In retrospect, this query may sound like that of a troll...but maybe some good will come out of any discussion.
I just built my first pairs (2 designs) of speakers. I did the best I could with unit conversions and best substituted materials. I also hired out the designs to be made exactly as specified, for 4 pair total. After listening to each of the end products, I can't really hear any difference ('though the difference is quite visible).
So, I'd like to ask those who have heard experimental designs and drivers placed in cabinets originally made for other T/S drivers, what they think the tolerance of a particular speaker design specification is.
I was pretty careful. My build was probably within a few percent of the calculated design. If that's good enough, then DIY speaker building is well within reach of even the novice, and some of the very specific suggestions on this board should indicate that "hey, this is me just trying to be perfect..." Otherwise, maybe I need to focus more on my source, my room, or get better drivers before trying to perfect woodwork.
I just built my first pairs (2 designs) of speakers. I did the best I could with unit conversions and best substituted materials. I also hired out the designs to be made exactly as specified, for 4 pair total. After listening to each of the end products, I can't really hear any difference ('though the difference is quite visible).
So, I'd like to ask those who have heard experimental designs and drivers placed in cabinets originally made for other T/S drivers, what they think the tolerance of a particular speaker design specification is.
I was pretty careful. My build was probably within a few percent of the calculated design. If that's good enough, then DIY speaker building is well within reach of even the novice, and some of the very specific suggestions on this board should indicate that "hey, this is me just trying to be perfect..." Otherwise, maybe I need to focus more on my source, my room, or get better drivers before trying to perfect woodwork.
Hi jonedd,
What do you mean that you can't hear any difference? Between what? Most designs are not that tolerant -- you get okay results initially but over time, the deficiencies become more obvious.
What do you mean that you can't hear any difference? Between what? Most designs are not that tolerant -- you get okay results initially but over time, the deficiencies become more obvious.
I'm not sure I fully understand the question, but in general this isn't a "few percent" business. IMHO, it's desirable for channels to match to that level, but we're working with parameters that simply aren't known to that level, or even if measured with extreme care, aren't that stable over time and with varying power levels. As far as woodworking, if you can hit 1/16" tolerances of panel dimensions, that seems plenty close enough. What's more important is the shape of the box.
CH
CH
Sorry for the unclear question. I definitely can hear a difference between the two different box designs. I was just in the midst of trying to cut wood for a new project. I was spending an awful lot of time trying to get the dimensions exact due to unit conversion from metric to English units, and trying to predict movements due to glue etc... I just started thinking that I was being too anal retentive for what was needed. Obviously blemishes would be visible, but for a prototype, I just wanted to see if others thought minor errors would audibly change the sound enough to turn one off of a particular design.
It also occurred to me that maybe my middle-Fi electronics were just making subtle differences harder to perceive. I don't have a lot to compare to, so I don't know.
I should probably have just let the idea drop, but I'm always thinking that I could have done things better.
It also occurred to me that maybe my middle-Fi electronics were just making subtle differences harder to perceive. I don't have a lot to compare to, so I don't know.
I should probably have just let the idea drop, but I'm always thinking that I could have done things better.
Hi Jonedd
Stick in there this is the first set's of speakers you have built. Stick at it and over time and with help from the members of this forum you will gain knolage and expirience. If that is what you want to do of course .
Best Regards Mad Mark
Stick in there this is the first set's of speakers you have built. Stick at it and over time and with help from the members of this forum you will gain knolage and expirience. If that is what you want to do of course .
Best Regards Mad Mark
I'm not getting discouraged--I'm actually having a lot of fun just playing around. I'm just trying to temper my compulsion to compete with computer controlled machinery.
I promised my wife I wouldn't bring anything shabby looking into the house, so until I can veneer well I'm doomed to lose to the cabinetmaker. I'd like to say at least my work sounds as good...if I can keep myself from getting too much testing equipment.
I promised my wife I wouldn't bring anything shabby looking into the house, so until I can veneer well I'm doomed to lose to the cabinetmaker. I'd like to say at least my work sounds as good...if I can keep myself from getting too much testing equipment.
How well a design tolerates changes in T/S parameters depends on the design. I tend towards making my designs fairly tolerant, since drivers of the same type can have quite a spread (+/- 20% on some is not unusual), and then there is the situation that an individual drivers parameters change depending on the drive. Not only where you have the volume set, but also, with the dynamics of the music.
dave
dave
Sometimes I can be a bit silly. I actually adjusted one of your (P10) designs' vent widths, because 1/4" spacers are a bit thinner than the 7mm you specify...only to find after the glue was added it would have been nearly perfect. Then when I put the box together I found gaps and proud ends and all that stuff one would expect on a first project, which made me feel terrible about the build quality. In the end, they sound OK, so I'm going to move on building my little speaker army.
Hear differences? Speakers next to one another? Blind test? Microphone? Same feed?
Move your speakers (or your head) a few inches and the sound changes.
Repeat any listening test with the identical set-up and your "impressions" change.
So first, make sure you are measuring/listening correctly. Piece of cake, if you understand the challenges. And you don't need a lab.
Footnote: here's a pretty good test for matching - listen to the speakers kind of like headphones at 18 inches from each ear. Localizations shifting?
Move your speakers (or your head) a few inches and the sound changes.
Repeat any listening test with the identical set-up and your "impressions" change.
So first, make sure you are measuring/listening correctly. Piece of cake, if you understand the challenges. And you don't need a lab.
Footnote: here's a pretty good test for matching - listen to the speakers kind of like headphones at 18 inches from each ear. Localizations shifting?
