Hi there everybody.
I have my TD124 working with an AT-1501mkIII that I spent a lot of money for. I also had to purchase a new plinth so I could ream a hole out of it to provide clearance for the main tonearm post. I'm not a woodworker, so it wasn't easy.
I was thinking I'd like to use that arm on a different turntable I got running, which is kind of floating my boat right now. So, I'm trying to find a tonearm that will fit with the proper geometry in the TD124 chassis and armboard without modifications or drilling large holes in the plinth.
The standard size armboard is designed to accommodate shorter tonearms. According to vinylengine.com, the Thorens TP14 arm had a pivot-to-spindle distance of only 190mm (with 20mm overhang). That's really short!
Therefore, my question is:
- What tonearms are you TD124 users out there using that fit easily on the standard armboard? Everybody's using SME 3009?
- I had been using an Audiocraft AC-3000 tonearm with 222mm pivot-spindle distance. That works. The problem is that it's an oil-damped unipivot, and I'm tired of fiddling. When it sounds good, it sounds great. But I've gummed it up with leaking damping oil, and it's a bear to get working correctly, and I have a tendency to gum things up. I think I need something that's more fool-resistant.
- I had purchased a Sony PUA-7 tonearm for its 222mm pivot-spindle distance, which looked like it would fit just fine. The problem is that its mounting collar is so wide it won't fit on the armboard without intruding onto the (raised) metalwork of the turntable. (See photo.) It's so frustrating.
- I also purchased an Audio Technica ATP-12T, thinking I could use the larger version armboard. But no, if I place the tonearm at the proper pivot-spindle distance, the arm post comes down right on that metal bar going around the perimeter of the armboard. Frustration again.
- I was looking for an Audio Technica AT-1005 or AT-1009, but have you seen the prices on eBay for these things? It's nuts. Too bad, because I'm sure one of those would fit easily (225mm pivot-spindle).
- Is the least expensive Jelco SA-250 tonearm (~$470) up to the standards of the AT or SME 3009 tonearms? Or does one have to spend the $700+ for the higher models to get to that level? (I understand the 1960s-70s AT tonearms had very good bearings, and I know a lot of people think the SME 3009 was very good.)
If I find an AT-1005 or AT-1009 in good shape for reasonable $$ then I'll go for it. Or maybe I'll come into some money so I can shop for anything I want. But for now, the question stands. What tonearms are you TD124 fans using that mounts easily to the stock armboard, and that you believe perform very well?
Thanks.
I have my TD124 working with an AT-1501mkIII that I spent a lot of money for. I also had to purchase a new plinth so I could ream a hole out of it to provide clearance for the main tonearm post. I'm not a woodworker, so it wasn't easy.
I was thinking I'd like to use that arm on a different turntable I got running, which is kind of floating my boat right now. So, I'm trying to find a tonearm that will fit with the proper geometry in the TD124 chassis and armboard without modifications or drilling large holes in the plinth.
The standard size armboard is designed to accommodate shorter tonearms. According to vinylengine.com, the Thorens TP14 arm had a pivot-to-spindle distance of only 190mm (with 20mm overhang). That's really short!
Therefore, my question is:
- What tonearms are you TD124 users out there using that fit easily on the standard armboard? Everybody's using SME 3009?
- I had been using an Audiocraft AC-3000 tonearm with 222mm pivot-spindle distance. That works. The problem is that it's an oil-damped unipivot, and I'm tired of fiddling. When it sounds good, it sounds great. But I've gummed it up with leaking damping oil, and it's a bear to get working correctly, and I have a tendency to gum things up. I think I need something that's more fool-resistant.
- I had purchased a Sony PUA-7 tonearm for its 222mm pivot-spindle distance, which looked like it would fit just fine. The problem is that its mounting collar is so wide it won't fit on the armboard without intruding onto the (raised) metalwork of the turntable. (See photo.) It's so frustrating.
- I also purchased an Audio Technica ATP-12T, thinking I could use the larger version armboard. But no, if I place the tonearm at the proper pivot-spindle distance, the arm post comes down right on that metal bar going around the perimeter of the armboard. Frustration again.
