I am interested in doing a DIY turntable. I rather source a tonearm instead of building my own however a lot of the ones I find are really expensive(+$1000).
Does anyone know a good tonearm for under $500 I can use for this project? Will I just have to resort to buying used on eBay?
Does anyone know a good tonearm for under $500 I can use for this project? Will I just have to resort to buying used on eBay?
audio mods Rega arm conversion kits and DIY mods this might meet your budget as there is a DIY part but the easy to mess up bits are done for you.
I cannot comment on sound as never heard one or the logic of drilling it full of holes!
I cannot comment on sound as never heard one or the logic of drilling it full of holes!
The other option is to look at the used market for a manual machine with a nice arm. Possibly a parts machine with a drive problem.
BillWojo
BillWojo
tonearms under $500, con't...
I'd make you one...
One-off custom as you request. See the "Nanook 219" tonearm 🙂 , except noy "one-off", but merely my standard build 12" long tonearm. Do require physical specifications of the cartridge itself for the cartridge mounting plate. Compared to many, bested by few (in my obviously biased opinion). With $500 should be able to do an arm, very respectable cartridge, and a single X's 5 run of tonearm wire to RCA plugs (captive tonearm wire) with ground wire.
So the arm would be $300, you supply the cartridge, and any physical dimensions I require. (sorry for pandering).
No word of a lie, I'll guarantee it. Now of course there are other good arms out there as suggested, the Rega RB25X and RB 30X come to mind, but not too many more if wanting something that is very good. Other than that used would be the way to go, but you should ensure that your chosen cartridge is suitable for the arm (or visa-versa, whichever comes first).
I'd make you one...
One-off custom as you request. See the "Nanook 219" tonearm 🙂 , except noy "one-off", but merely my standard build 12" long tonearm. Do require physical specifications of the cartridge itself for the cartridge mounting plate. Compared to many, bested by few (in my obviously biased opinion). With $500 should be able to do an arm, very respectable cartridge, and a single X's 5 run of tonearm wire to RCA plugs (captive tonearm wire) with ground wire.
So the arm would be $300, you supply the cartridge, and any physical dimensions I require. (sorry for pandering).
No word of a lie, I'll guarantee it. Now of course there are other good arms out there as suggested, the Rega RB25X and RB 30X come to mind, but not too many more if wanting something that is very good. Other than that used would be the way to go, but you should ensure that your chosen cartridge is suitable for the arm (or visa-versa, whichever comes first).
Hi,
there are many well designed arms on 70s-90s decks.
Just because nobody talks about those, doesn't mean that the arms on those decks are inferior to standalone arms.
Do all those guys err who buy, clean, repair and pimp vintage Technics, Duals, Sony, Thorens etc. decks and are perfectly happy with them?
I don't think so.
Maybe only a little tuning and tweaking is all that is needed to create Your Tyrannosaurus HiFi from sich a underdog arm?
See for example the well known Technics S-shaped Arm and compare it to the Funk Firm Arm, or my TheKiller project.
Funk mainly replaced the ringing arm tube by a stiffer dampened straight tube.
And maybe one needs to design a new antiskating mechanism or a new arm lifter or a new stand to make the donor arm a practical solution.
But that's at least cheaper than to buy a mediocre 'new' arm for 500 bucks or to built a complete new arm from scratch.
Just find a vintage deck where the arm basics are done well (bearing design, geometry, metal parts or plastics).
The Technics Gimbal bearing I reused in TheKiller project allows for 160 vertical oscillations.
I have the Rega 300 and the Akito1 also, both utilizing similar cheap ball bearing bearings which hardly manage 20 oscillations.
Now is there a true reasoning to believe that Regas and Linns are still though the 'better' Arms, when they already fail on such a prominent parameter?
Having taken both arms apart, seen their detail execution and tolerances, I can honestly say no.
Just dare to be bold and do it Your own way 😉
jauu
Calvin
there are many well designed arms on 70s-90s decks.
