Does look nice, drivers only appear to be available in Europe, I emailed them, thanks for the suggestions!
I've tried quite some speakers in the past. I would suggest low and mid from Precision Devices and maybe Beyma for compression driver. I would strongly suggest using 1'' compression driver,maybe 1.4''. But stay away from 2''. All those big compression drivers have nasty spikes in 2-4K region and a lot of eq-ing and even deq-ing is needed. It sounds ''over processed''. I'm using 2'' with 15'' and I know what I'm talking. B&C has also new ''FW'' range. I've tried 15FW76 and it is nice sounding. But not so nice as PD153ER. Of course I'm using it for PA.
Ah one more thing. I've tried 1'' compression driver form B&C. I can't remember exact model. It is one with poly diaphragm...and must say I prefer Beyma CP350ti which is obsolete now. B&C sounded ''boring''.
Cheers
Ah one more thing. I've tried 1'' compression driver form B&C. I can't remember exact model. It is one with poly diaphragm...and must say I prefer Beyma CP350ti which is obsolete now. B&C sounded ''boring''.
Cheers
Some SEOS 12 horns showed up today, now I need to order a good compression driver!
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Got a compression driver to play with and mounted it to the SEOS horn, I sat this on top of my RS4 speakers and substituted it for the XT25 tweeter just to see how it sounds. It is a B&C DE250-8.
About 15db more efficient than the Vifa according to REW, after matching the levels to the Vifa it sounds nice but very bright and much more present and dynamic, I would say more engaging to listen to bit more fatiguing.
We'll see I'll play with it some more, suggestions are always welcome, Thanks!
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About 15db more efficient than the Vifa according to REW, after matching the levels to the Vifa it sounds nice but very bright and much more present and dynamic, I would say more engaging to listen to bit more fatiguing.
We'll see I'll play with it some more, suggestions are always welcome, Thanks!
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I also have that waveguide combo. I prefer crossing no lower than 2k. Does get a bit harsh on the low end. Absolutely love it for live bass guitar amplification though. Couldn't ask for better high mids/highs.
Thanks for the feedback Ernie! I'm building the for 2 channel audio, definitely a different beast than the average dome tweeter
Gotta love the build quality of those B&C drivers. Even if I'd have gone with something with a titanium diaphragm. Now, this is a matter of taste to some extent, but I've found I usually prefer the sound of Ti drivers over other materials if not going for the ridiculously expensive drivers with something like beryllium for diaphragms. And I'd sure like to try beryllium drivers head to head with some of the newer 18Sounds with TiN coated diaphragms - at least their response plots look amazing.
But yeah, compression drivers are very different beasts compared to domes and other "conventional" forms of delivering high frequency noise. And after I got accustomed to them, I've found there's no going back, even given the drawbacks. Conventional domes just sound boring. Even some really expensive Magico speakers with probably some slightly more exotic domes just made me go "meh..."
The thing to make them work for you is to consider the on-axis response taking their directivity into account. The more your off-axis response looks like a constant directivity radiator, the more you need a slight tilt downwards from the lower treble to say 20kHz. As much as a 6dB tilt might be beneficial. That's because the more the driver and horn approach constant directivity, the more you have in-room high frequency energy, since they as a pair do not beam like a dome tweeter does.
Also, to ensure a non-fatiguing listen, see that your response doesn't have more energy at the say 5-8kHz region than it has at lower treble and upper midrange. Otherwise it might sound too aggressive.
And, as a disclaimer, these are just guidelines and some stupid advice. Cook your own sound to serve your taste. I'm really no expert, I've just worked with some PA-drivers, mostly coaxials. And the issue of directivity vs. pleasant response has always cropped up. So, maybe I've learned something, or maybe I'm just full of bovine fecal matter. Enjoy with a pinch of salt, that is...
But yeah, compression drivers are very different beasts compared to domes and other "conventional" forms of delivering high frequency noise. And after I got accustomed to them, I've found there's no going back, even given the drawbacks. Conventional domes just sound boring. Even some really expensive Magico speakers with probably some slightly more exotic domes just made me go "meh..."
The thing to make them work for you is to consider the on-axis response taking their directivity into account. The more your off-axis response looks like a constant directivity radiator, the more you need a slight tilt downwards from the lower treble to say 20kHz. As much as a 6dB tilt might be beneficial. That's because the more the driver and horn approach constant directivity, the more you have in-room high frequency energy, since they as a pair do not beam like a dome tweeter does.
Also, to ensure a non-fatiguing listen, see that your response doesn't have more energy at the say 5-8kHz region than it has at lower treble and upper midrange. Otherwise it might sound too aggressive.
