Pfew, just looked at your XXHighend website and products and truly impressive as they may be from a technical point of view (they really are)....after reading the 6 Moons story I clicked the close button and thought: if that is the future of playing music I will search me another hobby. It is the exact opposite from just pushing a Play button and listening without spending any thoughts or needing to fiddle around with the gear or checking parameters on a pc screen.
Settings, settings and more settings....
I am getting old.
Settings, settings and more settings....
I am getting old.
Last edited:
Hi Peter,
I read both your posts (#391 and #399) and I can understand them better than the quote above. 😉
- I wouldn't mind at all if you would transcribe both those two posts in their entirety right here; I would even be delighted.
Anyway, we're here to learn so that we can advance in the art of music listening pleasure (on an emotional and sensory level).
Peter, what is exactly "Arc Prediction Filtering"? ...And what Arc stands for? ...Analog reconstructed conversion?
By the way, I invited Adam (Elberoth) to participate in our early stage discussion.
Adam is already a registered member here, just like Peter (PeterSt) who participated earlier (and hope he'll share more because Peter's an expert), and Adam is also an expert; in the art of music listening. ...He has too; he owns a Trinity DAC.
Now, if anyone mentions reverse-engineering, or patent infringement, or spiritual property violation, or lawsuit, or judge or lawyer or attorney, or free-speech right, or any other type of absurd pizzaz; it wouldn't help our common advancement and mutual social benefit in the interest of living in harmony in a better world; the same world we all live in.
Our discussion is about the Trinity DAC, and in particular the benefits of the LIANOTEC DAC implementation. ...Measurably, and audibly.
Adam is already a registered member here, just like Peter (PeterSt) who participated earlier (and hope he'll share more because Peter's an expert), and Adam is also an expert; in the art of music listening. ...He has too; he owns a Trinity DAC.
Now, if anyone mentions reverse-engineering, or patent infringement, or spiritual property violation, or lawsuit, or judge or lawyer or attorney, or free-speech right, or any other type of absurd pizzaz; it wouldn't help our common advancement and mutual social benefit in the interest of living in harmony in a better world; the same world we all live in.
Our discussion is about the Trinity DAC, and in particular the benefits of the LIANOTEC DAC implementation. ...Measurably, and audibly.
I see Adam's latest post and to me it appears he's rather offended by Peter's contributions to the thread. The tone is rather defensive and unnecessarily personal. Adam made at least one incorrect remark about the Phasure and he feels its inappropriate for Peter to respond to that? Gimme a break!
What's even more interesting though in what he writes is that Dietmar is coming under some pressure not to write on forums. First the pressure was fairly gentle - from Adam himself, but now we see Adam reporting that Dietmar's US distributor has gotten involved and asked him not to post on forums any longer. One can imagine that this 'request' might well have more teeth than Adam's 😀 Presumably the distributor feels it can only harm sales for the engineering truth to come out directly from the horse's mouth. If not then why attempt to stifle the design engineer's contributions?
What's even more interesting though in what he writes is that Dietmar is coming under some pressure not to write on forums. First the pressure was fairly gentle - from Adam himself, but now we see Adam reporting that Dietmar's US distributor has gotten involved and asked him not to post on forums any longer. One can imagine that this 'request' might well have more teeth than Adam's 😀 Presumably the distributor feels it can only harm sales for the engineering truth to come out directly from the horse's mouth. If not then why attempt to stifle the design engineer's contributions?
We should have our own discussion here,
but without Dietmar's expertise we are swimming in an ocean of digital/analog assumptions and voluntary/public revealed informations.
I tried to have Dietmar to join us (he is aware of our diy's thread here), Adam too, and even Peter to share some.
Francisco (micro) is wishing for the death of our own thread, and with his wish he might just contributed in small part to kill that WBF's thread.
Like I said, we should develop our own discussion among ourselves; digital audio gear, DACs, and all that digital jazz that is part of our digital passion.
What do you think Richard? ...Reverse engineering? 😉
but without Dietmar's expertise we are swimming in an ocean of digital/analog assumptions and voluntary/public revealed informations.
I tried to have Dietmar to join us (he is aware of our diy's thread here), Adam too, and even Peter to share some.
