azura's if you have not - Martin Seddon is in Perth - Also, Martin just finished a mold for his second version of the Azuras -
Since the original version of the Azuras is too big for Fedex, UPS, etc they are difficult to ship overseas. Not sure about version 2.
Not sure that Azuras are your cup of tea - but you may want to consider them.
While I think Mudge is correct in his reasoning ( and experiences I guess I'm prejudiced and think nothing will sound as good as front horns _big grin_
Regards
Ken L
I think you'll get to a better place quicker and easier if you'll figure a priority
Go for killer HT and do Music or
Go for killer 2 channel and do HT
You will eventually wind up at the same place, but you'll save money, time and effort if you choose one over the other now, rather than later on _big grin_
Mudge said:
Just reading the thread - Mudge seems like he has a pretty good grasp
FWIW, one school of thought that I'm likely to become an adherent to - is that if you have a high resolution setup that throws a good soundstage - you'll do better with a phantom center - putting the center channel in is likely to _collapse_ the sound stage -
Makes sense to me.
Kinda like it's a whole lot easier to make a three legged stool stable than a 4 legged stool - Plus, If I put another Azura in the middle there won't be enough room for the screen _ big grin_
Frode said:
This is the route I'm going, crossing over from the Azuras to Sealed subs at 133 hz - later on to horns above and below.
Paul, since you're in Australia, you really may want to consider trying to hear some Azura's if you have not - Martin Seddon is in Perth - Also, Martin just finished a mold for his second version of the Azuras -
Since the original version of the Azuras is too big for Fedex, UPS, etc they are difficult to ship overseas. Not sure about version 2.
Not sure that Azuras are your cup of tea - but you may want to consider them.
While I think Mudge is correct in his reasoning ( and experiences I guess I'm prejudiced and think nothing will sound as good as front horns _big grin_
Regards
Ken L
>I guess I'm prejudiced and think nothing will sound as good as front horns _big grin_
====
I've never understood why someone who spends inordinate amounts of time/energy agonizing over equipment/$$ for a killer HT doesn't use at least 800Hz (preferably 500Hz) horns/HE woofers for L-C-R sound playback to ~recreate the cinema experience.
I mean I watched many a movie on a big screen at drive-ins before I saw one at the Fabulous Fox Theater, but when the lights went down and the intro music started, well, I never went to the drive-in again..........
GM
====
I've never understood why someone who spends inordinate amounts of time/energy agonizing over equipment/$$ for a killer HT doesn't use at least 800Hz (preferably 500Hz) horns/HE woofers for L-C-R sound playback to ~recreate the cinema experience.
I mean I watched many a movie on a big screen at drive-ins before I saw one at the Fabulous Fox Theater, but when the lights went down and the intro music started, well, I never went to the drive-in again..........
GM
Going back on topic, cinema sound is about having the headroom available to reproduce massive transients in a large listening area.
To get that effect at home, without the distortion etc you get in a commercial cinema, you need either huge amounts of usable power or very efficient (and capable) speakers.
Which takes us back to the choice of the professionals, horns and line arrays.
There's a good paper on cinema sound at the JBL professional site, worth a read if you have any interest in the ultimate HT.
To get that effect at home, without the distortion etc you get in a commercial cinema, you need either huge amounts of usable power or very efficient (and capable) speakers.
Which takes us back to the choice of the professionals, horns and line arrays.
There's a good paper on cinema sound at the JBL professional site, worth a read if you have any interest in the ultimate HT.
>Perhaps you were distracted by the other activities that frequently meant those in the cars weren't very interested in the movies _bigger grin_
====
No, not really, I could get all of that kind of voyeurism in my 'hood. Anyway, I prefer to make it rather than watch it.
====
>Going back on topic, cinema sound is about having the headroom available to reproduce massive transients in a large listening area. To get that effect at home, without the distortion etc you get in a commercial cinema, you need either huge amounts of usable power or very efficient (and capable) speakers.
Which takes us back to the choice of the professionals, horns and line arrays.
There's a good paper on cinema sound at the JBL professional site, worth a read if you have any interest in the ultimate HT.
====
Not really, it's about making high SPL at acceptably low distortion when fired through a perforated screen into a large room. If you read that JBL doc you'll see transients are limited to 20dB, as is HT, well below what's typically found on vinyl/CDs.
