North Star,
It's not clear to me what direction you are hoping to see this thread take. That -ecdesigns- authored thread mentioned earlier pretty well covers the technology, the construction of a DIY analog linear interpolation DAC, and also the resulting subjective sound and problems. Is there some specific area you wish to see addressed?
It's not clear to me what direction you are hoping to see this thread take. That -ecdesigns- authored thread mentioned earlier pretty well covers the technology, the construction of a DIY analog linear interpolation DAC, and also the resulting subjective sound and problems. Is there some specific area you wish to see addressed?
Yes - they look to be a couple of off-the-shelf SMPSU modules. The mains supply comes in top right and live-neutral are twisted together and run down to the right block, then across the sockets at the bottom of the pic to the left module.
Notice also common-mode choke blocks where the PSU outputs enter the PCB. Bear in mind this pic doesn't appear to be a production unit as there's no USB input apparent.
The location of those two common-mode chokes is one of the puzzles for me in regards to this design. Why did the designer put them on the output of the supplies when from my understanding better filtering efficiency could be gained by putting them on the input (mains) side? On the mains side the currents are lower so a smaller, cheaper choke can be used with no negative side-effects that I'm aware of.
Ken,
If already everything there is to know about the Trinity DAC is known (from 'ecdesigns' thread), then perhaps there are nothing to discuss anymore, nothing new and we can all go to the next subject.
I started this thread because, like I already said, if you have read my first original post, a good friendly member (Richard) here suggested it to me.
Richard is a a true diy guy and he knows a thing or two about DACs and their various implementations.
I figured why not because I can learn from people like him, and also I can share with other members.
Julf, Peter, and now you, you find no direction and nothing of interest because all you're saying is there is no use for.
Now I'm asking you directly: What direction would you like to see, and that would arise your's, Peter's, and Julf's interest?
Perhaps we can go where nobody went before; somewhere deeper into the heart of LIANOTEC? ...Or we could simply leave it here, and discuss something else that nobody ever discussed yet? And it doesn't have to be about Digital Line Level, or the Trinity DAC, or LIANOTEC, or any other known DAC, but about something nobody knows anything yet about?
I'm very open Ken, and I love to work with you guys; as a team.
I'm open to your suggestion, and to Julf and Peter's suggestion as well.
Sincerest regards,
Bob
Thanks Richard. First post in a while where I feel more like home and not pressured. At least you bring something positive and on topic here.
It has been some wondering of mine since I first saw those two rather large encased boxes.
But if there is another thread where they already talked about them two boxes, and where they know exactly what they are; then perhaps we should not be talking about them here?
__________________
<<<>>> I love this site, I never had any issue with no one; everyone is nice.
But since that thing about reverse-engineering, and Julf and Peter and now Ken questioning me and my direction and the why I started this thread; I am feeling that perhaps I should go somewhere else?
Richard, I don't feel that you suggested anything wrong to me; to the contrary, I was real happy to follow suit with your sympathetic suggestion.
___________
I will take some time off for now, and reconsider few things.
Then, when I'm ready, I will return where I, myself, believe is best for everyone.
I thought I was already doing alright, I know I'm doing alright; some don't though. Because it's all deja vu to them.
Ok, I can understand that, no problem. You guys don't want to talk anymore about this subject that you already know all about, so we'll talk about something that nobody knows anything about.
I'll start: What is the true purity of the best DAC design in the world?
This is a simple question, but we can easily write a bunch of encyclopedias about and it will always remain fresh because the year 2014 will bring new designs still, from older and newer technologies in DAC's designs, and still new implementations.
Is there anyone here working on that next "purity" DAC?
A Diamond DAC perhaps?
About a design using the Burr-Brown PCM-1792 DAC? ...Eight of those DACs per channel, twice as many as in the Denon AVP-A1HDCI Surround Sound Processor.
Or what about the latest Krell Evolution 707's digital stage? ...With devastatingly enormous and 'sharp as an arrow' bass.
Or perhaps the Classe CT-SSP's digital line level section?
Or maybe the Bryston SP-3's digital section?
About Audio Research, or Ayre Acoustics, or Mark Levinson, ...
Any thread on the newer dCS Da Vinci four-box system DAC?
And how's the Trinity DAC truly compares to it?
Can we talk about some comparisons? ...From our own perspective?
Or is it best to make other comparisons between DACs ever never compared before anywhere in the whole world?
