I still think that it is very odd that I didn't like the Obbs. PIO caps like most others.😕 Perhaps I should shorten the really long leads that they have and/or cut them off near to the body and replace them with shorter but not too short solid silver wire which I happen to have in stock. On the other hand maybe I should try the Obb. copper body film caps 2.2uf. For some reason I didn't really get much separation of the channels with the PIO. It was almost like listening in mono.
I guess it's just one of those things. I really didn't like the same SMPS that Panamaniac had good things to say. It just didn't work for me at all, so I'm replacing some caps to see what will happen with it. Anyway, if you absolutely don't like the Obbligatos, I'll gladly take them off your hands.
rajacat said:
You had mentioned that before. Seems odd. You should look at your wiring.
Maybe the caps you had before were giving you a false sense of separation via strangeness in the phase. If the signal is mono, you should really get mono.(e.g. vocals) Not all systems do that. Often the phase errors can broaden the image - and that sounds "cool." It's not accurate, though.
I'd love to know what about he Obbligatos makes you feel that your signal is more monophonic. I've never had that experience with the Obbs. Knowing what causes it would be very educational.
Summary of the Accumulated Wisdom
I just got a TA-10, and I am impressed by it out of the box. It should be getting more or less broken in now, from what I read here.
I have read through the entire discussion, and there is a lot of useful information. We have some serious experts.
For a reader who did not go through it day by day (and hasn't been involved in at least a little modding), it is somewhat overwhelming. I would appreciate it (and I am sure this would be useful to other readers) if some of the experts would post a summary of what they take to be the accumulated wisdom.
What are the strengths and weaknesses of the TA-10?
What modifications are the most immediately rewarding?
What modifications give you most bang for the buck (in terms of both money and difficulty of the operation)?
What do we know about the power supply? My guess is that it is here that the most obvious and simplest improvements might be made, but that is just a guess. (I became a ham radio operator nearly 50 years at the age of 12, pre-transistor days, and when I got interested in audio in the 1980s I went straight to tubes. I have no experience with solid state audio except some stereo receivers). At any rate, my experience w/ tubes makes me think the ps might be the place to begin with the TA-10.
Swapping capacitors (again in tube gear) is fun, but you A-B until your ears bleed, and at the end of the day, I sometimes don't know whether the expensive cap is an improvement or not. Are there cap (or resistor) changes that make clear and immediate improvements?
I have the pot bypassed.
thanks in advance, djjd
I just got a TA-10, and I am impressed by it out of the box. It should be getting more or less broken in now, from what I read here.
I have read through the entire discussion, and there is a lot of useful information. We have some serious experts.
For a reader who did not go through it day by day (and hasn't been involved in at least a little modding), it is somewhat overwhelming. I would appreciate it (and I am sure this would be useful to other readers) if some of the experts would post a summary of what they take to be the accumulated wisdom.
What are the strengths and weaknesses of the TA-10?
What modifications are the most immediately rewarding?
What modifications give you most bang for the buck (in terms of both money and difficulty of the operation)?
What do we know about the power supply? My guess is that it is here that the most obvious and simplest improvements might be made, but that is just a guess. (I became a ham radio operator nearly 50 years at the age of 12, pre-transistor days, and when I got interested in audio in the 1980s I went straight to tubes. I have no experience with solid state audio except some stereo receivers). At any rate, my experience w/ tubes makes me think the ps might be the place to begin with the TA-10.
Swapping capacitors (again in tube gear) is fun, but you A-B until your ears bleed, and at the end of the day, I sometimes don't know whether the expensive cap is an improvement or not. Are there cap (or resistor) changes that make clear and immediate improvements?
I have the pot bypassed.
thanks in advance, djjd
panomaniac said:
I'm not saying that the Obbligatos are putting out a mono signal but that the sound stage, in my system, shrunk after I installed them replacing the stock caps. I doubt that I miss wired them since it is such a simple installation and when I reinstalled the original caps, the expansive sound stage returned. Furthermore, I have also had a more expansive sound stage with other amps than what I experienced with the Obbs. in the Trends. I have nothing against PIO's and I'm certainly open to ideas on how I could get them to work effectively in my rig. I'm not trying to get a "cool" sound. I just want my system to reproduce as accurately as possible a live performance. The Obbligatos don't have polarity do they?
