Well, I must admit I havent experimented with such small drivers in OB - but if people can achieve bass from high efficient fullrange in OB.....why shouldnt you with a better suited driver.
But thats true, I cannot promiss anything, and if you want to be absolutely certain of the result you should built a "kit", but in the end you may not like that either.
But I can say, that if you like boomy bass, then OB is not your thing - OB is not about quantity but more of quality
But thats true, I cannot promiss anything, and if you want to be absolutely certain of the result you should built a "kit", but in the end you may not like that either.
But I can say, that if you like boomy bass, then OB is not your thing - OB is not about quantity but more of quality
Its good quality drivers, and there are plenty designs to "steal" from, if your experiment dont work
So, why not just mount them in a baffle and listen
Because of no box there is no boxresonanse and because of that bass will actually go very low, but at lower level - but I think that because bass is in phase you are able to hear those low frequencies, with a bit of support from the room - but in this lies the problem with drivers Xmax - there is nothing to cut the lowest frequencies from the driver, and it will move more than if mounted in BR - but in BR you will have phase problems, and so on.
So, why not just mount them in a baffle and listen
Because of no box there is no boxresonanse and because of that bass will actually go very low, but at lower level - but I think that because bass is in phase you are able to hear those low frequencies, with a bit of support from the room - but in this lies the problem with drivers Xmax - there is nothing to cut the lowest frequencies from the driver, and it will move more than if mounted in BR - but in BR you will have phase problems, and so on.
inrank,
I just saw this topic yesterday so pardon my coming in late. One thing that caught my attention was your intended room size, it's just about the size of my living room.
It sounds like you haven't experimented with your FR125S's yet. Do so. I've had mine in 3 or 4 different size/style baffles over the last 4mo or so and they've sounded nice in all of them, obviously (unfortunately) the larger baffles sound better.
Here are mine in thier latest guise. (My wife let me push around some furniture for a weekend listining session. Sweet.) They're 16"Wx48"H. The dipole bass is a pair of 8" Dayton RS225 per driven by a 75W MCM -18db plate amp. They can get pretty darn loud in a room this size and if I turn up the plate amp I can thump like a disco.
I just want to weigh in and agree with tinitus, and adason earlier.
Pick an idea you like, cob up some quick baffles and listen for a week or so. In the raw you'll know whether or not you'll like them. If so, then refine them.
[/IMG]
With what I have here I'm going to try a single speaker using 2 FR125S's in .5 for the top panel as mentioned early in this topic to see how that sounds with the dipole bass. If it works out well I'll spring for some WR125's for the .5's.
R/
Jim
I just saw this topic yesterday so pardon my coming in late. One thing that caught my attention was your intended room size, it's just about the size of my living room.
It sounds like you haven't experimented with your FR125S's yet. Do so. I've had mine in 3 or 4 different size/style baffles over the last 4mo or so and they've sounded nice in all of them, obviously (unfortunately) the larger baffles sound better.
Here are mine in thier latest guise. (My wife let me push around some furniture for a weekend listining session. Sweet.) They're 16"Wx48"H. The dipole bass is a pair of 8" Dayton RS225 per driven by a 75W MCM -18db plate amp. They can get pretty darn loud in a room this size and if I turn up the plate amp I can thump like a disco.
I just want to weigh in and agree with tinitus, and adason earlier.
Pick an idea you like, cob up some quick baffles and listen for a week or so. In the raw you'll know whether or not you'll like them. If so, then refine them.
With what I have here I'm going to try a single speaker using 2 FR125S's in .5 for the top panel as mentioned early in this topic to see how that sounds with the dipole bass. If it works out well I'll spring for some WR125's for the .5's.
R/
Jim
inrank,
If you are talking about using one amp for 4 drivers, 2 per speaker, I don't know if you can do that. Even if you can, what a wiring nightmare!
Here is the back of one of them (before I turned the bottom drivers around). See what I mean about just building one to try.
2x4's, pressboard and MDF and it surely sounds better than it looks.