Francisco (micro) is wishing for the death of our own thread, and with his wish he might just contributed in small part to kill that WBF's thread.
Like I said, we should develop our own discussion among ourselves; digital audio gear, DACs, and all that digital jazz that is part of our digital passion.
What do you think Richard? ...Reverse engineering? 😉
Last edited:
Ken,
- Krell KPS-25s (CD transport - DAC - Class A analog pre-amp): Dual interleaved 20-bit DACs with Pacific Microsonics PMD-100 digital decoder and filter.
I believe that the DACs are Burr-Brown DACs, not 100% sure though. ...MSRP: $22,500 US.
- Krell KPS-25sc (same as above): DACs are now 24/96 - perhaps from Ultra-Analog, not 100% sure.
- Krell KPS-28s (same as above): 24/96 DACs - perhaps from Burr-Brown.
- Krell KPS-20i (CD player): DACs are four Burr-Brown PCM-63.
- Krell KPS-30i (CD player): Same 4 DACs as above.
* Prices (MSRP - USD): From $10,000 to $30,000 (roughly).
____________
<> KPS-20i Review: Krell KPS-20<I>i</I> CD player | Stereophile.com
<><> KPS-25sc Picture:
<<>> Now back to the Trinity DAC (LIANOTEC). 🙂
- Krell KPS-25s (CD transport - DAC - Class A analog pre-amp): Dual interleaved 20-bit DACs with Pacific Microsonics PMD-100 digital decoder and filter.
I believe that the DACs are Burr-Brown DACs, not 100% sure though. ...MSRP: $22,500 US.
- Krell KPS-25sc (same as above): DACs are now 24/96 - perhaps from Ultra-Analog, not 100% sure.
- Krell KPS-28s (same as above): 24/96 DACs - perhaps from Burr-Brown.
- Krell KPS-20i (CD player): DACs are four Burr-Brown PCM-63.
- Krell KPS-30i (CD player): Same 4 DACs as above.
* Prices (MSRP - USD): From $10,000 to $30,000 (roughly).
____________
<> KPS-20i Review: Krell KPS-20<I>i</I> CD player | Stereophile.com
<><> KPS-25sc Picture:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
<<>> Now back to the Trinity DAC (LIANOTEC). 🙂
Last edited:
Test
* Test was successful - You can click on it.
___________________
- I'm working to get a copy of an email sent to Dietmar not too long ago.
Stay tuned, and meanwhile remain happy. 🙂 ...It's just a hobby.
* Test was successful - You can click on it.
___________________
- I'm working to get a copy of an email sent to Dietmar not too long ago.
Stay tuned, and meanwhile remain happy. 🙂 ...It's just a hobby.
Last edited:
This one uses the 4 63's to form a 2 channel differential setup. So no "delaying" possible.
(just browsed to the Stereophile review)
Bob, can you help me out;
Maybe there are more who don't get it quite, but what is the purpose of this thread ?
Ah, ok. But still. Can't you just read ecdesign's thread ? It is a bit long, but you (alll) will surely grasp the idea.
And might you need an opinion ? best is to invite ecdesigns to this thread but otherwise my (genuine) opinion :
Nothing special about it. I could try to repeat what Ken said here : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/249411-trinity-dac-discussion-4.html#post3785575 which of course also is one opinion only but at least I agree with it.
I guess what it comes down to is sorting out the reasons NOT to use that. I think Ken also talked about it, jitter issues and such - which of course Dietmar explains the other way around and which is one of the first reasons I personally don't trust much anymore. Ok I don't trust it. Doesn't tell much. Still, what I look for is all the hoopla about nothing which interests me more than sorting out what it can do. Again, this is known already and when not read ecdesigns' thread.
I'll try some more in a next post.
Peter
Audibly ? nothing.
Measurably ? out of band so callled amplifier harming HF.
I think it is good that we realize that this latter is the ONLY benefit, and if someone disagrees it is a discussion point.
Got that ?
WRONG. How ?
Because it assumes Hires playback. This is explicit but hard to dig out (website).