PIOs
I intend to do an extensive testing of coupling capacitors. I had wanted to have the test completed by now, but I had some technical challenges with my test bed; followed by some time I have had to take off due to some medical challenges.
However, I did get a chance to listen to the Obbligatos Copper (film) and PIOs. In my system they sounded the same. I did not have an opportunity to listen to the films for an extended period of time, but for the few hours I did they sounded the same as the PIOs. Neither of the caps collapsed the sound stage as you describe.
I am somewhat perplexed as to collapsing of the sound stage. The only thing I might suggest is that the caps on both channels be wired identically.
I did have a problem with these caps and shielding. With no signal there was a slight hum. This may have come from the connecting wires as well as the cap casing. Now, whether or not this gets the soundstage to collapse is something I didn't concentrate on, nor did I notice compared to other caps.
Now that I am back on the road to recovery, medically, I intend to solve my technical problem and finish my coupling cap test.
I intend to do an extensive testing of coupling capacitors. I had wanted to have the test completed by now, but I had some technical challenges with my test bed; followed by some time I have had to take off due to some medical challenges.
However, I did get a chance to listen to the Obbligatos Copper (film) and PIOs. In my system they sounded the same. I did not have an opportunity to listen to the films for an extended period of time, but for the few hours I did they sounded the same as the PIOs. Neither of the caps collapsed the sound stage as you describe.
I am somewhat perplexed as to collapsing of the sound stage. The only thing I might suggest is that the caps on both channels be wired identically.
I did have a problem with these caps and shielding. With no signal there was a slight hum. This may have come from the connecting wires as well as the cap casing. Now, whether or not this gets the soundstage to collapse is something I didn't concentrate on, nor did I notice compared to other caps.
Now that I am back on the road to recovery, medically, I intend to solve my technical problem and finish my coupling cap test.
It seems to me that it would be hard to not wire them identically. On the Trends PCB where the input caps go there are a number of holes that you can stick the corresponding leads in. Is it really necessary that the same exact holes be used in the same sequence for each cap despite the fact that the alternative holes perform the same function?
p.s. Glad to hear you are recovering from your medical problems. Will be looking forward to your cap test.
Raj
p.s. Glad to hear you are recovering from your medical problems. Will be looking forward to your cap test.
Raj
rajacat said:
Yeah, that's for sure. Just want to be sure, as I've seen some crazy wiring posted on this forum! 😀
The reason I'm puzzled over your soundstage problem is that the Obbligato PIO had the opposite effect for me, an opening of soundstage and ambiance. And like Dave, I found them very similar to their copper tube brothers.
So who knows? That's what makes this audio game so damn hard. As much as we like to believe there are hard and fast rules, there do not really seem to be any. Just guidelines. If the stock caps work better for you, use them. So much depends on your room, your speakers and your ears.
Davet, glad to hear you're doing better. Hope to hear more of your cap test results soon.
PIO continued
What I meant by wired identically is that the wire that is used for input on the cap should be the same for both caps. i.e. if you use the wire that is leftmost as you like at the cap for the input; the same wire should be used for the input on the other channel.
This would insure that the foils within the caps are coupled to the circuit the same way. This may or may not address your soundstage problem.
I did not mean that you use the same points on the PCB for connection, but what is listed above.
What I meant by wired identically is that the wire that is used for input on the cap should be the same for both caps. i.e. if you use the wire that is leftmost as you like at the cap for the input; the same wire should be used for the input on the other channel.
This would insure that the foils within the caps are coupled to the circuit the same way. This may or may not address your soundstage problem.
I did not mean that you use the same points on the PCB for connection, but what is listed above.
Re: PIO continued
I just used the leads that came with the Obbligatos to connect them to the PCB therefore they are wired identically. Are you saying that even though the Obbs. do not have +/- polarity, their orientation still makes a difference?
Davet said:
I just used the leads that came with the Obbligatos to connect them to the PCB therefore they are wired identically. Are you saying that even though the Obbs. do not have +/- polarity, their orientation still makes a difference?