Should we just talk about DACs we would love to build ourselves (I'm sure there are threads already)?
Should we talk about the best DACs to transfer all your albums (LPs) into computer hi-res music files? ...Seems to be the mode nowadays.
Like I said I'm wide open; I'll talk about anything better audio related. ...Recordings and analog/digital reproduction. From the artist's voice to the microphone and through our gear at home and coming out from our electronical/mechanical loudspeakers and crossovers.
I'll talk about anything Passive and/or Active audiophilia, and all that jazz.
Or would you rather talk about DACs implemented into your AC power chords and/or digital interconnects?
None yet? No problemo we'll start some.
Peter, Ken, Julf, now your turn to say what you want to say.
...And anyone else, you are all free to contribute the way you would love to.
You won't have any desaccord from me. I won't even question your motive or your direction. I'll simply try to advance the subject where no one has dared to go before.
And all for free, no financial goal whatsoever. ..Just pure learning knowledge.
Without discussions how can we learn?
Without questioning how can we get answers?
Without love how can we get rid of wars?
Now your turn; and don't feel slave of your own conventional beliefs, but try to propose newer avenues that you feel would be of interest to you, and without fear. ...Stuff you would like to know more about.
With all my lovin',
Bob
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Bob - what I'm noticing on this thread is there's a lot of chaff. By which I mean distractions from the topic of the thread which is the Trinity DAC. LIANOTEC is but one aspect of the design - there are others which are worthy of attention. For example - what design decisions might lead to the inclusion of two SMPSUs in the case with very little apparent filtering. Or considerations of the noise implications of splitting the DAC boards away from the digital processing board and interconnecting them by ribbon cables.
I'm curious about these decisions which I can't myself see the rationale behind, but I realize a discussion can't take place with only one party. So if no-one else is equally curious I'll go amuse myself elsewhere 😀
Me too Richard; it is different than what we're used to.
Another thing that I'm still quite amazed by, and that I don't want to truly talk about but just make a quick mention, is that by looking inside the Trinity DAC, and knowing the price of certain parts, is the total manufacturer's suggested retail price of the "engine": $52,000-60,000 US. ...Or roughly 40,000 Euros.
That's all.
Now, it would be nice if a member or two here, who are owners of that DAC, could share their listening experience, unique to diyAudio forum.
Adam is a member here and he has one, but Adam doesn't post here (he told me that he kept is registered membership so that he has access to all the pictures and attachments, +++ all that jazz).
Audiocrak, I don't know if he's a member or not (he's also an owner).
Actually I'm not used to seeing any common-mode filtering on the insides of the DACs I've pored over. One exception being the BADA. So this is a step in the right direction but I do have my doubts its a step far enough. Meaning more performance could potentially be gained by paying more attention to filtering noise from these supplies, or by not including switchers at all.
However the customer feedback is what matters and according to a poster over at WBF, the price of at least one dCS Vivaldi stack has plummeted on the used market here in Asia. Which to me is evidence enough of positive customer feedback 🙂
Gotcha, and that was my first original impression too.
I am extremely patient, I let everyone plenty of space to breathe.
And I like to go always ahead of he heap, and over the slowing herd.
The more I see clear the more I know there is nowhere else to go but here.
...Always giving the opportunity to everyone, without any exception, even to the detractors to regain their footstep back on track, and on terra firma.
I expect no less from myself.
Yeah I saw that too. ...And makes me double-think twice too about few things.
...Just like the person who posted it also started to think twice about some financial aspects of high end DACs.
And nowadays you can get DACs for peanuts, like couple hundred bucks, and they resolve some magic sound coming from your PC's (Mac's) hi-rez audio files.
Right and that's for me what makes consideration of a very expensive design like this one interesting. How much of that stratospheric price tag really is necessary expenditure to achieve the pinnacle of SQ and how much is bling to ensure it has credibility (and therefore sells) in today's bifurcated market?
Ok, some stuff in life could be real good, like a woman who loves you for who you are and is a great lover.
...Or an amp, or a speaker, or a DAC, that surpasses everything beyond and behind anything seen and heard before, and that sings perfectly in unison in your own system a la maison. I don't look at stickers in cases like that. That woman for me is worth all the money in the world put all together in a big pile of cash, gold, diamonds, and oil.
The true satisfaction in life has no price.
My question: What more satisfaction can you get from the Trinity DAC over that woman?
