Hi Newbie here,
I am researching various types of amps/receivers for home audio stereo music and home theater.
What makes a tube amp special? I have read some of these produce 13 watts per channel. I have a Denon receiver from a decade ago and it produces 70 watts x 5 channels at 20 - 20,000 and a .08 THD.
Why are tube amps popular?
What is the difference in sound of a solid state vs tube?
Again, sorry for the newbie question. I am new to the game.
I am researching various types of amps/receivers for home audio stereo music and home theater.
What makes a tube amp special? I have read some of these produce 13 watts per channel. I have a Denon receiver from a decade ago and it produces 70 watts x 5 channels at 20 - 20,000 and a .08 THD.
Why are tube amps popular?
What is the difference in sound of a solid state vs tube?
Again, sorry for the newbie question. I am new to the game.
There are many that produce much less power than that, an some that produce much more.
You'll get many different answers, and they will all be different. For home theatre, I wouldn't bother will tubes unless you're an experienced amp builder.
There's a sticky here if you're interested in learning about tube amps. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/38278-line-tube-learning-newbies.html
jeff
Last edited:
Valve amplifiers tend to be logarithmic in amplitude and suit human ears well, as human ears are also logarithmic. Solid state amplifiers tend to be very clinical, linear , precise and lack harmonics.
It is an old school thing.
It is an old school thing.
That was pretty funny, azazello. I'll take it as one of the casualties of translation! GoatGuy
I guess you're right, although I have to say that the simplification also sounds rather like misinformation at some level: if tube/valve amplifiers were really significantly logarithmic in amplitude, then their distortion figures-of-merit would absolutely preposterous.
Actually, a better way of looking at them (valves) is that they have very soft cutoff compared to solid state, often also have rather low feedback, which decreases strict linearity (thus introducing distortions that are given the creative euphemism, “harmonics”), are subjectively given to be “sweeter tone”, and finally are commonly cited as being “louder, watt-for-watt” than sand-state amps.
Perhaps the best answer for the OP is - valve amplifiers … as a hobby-built device are lovely, visually sexy, retro-techy devices, which when paired with nice moderately damping speakers deliver delicious sound at pleasingly moderate sound levels. They aren't good at causing the local seismic station to have its needles jump, or the neighbors calling the bomb squad at 3 AM. They're grown up, reasonable, and a statement of one's inner values.
But… if one is trying to put together a surround-sound system, I don't know if I personally would go this direction. I would more likely build a valve mid-range stereo amplifier for the main right-and-left front channels, solid-state push-pull analog bi-amped rigs for the back channels and mid channel, and a big fat 2,000 watt Class D amp for the sub-bass channel. Each having optimum influence over the quality of the sound for the intended channel-purpose. But that's me.
In the end, it is about the sound.
And also the visual presentation.
And choosing exceptionally good movies to watch.
GoatGuy
Hollow state amps sound better. Given the more linear nature of tubes, it's a good deal easier to get good sonic performance. Not that solid state has to sound as horrible as it does, but the developers of commercial, solid state, amps weren't taught properly how to design for sonic performance at EE school. Not surprising these days, given the emphasis on digital and switching applications. Good power transistors for audio are becoming as rare as seal feathers. VFETs are unobtainium, and lateral MOSFETs are made by one or two boutique manufacturers.
Solid state designers also do some truly hideous things with their designs, such as using MOSFETs with the complimentary SEPP power stage that was originated for power BJTs. NPN/PNP pairs are a good deal more complimentary than N-Channel/P-Channel MOSFETs, and so that SEPP design doesn't work quite right. Either one or the other, but not both, in the same circuit. This isn't done since no OPT is cheaper than the cheapest OPT. Marketing can convince you that the "MOSFET sound" (a.k.a. distortion) is the latest, greatest thing in the world when it's quite awful. The high frequency garbage MOSFET amps produce can blow tweeters.
Done right (like I do) and solid state can sound almost as good, but you'll have to work at it. You'll need a lot more NFB, and that makes for stability problems, both open loop (since you need that much more open loop gain to support the NFB) and large feedback factors lead to phase and frequency issues.
A bad sounding tube amp is just about as hard as a really top notch sounding transistor amp: both are do-able, but you'll really have to work at it.
So, just to make it certain, we are discussing about a) amplifiers, right? Not b) effect processors?