Hey Panomaniac, how would you characterize the sound difference between the "no input cap" mod on the Charlize and the obbligato caps? I'm thinking of trying out a Charlize 2, but wanted some idea of how this affects the sound. Is it really an improvement, or just something different?
Re: Re: PIO continued
Yes, I am saying that their orientation may make a difference. Normally the wires are connected internal to the cap the same way (one wire goes to the foil). Therefore, try to observe connecting the same wire oriented the same way as input to the circuit of each channel.
For the sake of connecting the caps in the circuit think of them as electrolytics with one wire being positive. In this case you pick which is which for the cap.
Let's say the leftmost wire as you read the lettering on the capacitor is the input lead. This lead would be the wire connected in the circuit nearest the input (RCAs). The other wire (rightmost as you read the lettering on the cap) would be the output lead. Just make sure both channels are connected the same way.
It may make a difference, but it is just a hunch.
rajacat said:
Yes, I am saying that their orientation may make a difference. Normally the wires are connected internal to the cap the same way (one wire goes to the foil). Therefore, try to observe connecting the same wire oriented the same way as input to the circuit of each channel.
For the sake of connecting the caps in the circuit think of them as electrolytics with one wire being positive. In this case you pick which is which for the cap.
Let's say the leftmost wire as you read the lettering on the capacitor is the input lead. This lead would be the wire connected in the circuit nearest the input (RCAs). The other wire (rightmost as you read the lettering on the cap) would be the output lead. Just make sure both channels are connected the same way.
It may make a difference, but it is just a hunch.
Re: Summary of the Accumulated Wisdom
I would say these were the biggest impact for me:
1. Battery Power
2. Swap Input and DC Bias Cap
3. Change 20k ohm resistors
Well, those are the only mods I did so take for what its worth. The good news is that they all had a good effect on the sound.
djjd said:
I would say these were the biggest impact for me:
1. Battery Power
2. Swap Input and DC Bias Cap
3. Change 20k ohm resistors
Well, those are the only mods I did so take for what its worth. The good news is that they all had a good effect on the sound.
TA-10.1 Upgrades
Take a look at Panomaniac' site or the Audio Magus site . Not only are the mods spelled out there are kits available to implement the various mods.
It has been my experience that the most bang for the buck has been with replacing the dc input capacitors. I have tried alternative power supplies, but in my experience the cost to performance ratio yields a low return on investment. The resistor tweak I have not tried so I will not venture to comment.
Take a look at Panomaniac' site or the Audio Magus site . Not only are the mods spelled out there are kits available to implement the various mods.
It has been my experience that the most bang for the buck has been with replacing the dc input capacitors. I have tried alternative power supplies, but in my experience the cost to performance ratio yields a low return on investment. The resistor tweak I have not tried so I will not venture to comment.
I really like the sound I'm getting out of the Obbligato PIO caps for the input and Rubycon ZL (I liked better than Panasonic FM) for the power/tank caps. Along with the rewiring of the input wire, these are definitely the best bang for the buck tweak areas. The power supply would be next; the cheap barebones SMPS units for ~ $10 are great.
The resistors are very expensive and, after trying two different high end resistors, they don't quite offer the bang for the buck. The bias cap and output filter caps alter the sound a little, but nothing to the degree of the tweaks above.
The resistors are very expensive and, after trying two different high end resistors, they don't quite offer the bang for the buck. The bias cap and output filter caps alter the sound a little, but nothing to the degree of the tweaks above.
Re: TA-10.1 Upgrades
Hi,
My stock ps quickly broke, I replaced it with a both a 4.1A smps, and tried a battery I had lying around the garage. They both made a pretty big difference, the battery was a little better. I spent about $10 on 4 2200 uF Electrolytics and 3 180 uF Tantalum caps for the battery and this made further improvements. I'd recommend trying a battery, especially if you have an old car battery lying around.... a 12V power cord is about $2, a fuse and holder about $3. If you like it add some caps for another few bucks.