Just because nobody talks about those, doesn't mean that the arms on those decks are inferior to standalone arms.
Do all those guys err who buy, clean, repair and pimp vintage Technics, Duals, Sony, Thorens etc. decks and are perfectly happy with them?
I don't think so.
Maybe only a little tuning and tweaking is all that is needed to create Your Tyrannosaurus HiFi from sich a underdog arm?
See for example the well known Technics S-shaped Arm and compare it to the Funk Firm Arm, or my TheKiller project.
Funk mainly replaced the ringing arm tube by a stiffer dampened straight tube.
And maybe one needs to design a new antiskating mechanism or a new arm lifter or a new stand to make the donor arm a practical solution.
But that's at least cheaper than to buy a mediocre 'new' arm for 500 bucks or to built a complete new arm from scratch.
Just find a vintage deck where the arm basics are done well (bearing design, geometry, metal parts or plastics).
The Technics Gimbal bearing I reused in TheKiller project allows for 160 vertical oscillations.
I have the Rega 300 and the Akito1 also, both utilizing similar cheap ball bearing bearings which hardly manage 20 oscillations.
Now is there a true reasoning to believe that Regas and Linns are still though the 'better' Arms, when they already fail on such a prominent parameter?
Having taken both arms apart, seen their detail execution and tolerances, I can honestly say no.
Just dare to be bold and do it Your own way 😉
jauu
Calvin
What does '160 vertical oscillations' mean?
There are also a lot of crappy arms used by technics. My motor donor has one of the cheap auto return arms sitting on a moulded plastic base. I can't see that being turned into a killer! It does have a gimbal bearing, but it looks to be plastic rather than metal. Will go check when I get a minute.
I agree if you have the knowledge, and a mate who can design and mill things for you then you can do amazing things. But for a first TT project?
There are also a lot of crappy arms used by technics. My motor donor has one of the cheap auto return arms sitting on a moulded plastic base. I can't see that being turned into a killer! It does have a gimbal bearing, but it looks to be plastic rather than metal. Will go check when I get a minute.
I agree if you have the knowledge, and a mate who can design and mill things for you then you can do amazing things. But for a first TT project?
Plugging away (again, but no pandering 😉 )
Guys,
Calvin: your "The Killer 12" tonearm is a wonderful and I would attempt what you had done if I had the means (financially and resource wise) to do so. I simply found it much easier to start fresh and not worry too much about some of the niceties. And if the geometry is correct then little or none anti-skating is required. I agree there are some great arms that have come on a few retail turntables stock and they would be a pretty good place to start. But I'd put my 219 against my AME 309 (magnesium) tonearm any day. But I have and the 219 is not lacking.
cspirou: some other arms that might be worthy of consideration:
And of course if you already have some sort of donor tonearm from a manual table, that would be good too. Often it's a shame to take an arm off a decent working turntable, say a Yamaha YP-4 or better.
Just remember that at some point all arms have their limitations, and many have idiosyncrasies requiring particular cartridges to sound their best. Still unsure of the best way to look at the arm/cartridge system other than to suggest as Linn does: table,arm cartridge hierarchy.
In regards to what Calvin has said that several, apparently high-end arms seem to be rather mediocre regarding bearings, etc., I must agree as well. You may have to consider the cost and technical capabilities in changing the arm's bearings to a better specification.
There are simply so many choices out there., even (perhaps) an old SME 🙂
Guys,
Calvin: your "The Killer 12" tonearm is a wonderful and I would attempt what you had done if I had the means (financially and resource wise) to do so. I simply found it much easier to start fresh and not worry too much about some of the niceties. And if the geometry is correct then little or none anti-skating is required. I agree there are some great arms that have come on a few retail turntables stock and they would be a pretty good place to start. But I'd put my 219 against my AME 309 (magnesium) tonearm any day. But I have and the 219 is not lacking.
cspirou: some other arms that might be worthy of consideration:
- Premiere MMT, I had one and it was very good. The RB300 became the darling of the 1980's and 1990's but the MMT was nothing to sneeze at
- Premier FT3, a straight arm version of the MMT, with the ability to adjust VTA on the fly, usually came with a PIB (Phono Interface Box)
- Audioquest PT series tonearms (the PT9 was top of the range), never seen one but reputedly good. Main differences are in the quality of the tonearm and phono cables. These are unipivots
- Alphason HR100, Xenon arms. I owned a Xenon for a little while and it was most excellent. It was mounted on a Heybrook TT2, which I still regret selling to this day
- Fidelity Research. Not cheap even today. Maxes out your budget completely.