WRT line arrays, I've yet to see any used in a cinema, and in live sound they're used to get adjustable pattern control, which isn't required in a typical HIFI or HT app and aren't practical in HT unless you use a phantom CC.
Really, they're mixing an increasing amount of the soundtrack into the CC, relegating the L/R channels to little more than special effects; so unless the release has a good 2.1 mode, the phantom mode may wind up sounding 'phantom'.
GM
====
No, not really, I could get all of that kind of voyeurism in my 'hood. Anyway, I prefer to make it rather than watch it.
====
>Going back on topic, cinema sound is about having the headroom available to reproduce massive transients in a large listening area. To get that effect at home, without the distortion etc you get in a commercial cinema, you need either huge amounts of usable power or very efficient (and capable) speakers.
Which takes us back to the choice of the professionals, horns and line arrays.
There's a good paper on cinema sound at the JBL professional site, worth a read if you have any interest in the ultimate HT.
====
Not really, it's about making high SPL at acceptably low distortion when fired through a perforated screen into a large room. If you read that JBL doc you'll see transients are limited to 20dB, as is HT, well below what's typically found on vinyl/CDs.
WRT line arrays, I've yet to see any used in a cinema, and in live sound they're used to get adjustable pattern control, which isn't required in a typical HIFI or HT app and aren't practical in HT unless you use a phantom CC.
Really, they're mixing an increasing amount of the soundtrack into the CC, relegating the L/R channels to little more than special effects; so unless the release has a good 2.1 mode, the phantom mode may wind up sounding 'phantom'.
GM
20dB? Excuse me?
For a start, dialogue is normally at 75dB (for clarity) and the peak sound level is 105dB for the full range channels and 115dB for the LFE. I make that as at least 30dB of range above normal. That's at the seating position a third of the way back into the auditorium. And the soundtrack doesn't have to run at 75dB continuously. And they do use that headroom in the mix, I've experienced peaks of over 100dB in a correctly setup and very capable HT.
The theoretical dynamic range of a cinema soundtrack is larger than that of a CD, and larger than the practical range of vinyl (unless you have a very capable TT and a good recording). Because of the silly power levels involved it may be that certain cinemas use compressors to reduce the demands on the system. A HT would probably benefit more from this, but if you go far enough (and we are talking ultimate here) then the greatly reduced power requirements of home reproduction would remove this need.
On the issue of the centre channel we are agreed though, too many engineers mix mostly into the centre channel. Of course if you used a pair of line arrays that imaged sufficiently well, the large sweetspot would remove the real need for a centre channel.
For a start, dialogue is normally at 75dB (for clarity) and the peak sound level is 105dB for the full range channels and 115dB for the LFE. I make that as at least 30dB of range above normal. That's at the seating position a third of the way back into the auditorium. And the soundtrack doesn't have to run at 75dB continuously. And they do use that headroom in the mix, I've experienced peaks of over 100dB in a correctly setup and very capable HT.
The theoretical dynamic range of a cinema soundtrack is larger than that of a CD, and larger than the practical range of vinyl (unless you have a very capable TT and a good recording). Because of the silly power levels involved it may be that certain cinemas use compressors to reduce the demands on the system. A HT would probably benefit more from this, but if you go far enough (and we are talking ultimate here) then the greatly reduced power requirements of home reproduction would remove this need.
On the issue of the centre channel we are agreed though, too many engineers mix mostly into the centre channel. Of course if you used a pair of line arrays that imaged sufficiently well, the large sweetspot would remove the real need for a centre channel.
Most processors if you specify no centre, will automatically mix LCR into LR. The centre channel is preserved, but instead of a discrete source, it appears as a phantom stereo image in the centre of the stereo pair.
Whilst you may have 5.1 channels of information in a digital soundtrack you don't need 5.1 speakers to reproduce it.
Whilst you may have 5.1 channels of information in a digital soundtrack you don't need 5.1 speakers to reproduce it.
In this case it would be an interesting exercise to compare the 2 approaches - with and without the centre channel. If a centre speaker is not necessary, then the money is best spent elsewhere. Still, some rooms may make this difficult.
I currently listen to movies in stereo as I don't have a receiver yet and I find that in the medium sized room there are times when voices are so effectively placed in the centre it appears as if coming from a single speaker in the centre.