I'll be trying Jupiter input caps, and wiring the input directly to the cap w/ Jupiter 28g silver wire.... hopefully I'll get around to it in the next week or so. This is costing me a lot more than the power supply mods... ~$60 😱
Dave
Davet said:
Hi,
My stock ps quickly broke, I replaced it with a both a 4.1A smps, and tried a battery I had lying around the garage. They both made a pretty big difference, the battery was a little better. I spent about $10 on 4 2200 uF Electrolytics and 3 180 uF Tantalum caps for the battery and this made further improvements. I'd recommend trying a battery, especially if you have an old car battery lying around.... a 12V power cord is about $2, a fuse and holder about $3. If you like it add some caps for another few bucks.
I'll be trying Jupiter input caps, and wiring the input directly to the cap w/ Jupiter 28g silver wire.... hopefully I'll get around to it in the next week or so. This is costing me a lot more than the power supply mods... ~$60 😱
Dave
Thanks to everyone for good information
You all give me interesting information. My TA-10 should must be broken in by now. I have been running it day and night, and I can only say that it sounds good stock. There are a lot of amps at ten times the price that would not sound this good, though I think it is well-suited to my 93db amp. It is fast, musical, the bass is fairly solid; the mid-range is sweet. There was a little brightness at first but that is taming down.
I was going to buy a 12 v battery and charger for a DAC that blew its power supply, so I think I will order two batteries. I saw them offered somewhere for $10.
There are so problems. After I got my very heavy speaker cables tightened up, the TA-10 would only hang in the air above my 75 pound speaker stand.
Voodoo is a big part of audio. I am sure that beautiful amps sound better to most people than ugly amps. Though, of course, DIY amp builders probably think their ugly productions have an authentic look.
At any rate, it is hard to take an amp that looks somewhat like a small fish caught on a very big line seriously.
again, thanks, djjd
You all give me interesting information. My TA-10 should must be broken in by now. I have been running it day and night, and I can only say that it sounds good stock. There are a lot of amps at ten times the price that would not sound this good, though I think it is well-suited to my 93db amp. It is fast, musical, the bass is fairly solid; the mid-range is sweet. There was a little brightness at first but that is taming down.
I was going to buy a 12 v battery and charger for a DAC that blew its power supply, so I think I will order two batteries. I saw them offered somewhere for $10.
There are so problems. After I got my very heavy speaker cables tightened up, the TA-10 would only hang in the air above my 75 pound speaker stand.
Voodoo is a big part of audio. I am sure that beautiful amps sound better to most people than ugly amps. Though, of course, DIY amp builders probably think their ugly productions have an authentic look.
At any rate, it is hard to take an amp that looks somewhat like a small fish caught on a very big line seriously.
again, thanks, djjd
So, I'm ordering a few more parts (let me know if anyone has better ideas):
Caddock MS223 3W resistors are discounted from $12/ea to $6.95 ea plus a %15 discount right now at pcx:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/resistors.html
...and for the power caps, Blackgate 1000 uF 25V N-series caps, $25 for both. Plus, I'll pick up a 6" x 4" x 2" Hammond aluminum enclosure for $13 to house the caps. I'll bolt it to the Trends instead of re-housing the entire unit, which would mean moving all the in/outs/power switch to a new chassis... sound like too much work to me.
I got the Jupiter caps in, but I'm going to have to hold off on installing them until I get the box from pcx. I'll do the mods one at a time so I can tell what's going on. The Jupiter caps will be first up...
This will make about $120 I've put into the Trends...
Dave
Caddock MS223 3W resistors are discounted from $12/ea to $6.95 ea plus a %15 discount right now at pcx:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/resistors.html
...and for the power caps, Blackgate 1000 uF 25V N-series caps, $25 for both. Plus, I'll pick up a 6" x 4" x 2" Hammond aluminum enclosure for $13 to house the caps. I'll bolt it to the Trends instead of re-housing the entire unit, which would mean moving all the in/outs/power switch to a new chassis... sound like too much work to me.
I got the Jupiter caps in, but I'm going to have to hold off on installing them until I get the box from pcx. I'll do the mods one at a time so I can tell what's going on. The Jupiter caps will be first up...
This will make about $120 I've put into the Trends...
Dave
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