I've tried the FR's straight off the reciever as well as through the 120hz high pass off the amp and tend to like them straight off the reciever better, which is why I'm going to try the .5 idea (learning by experience). I keep the dipole bass xo at about 70-80hz on the plate amp and power set at just past half. Both the MCM amps cost $130, IIRC. I also noticed that, as they sit, the imaging and sound benifited from using 2 (18x24) panels of 1.5" egg crate foam from PE just wedged in between the 2x4's. It makes a kind of half pipe of egg crate out the back which tightens everything up.
[/IMG]
I'm working on some "keeper" dipole bass cabinets now and might have them done by end of this weekend. I'll worry about the top section once I try the .5 set up.
R/
Jim
If you are talking about using one amp for 4 drivers, 2 per speaker, I don't know if you can do that. Even if you can, what a wiring nightmare!
Here is the back of one of them (before I turned the bottom drivers around). See what I mean about just building one to try.
2x4's, pressboard and MDF and it surely sounds better than it looks.
I've tried the FR's straight off the reciever as well as through the 120hz high pass off the amp and tend to like them straight off the reciever better, which is why I'm going to try the .5 idea (learning by experience). I keep the dipole bass xo at about 70-80hz on the plate amp and power set at just past half. Both the MCM amps cost $130, IIRC. I also noticed that, as they sit, the imaging and sound benifited from using 2 (18x24) panels of 1.5" egg crate foam from PE just wedged in between the 2x4's. It makes a kind of half pipe of egg crate out the back which tightens everything up.
I'm working on some "keeper" dipole bass cabinets now and might have them done by end of this weekend. I'll worry about the top section once I try the .5 set up.
R/
Jim
well i think i can run 4 drivers from the same amp, its a 200W amp so its got enough oomph and as the 4 drivers will be wired as pairs in series then those two pairs in paralel into the amp so the original impedence is the same then 50W per driver 
i was thinking of somehow rolling off the bass of the FR125S (for higher volume levels), the crossover point on the sub amp only goes up to 150Hz though.
i was thinking of somehow rolling off the bass of the FR125S (for higher volume levels), the crossover point on the sub amp only goes up to 150Hz though.
I understand, both about the wiring /amp as well as the FR at high volumes. They do their damnest to try and cover everything well and sometimes it's down right scary watching them throw. I do admit that their excursion extremes is sort of my volume control, which is really OK by me. Keeps the neighbors from knocking on my door. When running mine through the amps 120Hz high pass I can turn the receiver volume up a notch or two more.
The 150Hz sub problem "should be" lessened by the .5 WR125 along with the FR125. That's what I'm going to check out. Much of what was posted earlier really got me thinking about a WR / FR combo for the mains, allowing me to use the bass unit as low as I can.
I still think you should give them a chance. If they just won't cut it, then install maybe a 6.5" - 7" / tweeter combo in their holes and sell them off. I was initially disappointed when I listened to mine in a much larger room but, in these smaller spaces they really shine.
R/
Jim
The 150Hz sub problem "should be" lessened by the .5 WR125 along with the FR125. That's what I'm going to check out. Much of what was posted earlier really got me thinking about a WR / FR combo for the mains, allowing me to use the bass unit as low as I can.
I still think you should give them a chance. If they just won't cut it, then install maybe a 6.5" - 7" / tweeter combo in their holes and sell them off. I was initially disappointed when I listened to mine in a much larger room but, in these smaller spaces they really shine.
R/
Jim
yeah, i am still definatley keeping them and going to experiment in open baffle along with either the 4 subs or a couple of extremis.
will be interesing to see how you get on with the 0.5 with WR125, sounds promising.
what kind of rough estimate are you getting for the bass with your current configuration? does having the woofers in bi-pole make much of a difference than having them both facing forward?
thanks
will be interesing to see how you get on with the 0.5 with WR125, sounds promising.
what kind of rough estimate are you getting for the bass with your current configuration? does having the woofers in bi-pole make much of a difference than having them both facing forward?
thanks
Well I robbed the FR125 out of the right speaker and installed it 1/2" under the other FR in the left speaker to check out the .5 idea. The baffle is 16" wide giving me a roll off at 285Hz requiring a 4.47 inductor. All I had laying around was a 5Mh so I used that giving a 1st order roll off at 255Hz.