...Because nature of discussion within this topic quite often seems to imply it's really about option b).
...Because nature of discussion within this topic quite often seems to imply it's really about option b).
Tube audio gear for reproduction occupies a tiny niche in the world of audio.
It is favored by a tiny minority of music listeners.
Tubed audio gear been obsolete for decades due to its low performance, large size, expense, and lack of reliability.
To many people's surprise, this can be enough power for the enjoyment of music.
That is pretty typical,
In general, they are not very popular. Only a tiny percentage of consumers still have tubed audio gear in daily use. It may seem that tubes are more popular than they are, because the proponents of tubes can be very vocal.
SS electronic generally gear has good frequency response, generally plenty of power, reliable long term operation, and low distortion.
Tubed gear can have some of those properties too, but at a cost in price/performance of equipment and cost of maintenance.
All audiophile myths.
Making music to please human ears is something that humans naturally do for themselves.
Our audio gear is not for making music, it is for reproducing music which is a completely different thing.
Usually, people are looking for audio gear that has sound quality that is similar to or recognizable as being like live music. If the audio gear adds audible timbre changes, nonlinear distortion or noise, then this detracts from recognizing recordings as being like live music.
Tubed gear tends to have far more noise, nonlinear and linear distortion then solid state.
A well-designed tube amp will sound virtually the same as a well-designed solid-state amp, as both can accurately reproduce the input signal. People choose them for reasons other than sound quality.
Other tube amps can sound better or worse than SS; it is a matter of taste. People choose them according to taste.
Problems occur when the people in the second camp fondly believe that they are in the first camp.
Other tube amps can sound better or worse than SS; it is a matter of taste. People choose them according to taste.
Problems occur when the people in the second camp fondly believe that they are in the first camp.
To be honest I just build tube amps because I like how they look and I can´t hear any faults with the music I listen (Most of my amps are low watts SE so they obviously fall short with metal at high volumes).
Something no one has yet mentioned is that BY FAR the weakest link in the audio chain are the speakers. It sometimes baffles me how some people will fight over why a SS amp with 0.005% THD sounds better than a tube amp at 0.05% THD when a speaker is orderS of magnitude worse than both in such respect. Seriously, listen to a speaker and then change it for another, once you do so you´ll learn that stressing out over which quality amplifier is best is pointless.
Something no one has yet mentioned is that BY FAR the weakest link in the audio chain are the speakers. It sometimes baffles me how some people will fight over why a SS amp with 0.005% THD sounds better than a tube amp at 0.05% THD when a speaker is orderS of magnitude worse than both in such respect. Seriously, listen to a speaker and then change it for another, once you do so you´ll learn that stressing out over which quality amplifier is best is pointless.
You can think more serious about translating cross vacuum....it's not funny, Goat Guy....
Tube amps, like record players, are being pushed by the audio press because there is no money to made from digital audio or amplifiers on a chip.
Since the distortion we measure for speakers is pretty much meaningless (as is THD) that statement means nothing. ref Geddes & Alex from Raal
Certainly speakers (and mice/phono cartridges) are the furthest from perfection, but good electronics in front of them are very important. Even modest speakers with good amplification will typically outperform a great speaker with poor amplification.
dave
Aren't you the guy saying all amps sound the same?
Tube amps that claim "tube sound" send me running because that usually implies the kind of sound we get from mediocre vintage kit.
Because tubes (triodes) have the most linear amplification curves of any devices (hard to find V-FETs are close), a well done tube amplifier can be one of the best sounding amplifiers available. Since they are typically pricey & tubes do wear out not as popular as SS stuff. A lot of SS stuff is crap. A lot of tube amps are crap too, but being simpler easier to modify (ie Chinese pre-built "kits")
It is also important to consider the speakers they will be used with. Speakers & amp are a system and really need to be considered together.
For HT, one will typically need a SS pre-amp (whether it has amps or not) as getting all the right decoding.
dave
some even tried to copy tube efffect with SS like Hiraga with the Némésis amp (7 W) and certainly some japan guys before him...
We never saw the opposite.... while most of the bad tubes amp sound certainly as bad as the bad 70s transistors amps !
We never saw the opposite.... while most of the bad tubes amp sound certainly as bad as the bad 70s transistors amps !
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.