Redbook is utilized through "normal" reconstruction filtering (fairly low order which is good (ringing isn't too much)) but LIANOTEC now does nothing. Or almost nothing;
HF sh*t won't be there anymore because of the low pass filtering part of the reconstruction filter applied and all what's left is that the brickwall filter can be improved upon (per means of LIANOTEC). So, we started out with 8x upsampling to 352.8 and that leaves at least me with THD+N figures of 0.0018% (thus, 16/44.1). Upsampling this one more time to 705.6 does not bring more of this and otherwise it can't be seen (analyser limits). In my case that includes improvement of the reconstruction but still it does not help THD anymore.
Ok, I am making it confusing already because in my (Phasure NOS1) case there is now low pass filter and you could say "only the LIANOTEC part". Not per means of delaying 1704's but just by upsampling (16x, in good fashion hence not linear and such).
Point is :
Once the HF is out of the way I see no reason to apply any further more brickwall filtering (which "brickwall's stepping" is exactly the part creating the HF sh*t). It is out already. One point of attention : two reconstrucion filters are in there, one with very slow roll of and one with steep roll off. The former might benefit from LIANOTEC again because the slow roll of might be harmful to amplifiers.
Ok, all unclear; it just needs too much explanation. Main point is : it is not needed. But now other things come into play. Next post ...
Q in between : How many amps or tweeters were reported to be fried with NOS/Filterless DACs ?
Notice : Might the answer be "not so many" then I still concur with those who say that no HF sh*t is to be there.
Notice : Might the answer be "not so many" then I still concur with those who say that no HF sh*t is to be there.
Key point on the HF is : We need to look at real DAC output. And not with test signals but through normal music playing;
The in-band high frequency is already so way lower than any harmful energy that it can't come from there.
Again not easy to understand because now I'm talking about the incomplete reconstruction up to even no reconstruction at all (NOS). So, this is about ~4600Hz and up where it really gets noticeable that reconstruction is needed, and what you see from it really is too steep jumps hence too square and now that implying the out of band HF. Above 16KHz this gets really nasty and square like (square = infinite sine frequency) BUT this is something like 40-60dB lower in energy to begin with (compared to the low frequencies) so relatively speaking (and thinking what the amp can bear) it gets harmless because of this (way lower energy).
But this is reconstruction.
The stepping (but squares if all is right though merely transients because only going up and up and up or down and down and down (the brick wall) is just squeezed down by upsampling. The more the better it gets. The more, the more the HF is shifted to the right of the audio band. Do it 8x and you end up with the 3,072MHz of LIANOTEC.
Yes ?
NO. No, because that assumes 384 sampled music signal and it doesn't even exist. 352.8 does (DXD like from 2L) but if we from now on must assume that as the base/standard ... No.
So what's said next is that 16/44.1 is first applied 8x and next a 8x of LIANOTEC follows. So 8x 48 (to stay in the 3,072 realm) = 384. The next 8x gives the 3,072 again.
Yes ?
No again. No, because the first 8x got all the stepping out of the way already (low pass filter).
Now what ? Apply LIANOTEC without any of the reconstruction filter ? Well, if it were possible at all we'd be left with no reconstruction and now it's just NOS though the stepping is 8 times smaller. So, good for up to half of 384 = 192 (above that HF again) but a 20Khz signal at -0dBFS will show up at 48+(48-20) = 76KHz at -3dB.
Bad ?
... This is the difficulty and I say no again because no 20KHz music frequency will show at -0dB. Only test signals do.
But again it is more complicated ... Next post ...
The in-band high frequency is already so way lower than any harmful energy that it can't come from there.
Again not easy to understand because now I'm talking about the incomplete reconstruction up to even no reconstruction at all (NOS). So, this is about ~4600Hz and up where it really gets noticeable that reconstruction is needed, and what you see from it really is too steep jumps hence too square and now that implying the out of band HF. Above 16KHz this gets really nasty and square like (square = infinite sine frequency) BUT this is something like 40-60dB lower in energy to begin with (compared to the low frequencies) so relatively speaking (and thinking what the amp can bear) it gets harmless because of this (way lower energy).
But this is reconstruction.
