Hi all, new to the forum... Not an extreme 'audiophile' or anything. But I do love music and have assembled two elekit amps and one preamp.
I have a TU-8200 w/ an 8500 preamp on JBL 4312M II compact monitors and a TU-8600 on Klipsch Heresy IV speakers and for input, a Technics SL-1200MK3D turntable...and an iPhone. Love all the amps, and am really pleased with the new 8600 in general.
I have noticed one issue though, the turntable sounds great running through the 8200 even without a preamp, but pretty ... not as great ... running through the 8600 with no preamp.
I want to learn a little more about the technical side and was wondering if anyone could provide an explanation as to why that may be so. On the practical side, the 8500 doesn't match the 8600 aesthetically so I don't want it sitting next to it on the shelf!
I won't rule out anything I may have screwed up on the build, but I'm inclined to think it's not an issue there. And it doesn't sound terrible or anything, just weak in comparison to a computer or phone input, which is the opposite of my other elekit set up.
I have a TU-8200 w/ an 8500 preamp on JBL 4312M II compact monitors and a TU-8600 on Klipsch Heresy IV speakers and for input, a Technics SL-1200MK3D turntable...and an iPhone. Love all the amps, and am really pleased with the new 8600 in general.
I have noticed one issue though, the turntable sounds great running through the 8200 even without a preamp, but pretty ... not as great ... running through the 8600 with no preamp.
I want to learn a little more about the technical side and was wondering if anyone could provide an explanation as to why that may be so. On the practical side, the 8500 doesn't match the 8600 aesthetically so I don't want it sitting next to it on the shelf!
I won't rule out anything I may have screwed up on the build, but I'm inclined to think it's not an issue there. And it doesn't sound terrible or anything, just weak in comparison to a computer or phone input, which is the opposite of my other elekit set up.
A turntable usually requires a special circuit called an RIAA phono preamplifier.
This circuit converts the signal from the turntable cartridge to a standard signal.
The RIAA circuit is in many preamplifiers, and in many integrated amplifiers,
but is not included in either the TU-8200 or the TU-8600 integrated amplifiers.
The turntable cannot be directly connected to either of your integrated amplifiers,
because the cartridge signal is very weak and skewed in frequency response,
unless it is sent through an RIAA phono preamplifier circuit first.
You must connect the Elekit TU-8500 Preamplifier between the turntable and the
integrated amplifier, plugging the turntable into the RIAA phono inputs of the TU-8500.
The line outputs of the TU-8500 will then be a standard signal that can be connected
to either of your integrated amplifiers.
This circuit converts the signal from the turntable cartridge to a standard signal.
The RIAA circuit is in many preamplifiers, and in many integrated amplifiers,
but is not included in either the TU-8200 or the TU-8600 integrated amplifiers.
The turntable cannot be directly connected to either of your integrated amplifiers,
because the cartridge signal is very weak and skewed in frequency response,
unless it is sent through an RIAA phono preamplifier circuit first.
You must connect the Elekit TU-8500 Preamplifier between the turntable and the
integrated amplifier, plugging the turntable into the RIAA phono inputs of the TU-8500.
The line outputs of the TU-8500 will then be a standard signal that can be connected
to either of your integrated amplifiers.
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Hi there. You don't say if your turntable is connected to a phono preamp, such as the one in the TU8500 before it goes into the power amp (TU8200 or TU8600). Is your cartridge a moving magnet (MM) or moving coil (MC)? Each requires different levels of amplification. All phono cartridges require RIAA equalization to boost the bass frequencies and reduce the high frequency levels which are embedded into the grooves of the records.
I just finished my TU8500 preamp build on Monday and used its phono section for my VPI turntable & Hana EL cartridge. The preamp is connected to my TU8600S. First impression is that it sounds better than my standalone tube phono preamp, which costs more than this preamp. As for esthetics, the front face plates of the TU8600 and TU8500 don't match because the TU8500 was intended for the TU8200 amp. That said, both look OK together on my equipment stand.
