Hi all
Would like to build solid and high quality monitors. Just for every day background listening. I run my main towers when I need higher spl and more bass.
I have heard pretty good about Satori MW16P midrange and decided to use these.
I am openminded what tweeter should be very good match to these midranges.
I prefer tweeter which is:
*price range up to 250usd
*musical
*not fatiguing
*warm
*lively
Some suggest directly TW29DN - but maybe anything else that fits to my criterias?
Midrnage: Satori MW16P Black Egyptian Reed Cone Woofer
Would like to build solid and high quality monitors. Just for every day background listening. I run my main towers when I need higher spl and more bass.
I have heard pretty good about Satori MW16P midrange and decided to use these.
I am openminded what tweeter should be very good match to these midranges.
I prefer tweeter which is:
*price range up to 250usd
*musical
*not fatiguing
*warm
*lively
Some suggest directly TW29DN - but maybe anything else that fits to my criterias?
Midrnage: Satori MW16P Black Egyptian Reed Cone Woofer
Jeff Bagby’s Kairos (very well regarded satori monitor with MW16p) uses the TW29R and Troels Gravesen really likes the TW29RN if you read his site (he compares them to the Be version) with comments that anything more is down to personal preference rather than sound quality per se.
i guess that ring radiators might loose to much high frequencies off axis for casual background listening, i think this kind of speakers needs a tailored dispersion
Some did use the Scan-Speak Illuminator D3004/602010 with success wthat Satori. I never heared it myself, but it's reported to be a very good match. And Jef Bagby did also build his Auricle monitor with that woofer and a Raal 70-20XR ribbon tweeter, but i don't know if that ribbon tweeter is still availeble and if it fits your budget...
Viawave GRT waveguided sealed ribbon could be perfect match. This one could work well with symetrical LR2, though LR4 might be needed to achieve better dispersion characteristics around crossover point.
You may go with SB Satori TW29R and build SB Acoustics ARA. This is quite easy job - all the parts available localy, including cabinets.
Standard ARA have quite good reviews - take a look on this:
SB Acoustics ARA Muse & Review – Musings of an Audio Guy
Oh, I also had a short listen to a pair of $6000 Dynaudio C1s which were not broken in, driven by a $6000 CD player and a $2000 Chinese integrated amplifier, using dunno what cables at an acquaintance’s place. Hard to come to fair conclusions given the very different setups, but I still have a nagging feeling that the vocal imaging specificity of the ARAs is better.
If budget permits, go with Beryllium Satori TW29BN
SB offers crossover for both versions.
I have my own schematics for TW29R and TW29BN. They are close in performance, green is TW29BN and red is silk TW29R
Sure, beryllium version sound more live and more natural.
By the way, if you are in Tallinn, come to listen before you start to build any.
I have both speakers available:
SB Acoustics ARA Beryllium dome Special Edition - FineTuning by StereoArt
SB Acoustics ARA Silk dome Special Edition - FineTuning by StereoArt
I ll go for TW29BN - after some 4 hour listening test in TALLINN 😉
It can be chrystal clear, but still sound enough warm. Cost is very high, but it just is capable doing some things silk is never. Both are good, BUT just abit different.
It can be chrystal clear, but still sound enough warm. Cost is very high, but it just is capable doing some things silk is never. Both are good, BUT just abit different.
BlieSMa T25A-6, T25B-6, T25D-6, T25S-6 | HiFiCompass
The silk Bliesma should be out soon.
I am with rinx, Be is the **** if you can drop the coin on it- never harsh, super detailed.
The silk Bliesma should be out soon.
I am with rinx, Be is the **** if you can drop the coin on it- never harsh, super detailed.
If you don't want to lose sparkle in the high frequencies, over a range of listening positions, with casual listening then I recommend this too.
When I tried the DXT this was one of the first things I noticed. Other waveguides will do something similar.
Sparkle? The DXT?
Cause I find normal domes to be more "sparkly" since they hit more reflection.
Not easy to get (understand), cause the sparkle thing is maybe the 6k to 8 k hz experience and a tweeter horn is still flat there : it drops after and anyway it seems flatted with a cap at the end !
Is this because the horn gives a narrow windows ?
Is this because the horn gives a narrow windows ?
What I usually miss in many constructions. Is the integration between midrange and tweeter. So when I started out building speakers, I started with paper midranges. And I always missed something. First of all I used to big a midrange with a breakup that messed up things to soon. Then the off-axis messed it up and then my front baffle was wrong.
For me it worked best - the first time - with an 5" Accuton midrange on an Avalon-like sloped front. Now I found my new "precious" in waveguides and better power response - dispersion and smoothness of FR.
Now I use an alu midrange and cant see myself going back to soft cones again. It's like if you first tried that pistonic motion - then it's difficult to leave 😀
😀 I can't tell anything here as my main is an aluminum cone as well (11 cm middle of the surround)... fireing from 100 hz to circa 2500 acoustically 😛
What do you use as a tweeter horn driver combo please ?
As all is about trade off, it would be fair to say also what is lost with horned teeter vs direct one. And what is the main advantage of horned tweeter : when I read it, I understand people using it want to cut-off below 2K hz.
But is it a real world winner above 2K crossover ? When you look at the distortion measurements of the Seas DXT, you also can see a raising in odd harmonics as low as below 10K Hz as a counterpart of the better tweeter low end... Center to Center is also bigger. It's all if today tweeter should also reproduce high mids
What do you use as a tweeter horn driver combo please ?