My reasons for stereo use have to do with budget and I would in fact consider a DIY projector to give more impact for $$$ than the cost of surround speakers and a receiver, which will come later. I also have a pair of subs that need some power .....
I currently listen to movies in stereo as I don't have a receiver yet and I find that in the medium sized room there are times when voices are so effectively placed in the centre it appears as if coming from a single speaker in the centre.
My reasons for stereo use have to do with budget and I would in fact consider a DIY projector to give more impact for $$$ than the cost of surround speakers and a receiver, which will come later. I also have a pair of subs that need some power .....
My own experience has been that a dedicated center channel speaker provides a necessary function in locking dialogue into the center of the sound field, particularly for listeners far out of the sweet spot.
But my situation is not optimum in that a) with groups of 3 or more, somebody must sit directly in front of one of the L/R mains or even "outside" the stereo pair and b) my current speakers do not exhibit an especially wide image. So for listeners on the periphery, dialogue played through a phantom center collapses almost entirely into the nearest speaker. Not the case with an actual center, of course.
This is probably not a problem if you have a larger (deeper) room, smaller "audiences", or better speakers, but it's an important consideration for some of us IMHO. If you watch most of your movies alone or with just one other person, than it becomes far less of an issue of course.
But my situation is not optimum in that a) with groups of 3 or more, somebody must sit directly in front of one of the L/R mains or even "outside" the stereo pair and b) my current speakers do not exhibit an especially wide image. So for listeners on the periphery, dialogue played through a phantom center collapses almost entirely into the nearest speaker. Not the case with an actual center, of course.
This is probably not a problem if you have a larger (deeper) room, smaller "audiences", or better speakers, but it's an important consideration for some of us IMHO. If you watch most of your movies alone or with just one other person, than it becomes far less of an issue of course.
paulspencer said:
The main criteria here, IMHO, is the type of sound stage your L/R speakers throw and how wide it is, in relation to the room size.
In my case, I have extremely wide dispersion, one of the widest sweet spots around and it the instruments can be pretty well located. This is of course dependent on an appropriately engineered/recorded CD.
Also, my horns are large, I'm biamping through a digital crossover, and it is not feasible to make a center channel that is identical to the L/R.
Actually, I am going to have a little trouble Squeezing two Azurahorns in when I go back to a LCD projector and screen.
Plus, I have seen comments from two or three posters that I know and respect to the effect that they are setting a great sound stage yet find it collapses with a center channel. Planet 10 (Dave) is one of those _grin_
So when I get the HT set back up, I'm going with a "phantom center"
Regards
Ken L
My room is only 10' wide, with a 2 seater couch as the main listening / watching position. In this setup I am happy without a centre speaker.
If I moved to a larger room, with seating for more than 2 ( 4 at a push) then I'd build a centre to match my mains. (for the people outside the stereo sweetspot)
Rob
If I moved to a larger room, with seating for more than 2 ( 4 at a push) then I'd build a centre to match my mains. (for the people outside the stereo sweetspot)
Rob
>20dB? Excuse me?
====
Do the math: Optical film tracks have a 105dB of dynamic range capability and the dialog channel is set to an 85dB reference level. 105-85 = 20dB. The special effects soundtrack is just that and doesn't increase the dynamic range capability of the mains/surrounds per se.
====
>For a start, dialogue is normally at 75dB (for clarity) and the peak sound level is 105dB for the full range channels and 115dB for the LFE.
====
OK, show us where 75dB is the cinema/DD/DTS dialog reference. Anyway, we are amplitude oriented animals and one reason why the dynamic headroom is intentionally limited, not expanded, in these apps.
There is a lower reference level for broadcast movies, though it's 75-82dB depending how much the special effects masks the dialog, but peak SPLs are lowered also since the 20dB limit is set by the mixer's dialog normalization/dynamic range compressor ckt..
====
>I make that as at least 30dB of range above normal. That's at the seating position a third of the way back into the auditorium.
====
GIGO. If you read the JBL manual you'll see that the references are at 2/3 back.
====
>And the soundtrack doesn't have to run at 75dB continuously. And they do use that headroom in the mix, I've experienced peaks of over 100dB in a correctly setup and very capable HT.
====
I assume what you're alluding to is not the dynamic headroom/channel, but the peak SPL that you can achieve with special effects, which with the current DD/DTS mixing guidelines can be as much as 115dB in a cinema and 122dB in a 5.1 HT app., with the latter too loud for most folks if I'm to believe what I've read on several HT forums.