- I was looking for an Audio Technica AT-1005 or AT-1009, but have you seen the prices on eBay for these things? It's nuts. Too bad, because I'm sure one of those would fit easily (225mm pivot-spindle).
- Is the least expensive Jelco SA-250 tonearm (~$470) up to the standards of the AT or SME 3009 tonearms? Or does one have to spend the $700+ for the higher models to get to that level? (I understand the 1960s-70s AT tonearms had very good bearings, and I know a lot of people think the SME 3009 was very good.)
If I find an AT-1005 or AT-1009 in good shape for reasonable $$ then I'll go for it. Or maybe I'll come into some money so I can shop for anything I want. But for now, the question stands. What tonearms are you TD124 fans using that mounts easily to the stock armboard, and that you believe perform very well?
Thanks.
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I no longer have my TD-124 but I do have an AT-1005 that I like a lot. I just installed in on a Rek-O-Kut and it needed a 17mm hole. Would that work for you?
Cool. There is a washer of about 32mm outside diameter that would give you some wiggle room if the hole is larger than 17mm.
The hole appears to be right around 17mm. Maybe a hair small, maybe it's exact.
Any experience with the AT-1009? I wonder how different that one is from the AT-1005, performance-wise.
I wish I could afford an SME 3009 in good shape, but they seem to be fetching $1000 USD or so.
Any experience with the AT-1009? I wonder how different that one is from the AT-1005, performance-wise.
I wish I could afford an SME 3009 in good shape, but they seem to be fetching $1000 USD or so.
Didn't realize they were so high these days, here is one on ebay.
USED SME MODEL 3009 Tone arm Universal tone arm | eBay
USED SME MODEL 3009 Tone arm Universal tone arm | eBay
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Well, the question is whether an SME 3009 with removable headshell is a few hundred dollars' worth superior to an Audio Technica AT-1005 or AT-1009. I'm told the bearings used in the older Audio Technica arms were very good, and that the SME bearings were not as great as they were cracked up to be. I really don't know, because I've never had an SME 3009.
I only liked the non-detachable headshell version, which still allowed azimuth adjustment.
Which cartridge?
Which cartridge?
I have a Denon DL110, a Shure M35X, a Shure SC35C and an old Stanton 681A.
I like the Denon best on clean records, the Shure M35X on dirty/worn records.
The Stanton sounds surprisingly good.
I like the Denon best on clean records, the Shure M35X on dirty/worn records.
The Stanton sounds surprisingly good.
I have an Audio Technica ATP-12T that was hiding in the closet, with an armboard I had cut for me a few years ago. Last night I dragged it out and tried to get it lined up. I found that:
1) I had to ream out part of the plinth under the armboard area to make room for the tonearm post. I succeeded in doing that, but it was painful. There was a wood screw hiding in the birch ply laminations (??). That did wonders for the drill bit. (Oh well.) It's ugly, but I got the arm post to fit.
2) The location of the tonearm allows the longest possible pivot-spindle distance available, since the tonearm post is just clearing the turntable's metal frame (under the armboard). Unfortunately, when I tried to align the cartridge with a protractor, I found that the pivot-spindle distance is still not quite long enough. It's just off enough so that I can't quite achieve a proper Stevenson alignment, even with the cartridge mounted all the way forward in the headshell.
FRUSTRATING, to say the least. That was a lot of work (and a lot of damage) for it to come out wrong.
At any rate, I gave this setup a spin with an old record I don't really care about. The ATP-12T sounds very good. I was lucky to get one in extremely clean condition. It looks nice too. But I don't think it can be coaxed into the correct position on the TD124.
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1) I had to ream out part of the plinth under the armboard area to make room for the tonearm post. I succeeded in doing that, but it was painful. There was a wood screw hiding in the birch ply laminations (??). That did wonders for the drill bit. (Oh well.) It's ugly, but I got the arm post to fit.
2) The location of the tonearm allows the longest possible pivot-spindle distance available, since the tonearm post is just clearing the turntable's metal frame (under the armboard). Unfortunately, when I tried to align the cartridge with a protractor, I found that the pivot-spindle distance is still not quite long enough. It's just off enough so that I can't quite achieve a proper Stevenson alignment, even with the cartridge mounted all the way forward in the headshell.