As all is about trade off, it would be fair to say also what is lost with horned teeter vs direct one. And what is the main advantage of horned tweeter : when I read it, I understand people using it want to cut-off below 2K hz.
But is it a real world winner above 2K crossover ? When you look at the distortion measurements of the Seas DXT, you also can see a raising in odd harmonics as low as below 10K Hz as a counterpart of the better tweeter low end... Center to Center is also bigger. It's all if today tweeter should also reproduce high mids
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I borrowed some ideas from Heissmann DXT-MON
DXT-MON | 5 ″ 1 ″ | Near field monitor | Compact speaker
Then I added two SB23NRX below around 500hz, that run off slowly in a closed box belox 70hz, where my 4 subs take over - with some ideas borrowed from Geddes' multi-sub theory, where phase-shift are smaller if the subwoofers blend/overlap with the mains, rather than cross over at a fixed frequency.
The DXT works great here.... maybe a different waveguide would work better, but then the CTC wuold also be bigger.
I cross at 2kHz with a 5" Alu from Acoustic Energy - looks like this one:
Acoustic Energy AE1 Mk.III Reference Special Edition loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
I switched a pair for a set of Morel Supreme I had on the shelf, from someone who also know the designer of the driver - which might explain how he got his hands on the drivers in mint condition to begin with.
My measurements look very much like the ones from Heissmann, even though I cross a bit higher - still with fully active LR4.
I have this idea that it works best to mate similar driver types. So that's why I like that both the tweeter and the midrange are metal. I did look at getting a 3D print of some open source waveguide for the SB26ADC. But the DXT was so cheap and was already made, with excellent measurements and designs, to back up the reason to use it, instead of pulling hairs on some DIY tweeter project 😀
DXT-MON | 5 ″ 1 ″ | Near field monitor | Compact speaker
Then I added two SB23NRX below around 500hz, that run off slowly in a closed box belox 70hz, where my 4 subs take over - with some ideas borrowed from Geddes' multi-sub theory, where phase-shift are smaller if the subwoofers blend/overlap with the mains, rather than cross over at a fixed frequency.
The DXT works great here.... maybe a different waveguide would work better, but then the CTC wuold also be bigger.
I cross at 2kHz with a 5" Alu from Acoustic Energy - looks like this one:
Acoustic Energy AE1 Mk.III Reference Special Edition loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
I switched a pair for a set of Morel Supreme I had on the shelf, from someone who also know the designer of the driver - which might explain how he got his hands on the drivers in mint condition to begin with.
My measurements look very much like the ones from Heissmann, even though I cross a bit higher - still with fully active LR4.
I have this idea that it works best to mate similar driver types. So that's why I like that both the tweeter and the midrange are metal. I did look at getting a 3D print of some open source waveguide for the SB26ADC. But the DXT was so cheap and was already made, with excellent measurements and designs, to back up the reason to use it, instead of pulling hairs on some DIY tweeter project 😀
Well done,
Phil Jones 's mids are playing great. You prefered a DXT over a Morel Supreme 😱 ! If I had a supreme to pair with an aluminium cone, I will try to remove the ferro fluid due to the very good power handling of these Dynaudio bad clones.
How did you time off-set the DXT ? You measured the acoustic center on the baffle then delayed with a active filter to match the acoustic centers and then again you added a full cycle delay at the crossover frequency because the LR24 ?
I'm going to try it, first time to me (will use J. Bagby impulse overlaping way)...going with passive parts and geometrical off-set, I'm a little anxious of the result... will see !
For me the choice of the C to C increase due to the little horned tweeter is a mystery...People seem to like them despite the extra vertical spacing. I just try to understand that and the part of the vertical timing offset and lobbing between the mid and the tweeter vis a vis of the filter slope, not easy to get. Perhaps the trade off with the horn here is just better and explain the tweeter horn hype we see from several years now ? However does this smooth matching also counts if one reduce the mid size for a 3" mid and a higher crossover towards 3k hz where the tweeter will have to handle less low end ????
ah, I was given some explains about vertical C to C as well as a simulator link from Tolvan's softs... that helps a lot for the understanding 🙂 !
Phil Jones 's mids are playing great. You prefered a DXT over a Morel Supreme 😱 ! If I had a supreme to pair with an aluminium cone, I will try to remove the ferro fluid due to the very good power handling of these Dynaudio bad clones.
How did you time off-set the DXT ? You measured the acoustic center on the baffle then delayed with a active filter to match the acoustic centers and then again you added a full cycle delay at the crossover frequency because the LR24 ?
I'm going to try it, first time to me (will use J. Bagby impulse overlaping way)...going with passive parts and geometrical off-set, I'm a little anxious of the result... will see !
For me the choice of the C to C increase due to the little horned tweeter is a mystery...People seem to like them despite the extra vertical spacing. I just try to understand that and the part of the vertical timing offset and lobbing between the mid and the tweeter vis a vis of the filter slope, not easy to get. Perhaps the trade off with the horn here is just better and explain the tweeter horn hype we see from several years now ? However does this smooth matching also counts if one reduce the mid size for a 3" mid and a higher crossover towards 3k hz where the tweeter will have to handle less low end ????
ah, I was given some explains about vertical C to C as well as a simulator link from Tolvan's softs... that helps a lot for the understanding 🙂 !
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