The difference in bass output is definately audible. Voicing is only slightly affected. To me the FR can be real pointed, and I like that about it. With the .5 playing there is a slight loss of the razor sharpness when I'm real close to the drivers, like going from an ice pick to a phillips screwdriver if you know what I mean. Beyond 2 feet or so all I noticed is better mid bass.
So I think I'll be ordering a pair of WR125's to pair up with my FR125's.
R/
Jim
The difference in bass output is definately audible. Voicing is only slightly affected. To me the FR can be real pointed, and I like that about it. With the .5 playing there is a slight loss of the razor sharpness when I'm real close to the drivers, like going from an ice pick to a phillips screwdriver if you know what I mean. Beyond 2 feet or so all I noticed is better mid bass.
So I think I'll be ordering a pair of WR125's to pair up with my FR125's.
R/
Jim
inrank,
I'm a just a tinkerer with OB. In my opinion, a PA driver would work in OB. It has been my experience that ANY driver works, although some are most definately more suited for it. As for the PA driver, would it go down far enough. Just for discussion sake, say you have a 15" PA driver with a Qts of .56 and an Fs of 40Hz and a 12" audio driver with a Q of .89 and an Fs of 33Hz. I'd opt for the 12" audio driver. It goes lower and has a higher Qts which will give it more of a natural hump near Fs, right where you need it the most in OB. It's also allows a smaller speaker package.
I finally unzipped a file I've had for some time named Dipole.xls. Not sure where I got it from (anybody?) but it's a pretty indepth spreadsheet full of embeded formulas. Anyway, it's interesting to see the graphed responses to the above scenario. I look at the raw driver responces since I don't have any way of actively EQ-ing anything. If anyone can give us the source you should get it and try your various driver ideas out on it and actually see the differences.
I just recieved my second pair of FR125S's. Seems there was a shipping error (got it in 2 days BTW!). Called CSS straight away to tell them and it worked out to my benifit. So I now have 4 FR125S's.
I'm not sure which way I liked more, one driver facing rearward or both facing forward. I won't be able to say for sure until I listen to both again 'in room'. I've found that to be critical. Listen to then in the intended room before you make a decision or statement.
Have you been following the Dipole Stereo Bass topic on the subwoofer forum? Lots of pertinant info being traded there. Never tried a U baffle bass unit.
Finally, Yes, I bet you could use one amp to power all 4 drivers. I guess your 3 main concerns would be 1) physical size, 2) amplifier headroom and 3) balance controls near the XO point. If you could live with a large by huge cab and will reach Xmax before amp distortion then I guess it would be OK if your XO was low enough to not include much if any any stereo. I have a smallish quality boxed sub that I've swapped in and out during listening periods. It only goes down to 40Hz and my crappy dipoles equal it in intensity and tone. Ahh, but it is only one boxed sub vs. 2 amps and 4 drivers in OB! Cost is about the same for both. I just want stereo all the way down to the point where bass tends to be mono....and then some!
R/
Jim
I'm a just a tinkerer with OB. In my opinion, a PA driver would work in OB. It has been my experience that ANY driver works, although some are most definately more suited for it. As for the PA driver, would it go down far enough. Just for discussion sake, say you have a 15" PA driver with a Qts of .56 and an Fs of 40Hz and a 12" audio driver with a Q of .89 and an Fs of 33Hz. I'd opt for the 12" audio driver. It goes lower and has a higher Qts which will give it more of a natural hump near Fs, right where you need it the most in OB. It's also allows a smaller speaker package.