- MØRCH. A friend has something similar and it is quite good. Be careful about cartridge compliance. IIRC all are unipivots
And of course if you already have some sort of donor tonearm from a manual table, that would be good too. Often it's a shame to take an arm off a decent working turntable, say a Yamaha YP-4 or better.
Just remember that at some point all arms have their limitations, and many have idiosyncrasies requiring particular cartridges to sound their best. Still unsure of the best way to look at the arm/cartridge system other than to suggest as Linn does: table,arm cartridge hierarchy.
In regards to what Calvin has said that several, apparently high-end arms seem to be rather mediocre regarding bearings, etc., I must agree as well. You may have to consider the cost and technical capabilities in changing the arm's bearings to a better specification.
There are simply so many choices out there., even (perhaps) an old SME 🙂
Thanks for the feedback everyone. All are really good suggestions. Although Calvin has swayed me into buying and older table and restoring/modding it to get some good performance.
@rayma-I was thinking of cartridges firmly in the middle range. Something from either audiotechnica or orthofon. I didn't know different cartridges required a different tonearm.
@rayma-I was thinking of cartridges firmly in the middle range. Something from either audiotechnica or orthofon. I didn't know different cartridges required a different tonearm.
a good suggestion...
cspirou : Cartridges can require a different tonearm. It is in regard to the resonant frequency of the arm and cartridge combined as a system, based on the mass of the system and the compliance of the cartridge. There are several calculators out there. Most suggest a resonant frequency centred around 7Hz-8Hz.
calvin's suggestion is a good one. A respectable used table can be had a pretty reasonable price. I have made two compelling purchases to this point:
Just be patient and have your money set aside so that you can take advantage of any screaming deals you may come across.
cspirou : Cartridges can require a different tonearm. It is in regard to the resonant frequency of the arm and cartridge combined as a system, based on the mass of the system and the compliance of the cartridge. There are several calculators out there. Most suggest a resonant frequency centred around 7Hz-8Hz.
calvin's suggestion is a good one. A respectable used table can be had a pretty reasonable price. I have made two compelling purchases to this point:
- Roksan Xerxes (original version), with class A power supply for CAD $150. It required a little bit of tweaking but a Xerxes for $150? A no-brainer. Added a hotrodded Rega RB250 (rewired with silver coated copper/teflon tonearm wire, reasonable quality RCA plugs and a JA Michele "tecno-weight".
- A STD 305S, I have a Linn Akito MKII for it (same geometry as a Rega, although a slightly larger whole is required on the arm board). CAD $50. It does require a bit more tweaking , particularly as it is a table intended to run on 50Hz, so a power supply is required.
Just be patient and have your money set aside so that you can take advantage of any screaming deals you may come across.
Hi,
hey guys this isn't a race game!
Its about to show or offer the TS ways, options and possibilities.
I don't know about what tools the TS can use, or what his manufacturing possibilities are, nor how much effort he is willing to invest.
Using a donor turntable a wide range of options opens up, from simple cleaning/servicing, over reusing subassemblies to reusing single parts.
See, the TheKiller was actually never intended to be that complex, because I don't have access to the required tools.
I rather intended to reuse all but the arm tube from the donor arm.
But then a aquaintance I learned to know through an audio forum and whom I helped with his phono stage offered his help.
Another friend got me the carbon arrow for the arm tube.