And, as a disclaimer, these are just guidelines and some stupid advice. Cook your own sound to serve your taste. I'm really no expert, I've just worked with some PA-drivers, mostly coaxials. And the issue of directivity vs. pleasant response has always cropped up. So, maybe I've learned something, or maybe I'm just full of bovine fecal matter. Enjoy with a pinch of salt, that is...
Have to agree with the advice given. They can sound very very nice with proper implementation. In a home setting you'll likely never run into distortion problems. All your main concerns revolve around smooth downward tilting frequency response and smooth power response. Your room will dictate what sounds right over time.
The lower midrange/bass often becomes a mess due to room interactions. This will need to be taken care of if you want a true high quality experience. Larger room are less of a problem but there is usually room for improvement.
If possible, measure and roughly optimize the speaker outdoors first to get a baseline to compare with room effects. Over corrections do very bad things to sound.
The lower midrange/bass often becomes a mess due to room interactions. This will need to be taken care of if you want a true high quality experience. Larger room are less of a problem but there is usually room for improvement.
If possible, measure and roughly optimize the speaker outdoors first to get a baseline to compare with room effects. Over corrections do very bad things to sound.
This. Read it twice. Then underline it and read again twice. Then learn it by heart. And - this is the important thing - understand it.
Sorry for the OT, but there was too much idea embedded in a single sentence to resist.
Duly noted, great advice guys, I will try the downward slop and see how it sounds, I think the main issue I was dealing with was too much output in the 1-3k range making them sound "honkey and quacky", I think I have a lot more time into balancing this horn into the rest of the system before I can make any judgements about how it sounds.
Will keep you posted, thanks!
I have a few more ideas I wanted to bounce around, see what you guys think.
1 - I'm thinking of breaking these speakers up into 2 cabinets, the 18" in a lower cabinet and the mid/tweeter in an upper one. For one these things are going to weight at least 150lbs each once I'm done with bracing and 1.5" thick wall, I need a way to move them around by myself when needed. Also the advantage of moving the 18" subwoofer around the room would be nice as well for acoustics, but I have a feeling two B&C 18" getting 500 watts each will be able to overcome just about any room acoustics at sane listening levels.
2 - I really like what I"m reading about the FaitalPRO 10" mid (http://www.parts-express.com/faitalp...-ohm--294-1201) and the price is very right, I'd consider either using two (MTM style) 4 ohm in series for an 8 ohm load or two 8 ohm in parallel for a 4 ohm which will match the efficiency of the horn better anyway. I like the idea of running 2 speakers for midrange whenever possible to spread out the acoustic load, also looks cool, any advice? If I don't do the two 10's then I'll probably stick to one of the Eminence 12A.
Thanks!
1 - I'm thinking of breaking these speakers up into 2 cabinets, the 18" in a lower cabinet and the mid/tweeter in an upper one. For one these things are going to weight at least 150lbs each once I'm done with bracing and 1.5" thick wall, I need a way to move them around by myself when needed. Also the advantage of moving the 18" subwoofer around the room would be nice as well for acoustics, but I have a feeling two B&C 18" getting 500 watts each will be able to overcome just about any room acoustics at sane listening levels.
2 - I really like what I"m reading about the FaitalPRO 10" mid (http://www.parts-express.com/faitalp...-ohm--294-1201) and the price is very right, I'd consider either using two (MTM style) 4 ohm in series for an 8 ohm load or two 8 ohm in parallel for a 4 ohm which will match the efficiency of the horn better anyway. I like the idea of running 2 speakers for midrange whenever possible to spread out the acoustic load, also looks cool, any advice? If I don't do the two 10's then I'll probably stick to one of the Eminence 12A.
Thanks!
Little update (in case anyone is still following lols)
I have decided on the following drivers in each tall "tower" as a 3-way
Q2 FaitalPro 8FE200 and Q1 B&C DE250 with Seos12 in an MTM configuration.
Q1 DIYSG Magnum 12 Eminence Subwoofer
Tweeter will cross over around 1500hz to 8", 8" to the 12" around 1-200hz.
Impedance of 8" will be 4ohms, tweeter and subwoofer 8 ohms (unfortunately all the subwoofer was available in).
Tower will be approximately 44" tall, about 17" wide and 15" deep, will use standard construction out of well braced Maple Plywood. Should start cutting wood next week!
I have decided on the following drivers in each tall "tower" as a 3-way
Q2 FaitalPro 8FE200 and Q1 B&C DE250 with Seos12 in an MTM configuration.
Q1 DIYSG Magnum 12 Eminence Subwoofer
Tweeter will cross over around 1500hz to 8", 8" to the 12" around 1-200hz.
Impedance of 8" will be 4ohms, tweeter and subwoofer 8 ohms (unfortunately all the subwoofer was available in).
Tower will be approximately 44" tall, about 17" wide and 15" deep, will use standard construction out of well braced Maple Plywood. Should start cutting wood next week!
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