Last edited:
About the finish: Just wrap them in felt. Buy some spray-on glue or put a very thin layer on with a brush and wrap the felt around the cap before you put in the drivers. There are various ways to finish the top, but that's the tricky part. You can use a back-painted glass plate as the easy option, or you can make diagonal triangles that you felt together after gluing.
Why felt? In no particular order: 1. Because you don't need to use 80% of your building time to sand off and finish the cap to super anal degrees before painting. 2. It improves the sound. It attenuates vibrations and surface waves. 3. It's a very resistant finish. It won't get scratches or get nicked easily. If you should get a tear or a small slit it's easy to felt over by using a small piece of spare felt and a bit of soapy water to re-full the felt. 4. It looks damn good. Find a nice colour of real sheep wool felt and you get a speaker that really feels much more like a piece of furniture and blends with a normal living room.
Why felt? In no particular order: 1. Because you don't need to use 80% of your building time to sand off and finish the cap to super anal degrees before painting. 2. It improves the sound. It attenuates vibrations and surface waves. 3. It's a very resistant finish. It won't get scratches or get nicked easily. If you should get a tear or a small slit it's easy to felt over by using a small piece of spare felt and a bit of soapy water to re-full the felt. 4. It looks damn good. Find a nice colour of real sheep wool felt and you get a speaker that really feels much more like a piece of furniture and blends with a normal living room.
This is the rule I build my speakers after. Close enough is good enough, I build for my own fun.
I also think it's important to find a driver(s) with a sound you like and then try to build the best box for it.
As for the finish I have used wallpaper, the one on my Needels are pretty thick and stiff perfect for covering small errors.
As a bonus they are also allowed to be inside the house... 😀
Be proud of what you build and always enjoy the work, I think DIY is all about having fun and giving you a "Feel good" feeling.
//Mårten
Attachments
Interesting finishing ideas. I hadn't really considered anything other than veneer or paint. To you have any pictures of that felt application? Some weird images come to my head which probably aren’t accurate.
@Bentoronto--Re your suggested test for matching--I will try that to see what I find, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with the information.
@Bentoronto--Re your suggested test for matching--I will try that to see what I find, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with the information.
Well it pretty standard fare with PA speakers. But that's not done for cosmetic reasons, or at least not the cosmetics we are talking about. But same principle. You are just free to choose another colour than charcoal or grey.
And I don't have any pics of my setup at hand here. But they are deep brown. Might not sound like a good colour for a speaker, but it has more finesse than pure black, is not as dull and cold as grey and otherwise it does the same slimming act as real black, making the speaker seem smaller and stand less out. The same goes for the lack of highlights, in low lighting it seems almost as if the speaker absorbs light because of the diffuse texture.
The application is real simple in principle. Just make sure you have exactly enough felt to wrap around the speaker, and make sure that what sticks out in either end is long enough for whatever finishing wrap you've planned.
Apply the glue one panel at a time, while you roll the speaker into the felt on a flat floor. One thing is very important: DON'T pull the felt at all. felt is very willing to distort and get pulled out of shape. Small uneven tugs will build up around the diameter of the speaker. Instead let the glue smeared side of the speaker "fall" onto an already straightened out patch of felt.
When all the way around, cut the felt to match the first felt you put on. When the glue is dry full or felt (don't know the correct term here) to make the seam invisible.
Remember don't use more glue than absolutely necessary, otherwise it will seep through.
The top can either be finished by putting the remaining felt inside the box and stapling and glueing, and then put a separate top plate on, either with felt, glass or wood etc. Or you can do four folding triangles that match in a diagonal cross and then felt the seam over.
I choose the first option (the separately felted plate) as that seemed easier and I guessed would look better. The bottom of the speaker is obviously not as critical, but the same applies there.
And I don't have any pics of my setup at hand here. But they are deep brown. Might not sound like a good colour for a speaker, but it has more finesse than pure black, is not as dull and cold as grey and otherwise it does the same slimming act as real black, making the speaker seem smaller and stand less out. The same goes for the lack of highlights, in low lighting it seems almost as if the speaker absorbs light because of the diffuse texture.
The application is real simple in principle. Just make sure you have exactly enough felt to wrap around the speaker, and make sure that what sticks out in either end is long enough for whatever finishing wrap you've planned.
Apply the glue one panel at a time, while you roll the speaker into the felt on a flat floor. One thing is very important: DON'T pull the felt at all. felt is very willing to distort and get pulled out of shape. Small uneven tugs will build up around the diameter of the speaker. Instead let the glue smeared side of the speaker "fall" onto an already straightened out patch of felt.
When all the way around, cut the felt to match the first felt you put on. When the glue is dry full or felt (don't know the correct term here) to make the seam invisible.
Remember don't use more glue than absolutely necessary, otherwise it will seep through.
The top can either be finished by putting the remaining felt inside the box and stapling and glueing, and then put a separate top plate on, either with felt, glass or wood etc. Or you can do four folding triangles that match in a diagonal cross and then felt the seam over.
I choose the first option (the separately felted plate) as that seemed easier and I guessed would look better. The bottom of the speaker is obviously not as critical, but the same applies there.
Last edited:
If you have no doubts about the soundness of your observations leading to the conclusion that your speakers unacceptably differ (your method(s) of observation are not described), then you do not need to listen to them "blind" and using other experimentally-sound methods of observation. My earlier point is that that is a big "if" unless your testing was controlled.
But if you are asking, "What can I adjust to make the the speakers the same?" then you need information more diagnostic than listening tests can provide*. From that basis, a variety of changes/substitutions are possible. Easier to make suggestions when the data is in.
*For one example, as Toole showed, even professional ears are easily confused between high-bass cuts and low-treble boosts.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.