Then the initial idea evolved into a 12" arm (requiring only 17° offset angle instead of the original 23°) and so one bit added to the next ... features were added .... and it finally ended in an arm of a built quality and feature list I hadn't dreamt of in the beginning.
Financially there were the 15€ for the donor table and 25€ for the arm lift, a sum I just could afford. 😉
All else came without a price tag so far.
What the TS decides for -wether buying a commercial arm, taking Nanook's offer, or building something by himself- is just up to him.
jauu
Calvin
ps. billshurv: 160 oscillations means the number of vertical swings it took the arm to come to rest after release from maximum vertical excursion (ca. +-2cm at the needle point) from equilibrum.
It just prooves the excellence of the gimbal bearing Technics used and that the Technics specification of 7mg of static friction appears believable.
hey guys this isn't a race game!
Its about to show or offer the TS ways, options and possibilities.
I don't know about what tools the TS can use, or what his manufacturing possibilities are, nor how much effort he is willing to invest.
Using a donor turntable a wide range of options opens up, from simple cleaning/servicing, over reusing subassemblies to reusing single parts.
See, the TheKiller was actually never intended to be that complex, because I don't have access to the required tools.
I rather intended to reuse all but the arm tube from the donor arm.
But then a aquaintance I learned to know through an audio forum and whom I helped with his phono stage offered his help.
Another friend got me the carbon arrow for the arm tube.
Then the initial idea evolved into a 12" arm (requiring only 17° offset angle instead of the original 23°) and so one bit added to the next ... features were added .... and it finally ended in an arm of a built quality and feature list I hadn't dreamt of in the beginning.
Financially there were the 15€ for the donor table and 25€ for the arm lift, a sum I just could afford. 😉
All else came without a price tag so far.
What the TS decides for -wether buying a commercial arm, taking Nanook's offer, or building something by himself- is just up to him.
jauu
Calvin
ps. billshurv: 160 oscillations means the number of vertical swings it took the arm to come to rest after release from maximum vertical excursion (ca. +-2cm at the needle point) from equilibrum.
It just prooves the excellence of the gimbal bearing Technics used and that the Technics specification of 7mg of static friction appears believable.
@nanook: Very lucky to get a xerxes that cheap. If you find another let me know! I've had mine for 25 years now and still very happy with it.
@Calvin: So you admit you got about €400 of design an milling for free? I am sure if your friend will do more runs that will fit the technics gimbal for a good price many will buy, as we don't all have favours to call in.
ref the 160 oscillations I have no idea how that relates to any sort of quality metric for a tonearm. Anything with any form of damping will do only a few oscillations. Does that make all damped tonearms worse than yours?
ref the 160 oscillations I have no idea how that relates to any sort of quality metric for a tonearm. Anything with any form of damping will do only a few oscillations. Does that make all damped tonearms worse than yours?
a Xerxes for that little....
bill: Yes it was a windfall. I ended up giving it to a very generous friend who has done much for me over the years. I just wished I had the opportunity to hear it in my system before he moved away...
guys: great deals can be had if patient enough. Pick a price point that you can afford, set the money aside and look to see if a good tabs can be had for that amount. Don't wait for a "once in a lifetime" deal, because that's exactly when you won't find one. Keep an open mind (whether belt, DD or idler drive) because there are good examples of each often available for not much money. Try to do a little research regarding decent affordable tables on ebay or kijiji or audio sales sites (e.g.: www,canuckaudiomart.com here in Canada) and try to get a sense of what tables cost. I think often folks on these sites think their stuff is worth a lot more than than what it usually is. Most selling/buying/auction sites allow you to do a search of sold items, so you can actually seem what an item has sold for in the past.
bill: Yes it was a windfall. I ended up giving it to a very generous friend who has done much for me over the years. I just wished I had the opportunity to hear it in my system before he moved away...
guys: great deals can be had if patient enough. Pick a price point that you can afford, set the money aside and look to see if a good tabs can be had for that amount. Don't wait for a "once in a lifetime" deal, because that's exactly when you won't find one. Keep an open mind (whether belt, DD or idler drive) because there are good examples of each often available for not much money. Try to do a little research regarding decent affordable tables on ebay or kijiji or audio sales sites (e.g.: www,canuckaudiomart.com here in Canada) and try to get a sense of what tables cost. I think often folks on these sites think their stuff is worth a lot more than than what it usually is. Most selling/buying/auction sites allow you to do a search of sold items, so you can actually seem what an item has sold for in the past.