FRUSTRATING, to say the least. That was a lot of work (and a lot of damage) for it to come out wrong.
At any rate, I gave this setup a spin with an old record I don't really care about. The ATP-12T sounds very good. I was lucky to get one in extremely clean condition. It looks nice too. But I don't think it can be coaxed into the correct position on the TD124.
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Well... I'm humbled, in public, once again.
I'm a complete dummy.
I was using a printed out protractor from vinylengine.com. I know you've already guessed the problem -- My printer doesn't scale properly.
I have an old Denneson protractor, which I bought around 1985. I pulled it out, lined it up (it is a real pain to use), and found that its alignment puts the cartridge further back in the headshell than the erroneous 'Stevenson' alignment from my printed out protractor. That can't be right.
So... Hooray! The ATP-12T is in the right place. It can achieve a Baerwald alignment.
It's too early in the morning here for me to play any records, but I'll try it out later today.
Sorry for the stupid post. My bad. Like I said, sometimes I can be a real dummy.
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I'm a complete dummy.
I was using a printed out protractor from vinylengine.com. I know you've already guessed the problem -- My printer doesn't scale properly.
I have an old Denneson protractor, which I bought around 1985. I pulled it out, lined it up (it is a real pain to use), and found that its alignment puts the cartridge further back in the headshell than the erroneous 'Stevenson' alignment from my printed out protractor. That can't be right.
So... Hooray! The ATP-12T is in the right place. It can achieve a Baerwald alignment.
It's too early in the morning here for me to play any records, but I'll try it out later today.
Sorry for the stupid post. My bad. Like I said, sometimes I can be a real dummy.
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Well, I committed some serious damage to this plinth. It looks horrible inside, and it has a vertical channel dug out on one side to make room for the 12" arm. Fortunately its functionality was not affected.
Here are some photos of the TD124 with the ATP-12T (10") tonearm mounted. The ugly stuff is hidden under the nice walnut armboard. I know it's there, but I'll try not to think about it. 😱
Here are some photos of the TD124 with the ATP-12T (10") tonearm mounted. The ugly stuff is hidden under the nice walnut armboard. I know it's there, but I'll try not to think about it. 😱
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Nice armboard rongon!
I has mounted an Jelco 10,5 arm on my friends TD 145 it is tight only 4-5 mm free space to the frame all mounted on a birch plywood.
I has mounted an Jelco 10,5 arm on my friends TD 145 it is tight only 4-5 mm free space to the frame all mounted on a birch plywood.
Thanks... but I didn't make that armboard. 😱 I bought it pre-drilled from James Campbell, in SE Pennsylvania. Jim rebuilt my TD124 a few years ago. He's "jec965" on eBay.
This birch plywood plinth was purchased from an eBay seller in Moldova. I got the cheapest one I could get, because with me doing the woodworking I knew there would be mistakes, and probably big ones. 😱
I had to ream out the area underneath the armboard, under the turntable's metal frame, to make room for the tonearm post. There's just barely enough room in there, but it fits. It's a good thing you can't see in there once the turntable's in place, because it's ugly in there.
One word of caution, in case anybody stumbles into this thread. The Moldovan eBay seller's plinths are nice, great bang for the buck, but if you're going to try to drill holes in it to get things to fit, beware of wood screws buried between the laminations. I hit one and it did a number on my drill bit.
It was a learning experience.
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Another thing: Now that I have a little experience with both an old ATP-12T and a newer AT-1503mkIII, I can tell you that the ATP-12T definitely prefers heavier tracking/lower compliance cartridges, while the AT-1503mkIII works much better with light tracking/higher compliance carts.
I have a Shure M35X for which I bought an N44X stylus from JICO. The N44X was the needle supplied with the M44GX cart, and was supposed to track at 1.5 grams, which suggests high compliance. The M35X/N44X combo would not track well in the ATP-12T, but it worked fine in the AT-1503mIII. Once I swapped in the original M35X stylus, which tracks at 3 grams, the ATP-12T was happy again. (Too bad the Shure stylus doesn't sound good. The JICO stylus sounds noticeably better.) I think the ATP-12T is a higher mass arm than the AT-1503mkIII. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
Another clue is that the VTF scale on the ATP-12T goes up to 5g, while the VTF scale on the AT-1503mkIII only goes up to 3g. I think that's a big, fat hint right there.