I finally unzipped a file I've had for some time named Dipole.xls. Not sure where I got it from (anybody?) but it's a pretty indepth spreadsheet full of embeded formulas. Anyway, it's interesting to see the graphed responses to the above scenario. I look at the raw driver responces since I don't have any way of actively EQ-ing anything. If anyone can give us the source you should get it and try your various driver ideas out on it and actually see the differences.
I just recieved my second pair of FR125S's. Seems there was a shipping error (got it in 2 days BTW!). Called CSS straight away to tell them and it worked out to my benifit. So I now have 4 FR125S's.
I'm not sure which way I liked more, one driver facing rearward or both facing forward. I won't be able to say for sure until I listen to both again 'in room'. I've found that to be critical. Listen to then in the intended room before you make a decision or statement.
Have you been following the Dipole Stereo Bass topic on the subwoofer forum? Lots of pertinant info being traded there. Never tried a U baffle bass unit.
Finally, Yes, I bet you could use one amp to power all 4 drivers. I guess your 3 main concerns would be 1) physical size, 2) amplifier headroom and 3) balance controls near the XO point. If you could live with a large by huge cab and will reach Xmax before amp distortion then I guess it would be OK if your XO was low enough to not include much if any any stereo. I have a smallish quality boxed sub that I've swapped in and out during listening periods. It only goes down to 40Hz and my crappy dipoles equal it in intensity and tone. Ahh, but it is only one boxed sub vs. 2 amps and 4 drivers in OB! Cost is about the same for both. I just want stereo all the way down to the point where bass tends to be mono....and then some!
R/
Jim
cool, looking forward to hearing about the 0.5 way, i think i might buy two wr125s and do them in that configuration and experiment in OB.
what will the wiring look like for the 0,5 way?
and will having this solve the baffle step and how wide will the baffle's need to be at least, thinking of 12"-15" and roughly 40" tall.
probably leave the sub as it is for the moment and see how the FR and WR turn out before buying and extremis.
how about having the WR facing upwards in OB in a wide and thin cabinet but with no back, so semi OB.....
what will the wiring look like for the 0,5 way?
and will having this solve the baffle step and how wide will the baffle's need to be at least, thinking of 12"-15" and roughly 40" tall.
probably leave the sub as it is for the moment and see how the FR and WR turn out before buying and extremis.
how about having the WR facing upwards in OB
in a wide and thin cabinet but with no back, so semi OB.....Not sure about the WR facing upwards, seems to be bacwards. I think that plan is normally implimented with the FR firing upwards and the WR firing forward.
I think it solves alot of the baffle step issues of a small OB. You can try it out simply yourself and I recommend you do it to see whether or not you need / want to purchase the WR's.
What I did was to wire one FR to my A channel / left and wire the second one to my B channel / left with a 5Mh inductor. I started off by listening to just the A channel and then powered the B channel. Instant difference in bass fullness. I think that instant difference in fullness is the .5 baffle step solution. Oh I'm sure there are peaks and valleys all over the place in the configuration but point is that it has a definate positive effect.
My main panel will be determined by my dipole / U baffle (whichever one it ends up to be) width, probably 12" or so. 40" high is about all I like too. Sitting height for me is between 28 and 34" depending on how Comfortably Numb I want to be. That leaves enough space at the top of a 40" baffle for the .5 driver to fit well.
R/
Jim
I think it solves alot of the baffle step issues of a small OB. You can try it out simply yourself and I recommend you do it to see whether or not you need / want to purchase the WR's.
What I did was to wire one FR to my A channel / left and wire the second one to my B channel / left with a 5Mh inductor. I started off by listening to just the A channel and then powered the B channel. Instant difference in bass fullness. I think that instant difference in fullness is the .5 baffle step solution. Oh I'm sure there are peaks and valleys all over the place in the configuration but point is that it has a definate positive effect.
My main panel will be determined by my dipole / U baffle (whichever one it ends up to be) width, probably 12" or so. 40" high is about all I like too. Sitting height for me is between 28 and 34" depending on how Comfortably Numb I want to be. That leaves enough space at the top of a 40" baffle for the .5 driver to fit well.
R/
Jim
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