I would love a second xerxes to try modding but want to keep mine stock as a reference.
For my 'project' TT I have a motor, I have a starter plinth and I have at least the top layer of the plinth. Arm is my achilles heel as I was never good at precision stuff.
Having looked at the SL-Q33 donor just now it looks identical to the pictures on Calvin's site, which would indicate that only the bearing holders are re-usable. Shame that the gimbals themselves are not suitable for reuse, or maybe they just need to be tried?
For my 'project' TT I have a motor, I have a starter plinth and I have at least the top layer of the plinth. Arm is my achilles heel as I was never good at precision stuff.
Having looked at the SL-Q33 donor just now it looks identical to the pictures on Calvin's site, which would indicate that only the bearing holders are re-usable. Shame that the gimbals themselves are not suitable for reuse, or maybe they just need to be tried?
Higher compliance cartridges would not work so well in a heavier arm intended for
lower compliance cartridges (and vice versa).
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/tonearmcartridge.html
http://ortofon.com/hifi/support/cartridge-tonearm-resonance-frequency
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Hi,
Bill, without my lawyer I don't admit anything 😛
I don't understand the purpose of Your thread.
Ideas and concepts are offered free here.
Anyone interested in these concepts and ideas is free to decide how much he can do by himself and how much he likes or needs to source externally.
I can't and I won't put a price tag on that. Why do You?
jauu
Calvin
Bill, without my lawyer I don't admit anything 😛
I don't understand the purpose of Your thread.
Ideas and concepts are offered free here.
Anyone interested in these concepts and ideas is free to decide how much he can do by himself and how much he likes or needs to source externally.
I can't and I won't put a price tag on that. Why do You?
jauu
Calvin
My thread? You mean my posts?
My reason is to get enhanced understanding on how someone could replicate your tonearm. the thread is about $500 tonearms, and having re-read the english version of your killer description, I cannot see how anyone without either a mill of their own already paid for or the same mates as you could do it for that. I was hoping you might release the CAD data so others could replicate what you have trail blazed. The designs are done so the time has been spent?
I am also confused as it appears that all you reused was the bearings themselves. Everything else was machined from solid bar the wand. Is this the case?
I think what you have done is great, but you have not left enough information for anyone without a machine shop and solidworks to replicate!
My reason is to get enhanced understanding on how someone could replicate your tonearm. the thread is about $500 tonearms, and having re-read the english version of your killer description, I cannot see how anyone without either a mill of their own already paid for or the same mates as you could do it for that. I was hoping you might release the CAD data so others could replicate what you have trail blazed. The designs are done so the time has been spent?
I am also confused as it appears that all you reused was the bearings themselves. Everything else was machined from solid bar the wand. Is this the case?
I think what you have done is great, but you have not left enough information for anyone without a machine shop and solidworks to replicate!
I bought this tonearm for my Systemdek and like it.
Budget Tonearm with amazing level of performance
Budget Tonearm with amazing level of performance
Hi, I have two of the Origin Live arms and both are well made and work perfectly. Better yet nearly 8 months after I got the second one (and probably because of the gentle handling of the international post offices) I had a loose bearing keeper in the main vertical shaft that didn't surface until I turned it upside down. I sent it back to OL and they fixed it, rewired (because it might have chafed the wires) it and sent it back for no charge. My only cost was one way postage to them. You don't find that sort of customer support every day.
Be aware though that the arm is longer than many and is too long for some turntable mounting holes/bases. It is the same length as most Regas though.
Be aware though that the arm is longer than many and is too long for some turntable mounting holes/bases. It is the same length as most Regas though.
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