The stepping (but squares if all is right though merely transients because only going up and up and up or down and down and down (the brick wall) is just squeezed down by upsampling. The more the better it gets. The more, the more the HF is shifted to the right of the audio band. Do it 8x and you end up with the 3,072MHz of LIANOTEC.
Yes ?
NO. No, because that assumes 384 sampled music signal and it doesn't even exist. 352.8 does (DXD like from 2L) but if we from now on must assume that as the base/standard ... No.
So what's said next is that 16/44.1 is first applied 8x and next a 8x of LIANOTEC follows. So 8x 48 (to stay in the 3,072 realm) = 384. The next 8x gives the 3,072 again.
Yes ?
No again. No, because the first 8x got all the stepping out of the way already (low pass filter).
Now what ? Apply LIANOTEC without any of the reconstruction filter ? Well, if it were possible at all we'd be left with no reconstruction and now it's just NOS though the stepping is 8 times smaller. So, good for up to half of 384 = 192 (above that HF again) but a 20Khz signal at -0dBFS will show up at 48+(48-20) = 76KHz at -3dB.
Bad ?
... This is the difficulty and I say no again because no 20KHz music frequency will show at -0dB. Only test signals do.
But again it is more complicated ... Next post ...
It is nice that a 20KHz severely deformed sine gets its HF result out of the way because someone (me) says that it is of very low energy anyway, but this does not mean that we now have a good signal. So, what ever was intended as a sine still is very squary now, and this can't be sounding good (yes, now I assume this is audible, no matter so low in energy). So this NEEDS reconstruction. Ok ...
Aren't we back to square one where I said that once reconstruction has taken place, this DOES come along with upsampling (oversampling) and because of that the stepping is minimzed plus that the filter is a low pass filter and thus ...
What about LIANOTEC ?
And this is how I come to the conclusion that LIANOTEC is only useful when playing Hires (doesn't need reconstruction but still shows stepping) and that it will ...
- not let that sound better (show me THD improvement);
- will be ever so good to amplifiers (or speakers).
I know I am too hard to follow, but LIANOTEC is good to amplifiers and only when Hires material is played.
And *that* assumes that amplifiers can be killed in the first place which might or might not be true.
Peter
Aren't we back to square one where I said that once reconstruction has taken place, this DOES come along with upsampling (oversampling) and because of that the stepping is minimzed plus that the filter is a low pass filter and thus ...
What about LIANOTEC ?
And this is how I come to the conclusion that LIANOTEC is only useful when playing Hires (doesn't need reconstruction but still shows stepping) and that it will ...
- not let that sound better (show me THD improvement);
- will be ever so good to amplifiers (or speakers).
I know I am too hard to follow, but LIANOTEC is good to amplifiers and only when Hires material is played.
And *that* assumes that amplifiers can be killed in the first place which might or might not be true.
Peter
Oh Bob, that's nothing much special;
An arc is part of goniometry (call it how the edge of a circle bends) and Arc Prediction is how it is predicted how the waveshape is going to be with two subsequent samples actually forming s straight straight line, bending that line into how reality would have been when a given number of additional samples would have been in the original sampling (like 15 samples more with 16x upsampling). Piece of sh*tty software. Ok ok ...
Works very well up to 16KHz of frequency with the fairly explicit thought that nobody who can afford the NOS1 DAC won't be able to perceive 16KHz and above of frequency anyway. Looks like strange thinking but it really is part of the (now justified) design.
As you will have seen over at WBF it turns a 1KHz sine carrying 0.024% of THD+N (which would be genuine NOS) into 0.0006% or so and it zereo rings (not pre and not post). So all what "NOS" is meant to be is sustained, but "infinitely" better.
Major point is that it's lossless which means that all interrelated samples remain consistent (and that from the filtered (that's what it is) signal the original can be rebuilt).
The 16x upsampling thus injects 15 new samples which are to be at the proper positions as if the signal was 768K (705.6K) to begin with in the mean time making the stepping 16x smaller.
The latter can be compared to LIANOTEC with the difference that Arc Prediction is not "stupid" linear interpolation to begin with (and all the way through), with the additinonal remark that any linear interpolation as delaying by means of additonional D/A chips is worse than normal linear interpolation. So, the latter takes into account adjacant samples and calculates where the injected sample is going to be, while something like LIANOTEC can only put them right in the middle.