I just finished my TU8500 preamp build on Monday and used its phono section for my VPI turntable & Hana EL cartridge. The preamp is connected to my TU8600S. First impression is that it sounds better than my standalone tube phono preamp, which costs more than this preamp. As for esthetics, the front face plates of the TU8600 and TU8500 don't match because the TU8500 was intended for the TU8200 amp. That said, both look OK together on my equipment stand.
Apologies if my post was a little vague. I was comparing the sound, with no preamp, coming from an 8200 and an 8800 from my turntable (using some Denon closed back headphones to compare). Yes, I understand there isn't much power coming from the phono itself, obviously it sounds a million times better coming from the 8500 preamp first. The technical info provided in Ray's post in the thread referred to by Mr. Kung was pretty much the answer I was looking for. Thanks!
The phono preamp doesn't just amplify the cartridge signal, also it substantially equalizes in frequency
the signal, by 40dB (x100) from the bass to the treble. Here is the RIAA equalization curve.
That is only the relative equalization. The midband gain is also substantial, typically 34dB to 40dB, or more.
So the total RIAA phono gain at low frequencies can be 54dB to 60dB (500 times to 1000 times), or more.
the signal, by 40dB (x100) from the bass to the treble. Here is the RIAA equalization curve.
That is only the relative equalization. The midband gain is also substantial, typically 34dB to 40dB, or more.
So the total RIAA phono gain at low frequencies can be 54dB to 60dB (500 times to 1000 times), or more.
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Thank you for the additional information, that makes sense... I definitely noticed a huge difference in how much of the recording I could hear, not just how loud it was when coming from the 8500 preamp
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Hey Ray,
I'm using a Hana EL and just built a TU-8500, as well. Are you using the MC setting or MM with a headamp/SUT? My TU-8500 sounds great through a line input with a NOS DAC, and it sounds good with the Hana through its phono input, as well (both in MC mode and MM mode with a 1:10 SUT) but I have to max out the volume on the TU-8500 to get the same level with the Hana as I do with a DAC through the line stage at like 9:00. The difference in volume has me suspect that something is wrong, so I just wanted to ask what your experience has been.
Thanks!
Dan
Hi Dan: great to hear about your combo. I am using the Hana EL and SUT with the MM section of the TU-8500. I mistakenly used the MC section with the SUT once and while the overall volume didn't increase, the distortion did. The MC phono section of the TU8500 provides 20 dB of gain (as I recall) whereas my SUT provides 18 dB. I do have to increase the volume knob from about 9:30 to 11:30 going from the MC phono input to the MM + SUT combination to get comparable volume level.
I think the MC phono section of the TU8500 is quite good. Maybe a bit smoother with the SUT into the MM phono input section. Can't say its a day and night difference at this point in time.
Cheers,
Ray
I think the MC phono section of the TU8500 is quite good. Maybe a bit smoother with the SUT into the MM phono input section. Can't say its a day and night difference at this point in time.
Cheers,
Ray
Awesome, thanks for the info! Mind sharing what model SUT you're using (or if it's DIY, what transformers themselves)?
Thanks a ton!
Dan
Thanks a ton!
Dan
It was a Lundahl LL1931 SUT kit I bought from Victor. I did a YT video of the assembly and first impressions. Here is the current link: Lundahl MC Phono Step-Up Transformer Kit - DIY Tips & First Impressions - YouTube
I forgot to mention that for my CD player and music streamer/DAC into the TU8500 line inputs, the volume control setting is around 9:30. It feeds the Elekit TU8600 & DIY LS35A clones. Loud enough for me; 15 ohm impedance, 84 dB sensitivity.
I forgot to mention that for my CD player and music streamer/DAC into the TU8500 line inputs, the volume control setting is around 9:30. It feeds the Elekit TU8600 & DIY LS35A clones. Loud enough for me; 15 ohm impedance, 84 dB sensitivity.
Yeah, something in my chain has to be off for me to have to go from ~9:00 on Line 1/2/3 to ~4:00 on Phono to get a similar volume level. Thanks for the info! It'll definitely be helpful in diagnosing whatever's going on with my system. Either way, the TU-8500 is a great preamp, and I'm having a ton of fun listening to it, at least with digital audio for now.
I'll definitely check out that YT video, too.
Cheers!
Dan
I'll definitely check out that YT video, too.
Cheers!
Dan