====
>The theoretical dynamic range of a cinema soundtrack is larger than that of a CD, and larger than the practical range of vinyl (unless you have a very capable TT and a good recording).
====
Please elaborate, with references. My info says photographic soundtracks are limited to 98dB of dynamic range with a DD format/105dB for optical.
GM
====
Do the math: Optical film tracks have a 105dB of dynamic range capability and the dialog channel is set to an 85dB reference level. 105-85 = 20dB. The special effects soundtrack is just that and doesn't increase the dynamic range capability of the mains/surrounds per se.
====
>For a start, dialogue is normally at 75dB (for clarity) and the peak sound level is 105dB for the full range channels and 115dB for the LFE.
====
OK, show us where 75dB is the cinema/DD/DTS dialog reference. Anyway, we are amplitude oriented animals and one reason why the dynamic headroom is intentionally limited, not expanded, in these apps.
There is a lower reference level for broadcast movies, though it's 75-82dB depending how much the special effects masks the dialog, but peak SPLs are lowered also since the 20dB limit is set by the mixer's dialog normalization/dynamic range compressor ckt..
====
>I make that as at least 30dB of range above normal. That's at the seating position a third of the way back into the auditorium.
====
GIGO. If you read the JBL manual you'll see that the references are at 2/3 back.
====
>And the soundtrack doesn't have to run at 75dB continuously. And they do use that headroom in the mix, I've experienced peaks of over 100dB in a correctly setup and very capable HT.
====
I assume what you're alluding to is not the dynamic headroom/channel, but the peak SPL that you can achieve with special effects, which with the current DD/DTS mixing guidelines can be as much as 115dB in a cinema and 122dB in a 5.1 HT app., with the latter too loud for most folks if I'm to believe what I've read on several HT forums.
====
>The theoretical dynamic range of a cinema soundtrack is larger than that of a CD, and larger than the practical range of vinyl (unless you have a very capable TT and a good recording).
====
Please elaborate, with references. My info says photographic soundtracks are limited to 98dB of dynamic range with a DD format/105dB for optical.
GM
GM,
My mistake, I read it a couple of weeks ago and my memory is none too good.
But back to my point. Peak dialogue intelligiblity is at around 80dB IIRC. Imagine what dialogue would be like closer to the front of the theatre if it was reproduced at 85dB 2/3 of the way back. Unpleasant would be putting it mildy. Also consider that 75dB requires 1/10th the power of 85dB, and this is nearly continuous power.
On the subject of dynamic range, in digital sources that is theoretically determined by the sample bit depth if I'm not mistaken, and DD is normally sampled at 20Bits per sample, giving 12dB more range than 16bit PCM (if I've done the maths right). Of course, depending on the reconstruction filter you might lose some of that range.
The dynamic range of the subwoofer channel in the home is 115dB if used solely for the LFE channel and 121dB if all bass is redirected to it. And I understand exactly why people have problems with that, and I think you do too if your sig is anything to go by. Loud is truly beautiful if it's clean Many people miss out on that.
I'm happy to be proved wrong of course if anyone can dig up Dolby's mixing guidelines or anything else that contradicts me.
My mistake, I read it a couple of weeks ago and my memory is none too good.
But back to my point. Peak dialogue intelligiblity is at around 80dB IIRC. Imagine what dialogue would be like closer to the front of the theatre if it was reproduced at 85dB 2/3 of the way back. Unpleasant would be putting it mildy. Also consider that 75dB requires 1/10th the power of 85dB, and this is nearly continuous power.
On the subject of dynamic range, in digital sources that is theoretically determined by the sample bit depth if I'm not mistaken, and DD is normally sampled at 20Bits per sample, giving 12dB more range than 16bit PCM (if I've done the maths right). Of course, depending on the reconstruction filter you might lose some of that range.
The dynamic range of the subwoofer channel in the home is 115dB if used solely for the LFE channel and 121dB if all bass is redirected to it. And I understand exactly why people have problems with that, and I think you do too if your sig is anything to go by. Loud is truly beautiful if it's clean
Many people miss out on that.I'm happy to be proved wrong of course if anyone can dig up Dolby's mixing guidelines or anything else that contradicts me.
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