The real difference ?
LIANOTEC can't reconstruct and it thus can only improve on the heightness of the stepping.
Arc Prediction does both.
Also (if not clear yet), Arc Prediction is a most genuine interpolator, while all reconstruction filters are called just that but are not at all. Functionally they may do that, but technically it's just a whole new wave created (your whole music file is recreated - really).
Wasn't that finally easy ?
Peter
PS:
Wow.
Thanks for the explanation, Peter. At least the Lianotec principle is clear to me.😎
I think I'll stick to my simple 24/192K DAC 😀
WoW!
I'm not sure at all where to start! ...And I'm usually the type of person that don't normally face this kind of dilemma.
Yes, we're here to discuss the Trinity DAC (LIANOTEC implementation in particular).
I thought that I made that quite clear already in this thread, title, and even on the first post.
That's ok though because there are days sometimes that I'm wondering what is my purpose on this planet called Earth. ...But it goes away real fast.
Peter, I've read some of your stuff over at Phasure. ...Good technical stuff. 😎
PCM-63, yes, two per channel for a differential balanced mode. ...That was simply in reply to Ken's post. Not much to do with Trinity at all. I'm not anal, never was never will.
What I'm interested most, here, is here. ...And not really over there. ...In the now, for new advancement. But over there can be useful here too, of course.
I'm starving for some' new! Be it music or be it how you reproduce it eloquently.
Right now the Trinity DAC is keeping my interest on high alert.
What can I say, I'm a digital spiritual man inside an analog body.
Yes, I can stick with only movies and music, and simply forget about the entire thing; loudspeakers included.
Thing is this; my brain guides me to some audio frontiers that are of interest to me in the now.
My past audio experience helped too in that regard as I was always been active in my life about everything visual, natural, and auditory.
...Since a very young tender age.
A little tough to put this i perspective because no two people had the same path in life.
And what is 45 years of audio passion for one person represents perhaps only 25 for another person.
Anyway, the now is the thing, and the better the sound the more we want it. Right? 🙂
DAC is the digital line level. ...And we are here in this very diy's forum section.
We ain't talkin' 'bout turntables and all those type of cereals, and what is here could simply cease to exist and we wouldn't even notice it!
...And the same for over there.
Ok, this is very clear now; no question about it, anymore.
One billion years ago there was this, now there is still this and it keeps revolving, but with a new twist; a different place in time and space. It's called dimensional duplication. ...Similar to 3D cloning. ...But with much advanced technologies.
Who knows, one day we'll be able to 3D a DAC, any DAC, Trinity DAC included; just like they duplicate real guns from computers. ...And like if we need more guns!
A Lamborghini; no problemo, we'll put all the coordinates and transactions into our computer and four weeks later bingo, a perfect duplicate!
Music, that is the main essence of our raison d'etre, right here in this forum, and the better it sounds the better it seems we become. ...Internally (soul, mind and spirit).
Externally we can simply take a hike up a mountain and listen to the wind in the tree branches, and the birds, and the water cascading down hill.
We all have something deep and deer to share, and we all have our own way to show for it. That's what's fantastic and marvelous about the human race. Our knowledge is only limited by the unknown; it is beautiful!
How many tweeters (or/and mid drivers) are blown out every day in the world because of faulty DACs? Hey, that's a fair question!
How many Trinity DACs are there in the world today?
And how many people on our planet have listened to one? ...Own one? ...And can reveal the full elemental and intrinsic values, auditory, to other people, without them hearing one for themselves in the circumstances that they are surrounded by?
We are here to explore; we are audio explorers. And DACs are what we explore here, the Trinity DAC, and LIANOTEC technology.
We don't question the reason why some people start something, we explore the content. ...Not the 'introducer', but the introduced subject. That's the real object.
Someone from somewhere said that no diy member here will ever own a Trinity DAC.
Wow, that person simply ignores some fundamental fact of life!
I know few here who can purchase one, who can borrow one, and even have one!
We live in a much more advanced technological world than not too long ago; say fifty years. ...By a huge margin.
Another fifty, and hundred years from now they'll be living even way more technologically advanced than we are now.