...Or an amp, or a speaker, or a DAC, that surpasses everything beyond and behind anything seen and heard before, and that sings perfectly in unison in your own system a la maison. I don't look at stickers in cases like that. That woman for me is worth all the money in the world put all together in a big pile of cash, gold, diamonds, and oil.
The true satisfaction in life has no price.
My question: What more satisfaction can you get from the Trinity DAC over that woman?
Hey Bob,
Aren't you over reacting somewhat about three people not liking your thread ?
I is very hard for me to see how Julf doesn't like it, it is also quite hard for me to see Ken is against it, and me ? I just genuienely asked myself the question and tried to find the answer.
Now don't obfuscate it with all kind of different subjects. But we do need a clear target.
Personally I think it is tough because the subject has been beaten to death elsewhere and no matter the hoopla of today, it just has.
What about focusing on the cost ? (retail price). Not sure what to do with that exactly, but at least it puzzles me.
Heads up man !
Peter
Aren't you over reacting somewhat about three people not liking your thread ?
I is very hard for me to see how Julf doesn't like it, it is also quite hard for me to see Ken is against it, and me ? I just genuienely asked myself the question and tried to find the answer.
Now don't obfuscate it with all kind of different subjects. But we do need a clear target.
Personally I think it is tough because the subject has been beaten to death elsewhere and no matter the hoopla of today, it just has.
What about focusing on the cost ? (retail price). Not sure what to do with that exactly, but at least it puzzles me.
Heads up man !
Peter
Hey Peter, did you read your post's 'rafale' (hail)?
How would you react yourself if someone would burst like in a hail of bullets raining down your guts?
Yes, you took target at me, and not the subject of this thread. Am I wrong or am I right? You tell me because me I'm just digesting what I've been reading.
I already mentioned that we can talk about the unknown if you wish to.
The cost is like any other part of the equation, like the illuminated push buttons on the front face, are you afraid talking about price?
I said to not be afraid and to leave your conventional beliefs where they serve best; under ground.
How would you react yourself if someone would burst like in a hail of bullets raining down your guts?
Yes, you took target at me, and not the subject of this thread. Am I wrong or am I right? You tell me because me I'm just digesting what I've been reading.
I already mentioned that we can talk about the unknown if you wish to.
The cost is like any other part of the equation, like the illuminated push buttons on the front face, are you afraid talking about price?
I said to not be afraid and to leave your conventional beliefs where they serve best; under ground.
Speaking only for myself, I did not intend to give the impression you describe. I just thought that there may have been something in particular which you were enthusiastic to discuss. I've never heard any of the Trinity DACs, and so can't offer a subjective opinion beyond my belief that the technology has intriguing degree of potential.
The main implementation challenges of analog linear interpolation are hardware complexity and clock management. The hardware complexity can be managed by locating the interleaving logic in an FPGA, and the incorporation of 8 or more D/A chips is no longer unusual. It occurs to me the the latest ESS Sabre D/A chips featuring 8 independent D/A units migh be leveraged to provide an elegant alternative to 8 seperate chips. I should think that distributing low jitter, precisely synchronized clocks signals to each D/A unit is proabably the more difficult implementation challenege.
If a high enough oversampling ratio (a minimum of 8x, but 16x would be better) can be achieved, then the in-band response becomes satisfactorily flat, and the ultrasonic image products shift up in frequency by a factor equal to the oversampling ratio. That last aspect is very important, as linear interpolation produces such a slow filter roll off, being the equivalent to a 'moving average' digital filter. The benefit of shifting those image products higher in frequency bia oversampling is that it makes them easier to filter away using a final analog filter stage.
If the design is successful, the undesired ultrasonic image products will be filtered away, and the impulse response will be free of 'ringing' phenomena. However, analog linear interpolation via hardware truly is a brute force approach in terms of cost and complexity. A software based linear interpolation could produce much the same result in conjunction with very high sample rate DAC chips (8x to 16x), the few of which remaining are, as far as I know, fully multibit designs. Commercial sigma-delta converters for audio application all appear to be limited to 4x.
Well, that's about all i know on the subject. Keep having fun. 🙂 Perhaps, drink a few less expressos before posting though. 😀
I can analyse that quote above for the next two years, or be smart and get the idea right away. I chose the later.
Can you blame me for it?
And I am extremely relax and smiling, believe it or not.
...And super happy that you and Peter replied. 🙂
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