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This birch plywood plinth was purchased from an eBay seller in Moldova. I got the cheapest one I could get, because with me doing the woodworking I knew there would be mistakes, and probably big ones. 😱
I had to ream out the area underneath the armboard, under the turntable's metal frame, to make room for the tonearm post. There's just barely enough room in there, but it fits. It's a good thing you can't see in there once the turntable's in place, because it's ugly in there.
One word of caution, in case anybody stumbles into this thread. The Moldovan eBay seller's plinths are nice, great bang for the buck, but if you're going to try to drill holes in it to get things to fit, beware of wood screws buried between the laminations. I hit one and it did a number on my drill bit.
It was a learning experience.
--
Another thing: Now that I have a little experience with both an old ATP-12T and a newer AT-1503mkIII, I can tell you that the ATP-12T definitely prefers heavier tracking/lower compliance cartridges, while the AT-1503mkIII works much better with light tracking/higher compliance carts.
I have a Shure M35X for which I bought an N44X stylus from JICO. The N44X was the needle supplied with the M44GX cart, and was supposed to track at 1.5 grams, which suggests high compliance. The M35X/N44X combo would not track well in the ATP-12T, but it worked fine in the AT-1503mIII. Once I swapped in the original M35X stylus, which tracks at 3 grams, the ATP-12T was happy again. (Too bad the Shure stylus doesn't sound good. The JICO stylus sounds noticeably better.) I think the ATP-12T is a higher mass arm than the AT-1503mkIII. That's the only explanation I can come up with.
Another clue is that the VTF scale on the ATP-12T goes up to 5g, while the VTF scale on the AT-1503mkIII only goes up to 3g. I think that's a big, fat hint right there.
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Here are a few pictures when I built my friend's plinth I veneered with an oak veneer and he chose to have aluminum sheet on top and bottom. If you look where the tone arm is, I mounted the TD124 and drew along the inside of the frame, then I drilled and sanded the surface in the hole.
I buy my birch plywood via a carpentry shop where there are often smaller pieces left over which I join together, sometimes it becomes thicker or thinner plywood but the result is the same.
I buy my birch plywood via a carpentry shop where there are often smaller pieces left over which I join together, sometimes it becomes thicker or thinner plywood but the result is the same.
That's a really nice look with that gray aluminum next to the birch ply.
I see where you left space around the arm post. That's exactly what's needed. I tried to drill and sand but it came out looking a LOT worse than yours did. Nice work!
I see where you left space around the arm post. That's exactly what's needed. I tried to drill and sand but it came out looking a LOT worse than yours did. Nice work!
Thanks!
When we discussed what the plinth would look like before the build, it was decided that a long tonearm would fit on the tonarm board the longest was 10.5 ". My friend liked the original plinth but thought that a little more mass should be in place I increased the area around with 30 mm. At the back there is room for an extra tone arm if he wants it up to 12 " everything is prepared.
When we discussed what the plinth would look like before the build, it was decided that a long tonearm would fit on the tonarm board the longest was 10.5 ". My friend liked the original plinth but thought that a little more mass should be in place I increased the area around with 30 mm. At the back there is room for an extra tone arm if he wants it up to 12 " everything is prepared.
I'd look at a 9 inch Schick or Jelco TK-850S MKII (If you can find one) for mounting on the standard armboard. I've owned 4 SME3009 S2 Unimproved and found them to be less than wonderful.
My TD-124 MKII was originally equipped with an SME 3009 as was the TD-125 I owned before it.
I currently run a TK-850L on my TD-124 with a Mutech Hayabusa, and Sorane ZA-12 with a Panasonic EPC-451CR strain gauge cartridge. Both are 12 inch.
ATP-12T you have installed looks pretty nice.
My TD-124 MKII was originally equipped with an SME 3009 as was the TD-125 I owned before it.
I currently run a TK-850L on my TD-124 with a Mutech Hayabusa, and Sorane ZA-12 with a Panasonic EPC-451CR strain gauge cartridge. Both are 12 inch.
ATP-12T you have installed looks pretty nice.