And hopefully for the better of humanity and our planet.
I'm not sure at all where to start! ...And I'm usually the type of person that don't normally face this kind of dilemma.
Yes, we're here to discuss the Trinity DAC (LIANOTEC implementation in particular).
I thought that I made that quite clear already in this thread, title, and even on the first post.
That's ok though because there are days sometimes that I'm wondering what is my purpose on this planet called Earth. ...But it goes away real fast.
Peter, I've read some of your stuff over at Phasure. ...Good technical stuff. 😎
PCM-63, yes, two per channel for a differential balanced mode. ...That was simply in reply to Ken's post. Not much to do with Trinity at all. I'm not anal, never was never will.
What I'm interested most, here, is here. ...And not really over there. ...In the now, for new advancement. But over there can be useful here too, of course.
I'm starving for some' new! Be it music or be it how you reproduce it eloquently.
Right now the Trinity DAC is keeping my interest on high alert.
What can I say, I'm a digital spiritual man inside an analog body.
Yes, I can stick with only movies and music, and simply forget about the entire thing; loudspeakers included.
Thing is this; my brain guides me to some audio frontiers that are of interest to me in the now.
My past audio experience helped too in that regard as I was always been active in my life about everything visual, natural, and auditory.
...Since a very young tender age.
A little tough to put this i perspective because no two people had the same path in life.
And what is 45 years of audio passion for one person represents perhaps only 25 for another person.
Anyway, the now is the thing, and the better the sound the more we want it. Right? 🙂
DAC is the digital line level. ...And we are here in this very diy's forum section.
We ain't talkin' 'bout turntables and all those type of cereals, and what is here could simply cease to exist and we wouldn't even notice it!
...And the same for over there.
Ok, this is very clear now; no question about it, anymore.
One billion years ago there was this, now there is still this and it keeps revolving, but with a new twist; a different place in time and space. It's called dimensional duplication. ...Similar to 3D cloning. ...But with much advanced technologies.
Who knows, one day we'll be able to 3D a DAC, any DAC, Trinity DAC included; just like they duplicate real guns from computers. ...And like if we need more guns!
A Lamborghini; no problemo, we'll put all the coordinates and transactions into our computer and four weeks later bingo, a perfect duplicate!
Music, that is the main essence of our raison d'etre, right here in this forum, and the better it sounds the better it seems we become. ...Internally (soul, mind and spirit).
Externally we can simply take a hike up a mountain and listen to the wind in the tree branches, and the birds, and the water cascading down hill.
We all have something deep and deer to share, and we all have our own way to show for it. That's what's fantastic and marvelous about the human race. Our knowledge is only limited by the unknown; it is beautiful!
How many tweeters (or/and mid drivers) are blown out every day in the world because of faulty DACs? Hey, that's a fair question!
How many Trinity DACs are there in the world today?
And how many people on our planet have listened to one? ...Own one? ...And can reveal the full elemental and intrinsic values, auditory, to other people, without them hearing one for themselves in the circumstances that they are surrounded by?
We are here to explore; we are audio explorers. And DACs are what we explore here, the Trinity DAC, and LIANOTEC technology.
We don't question the reason why some people start something, we explore the content. ...Not the 'introducer', but the introduced subject. That's the real object.
Someone from somewhere said that no diy member here will ever own a Trinity DAC.
Wow, that person simply ignores some fundamental fact of life!
I know few here who can purchase one, who can borrow one, and even have one!
We live in a much more advanced technological world than not too long ago; say fifty years. ...By a huge margin.
Another fifty, and hundred years from now they'll be living even way more technologically advanced than we are now.
And hopefully for the better of humanity and our planet.
Last edited:
Language barrier? ...In music there are not too many; spoken/singing words.
Tomorrow, they'll download music in several languages; just like they do with movies.
And forget about CDs, or LPs (not enough grooves to add other languages and subtitles).
USB or HDMI? ...XLR or RCA? ...Alpha or Omega?
Tomorrow, they'll download music in several languages; just like they do with movies.
And forget about CDs, or LPs (not enough grooves to add other languages and subtitles).
USB or HDMI? ...XLR or RCA? ...Alpha or Omega?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.