Thiel 2.3 - Substitute 4.5" Coaxial Driver

[Allan]

I have a pair of Thiel 2.3 speakers in which I'd like to try a substitute 4.5 inch mid/tweeter coaxial with.

Does anyone know of a suitable substitute coaxial please?


Thanks

 

[planet10]

Some nice FRs but not a co-ax.

Baby KEF UniQ? Baby Tannoy?

I’m sure the guys that weigh every coax will chime in.

dave

 

[mattstat]

What do you plan to do about the crossover?

I think that Thiel model used a single voice coil mid/tweeter with mechanical crossover in the driver.

 

[Allan]

@mattstat .. xover in the driver, thats not what I wanted to hear. If that is the case then I guess its not too much of an issue, I can build another xover. I have all required software and measurement tools for it.

@planet10 your recommendations, are they coaxial or full range drivers? Whats an FR please?

 

[planet10]

Yes, a full/widerange driver like Markaudio Pluvia 7HD or Alpair 7 MAOP would be a good choice.

No XO needed except where you cross to the woofer.

dave

 

[mattstat]

I can build another xover

I'm not trying to discourage your experiment, just bringing up some details that might or might not be relevant to you.

With a typical passive crossover and co-ax you may not be able to maintain the time/phase coherence of the original Thiel design. Modern coaxial drivers tend to have at least a minor Z offset between the midrange and tweeter acoustic centers. It's annoying, but it's there in many.

Finding one that that would let you use 6 dB/octave crossovers is a little tougher as well.

Sensitivity of typical small co-ax's can also be an issue if you want everything passive. The Thiels were pretty high at about 90.5 dB.

If you're going to go active/DSP, all of this can be corrected.

At any rate, here are a few co-ax's that are about the right size (but most have lower sensitivity in the midrange than your speaker):

SB Acoustics SB12PFCR25-4-COAX 4"
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/sb-acoustics-sb12pfcr25-4-coax-4-coaxial-4-ohms-round/

SB Acoustics SB12PACR25-4-COAX 4"
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/sb-acoustics-sb12pacr25-4-coax-4-round/

Morel Integra 424 - this one claims time alignment, but I have not worked with it so I'm not sure. Parts Express' page says "near perfect time-alignment," and I'm not sure what that means.
https://www.parts-express.com/Morel...-Source-Coaxial-Full-Range-297-024?quantity=1

Sica 4 C 1,5 CP - highest sensitivity I've seen in a quick search.
https://sica.it/prodotto/4-c-1-5-cp/

 

[Allan]

thanks Mattstat, will look into your suggestions. I think the best starting point is to remove the coaxial and do an impedance, response & TS tests so I know exactly what I'm up against. Will post the test results here sometime over the coming days..

 

[Sonce]

I have a pair of Thiel 2.3 speakers in which I'd like to try a substitute 4.5 inch mid/tweeter coaxial with.

Does anyone know of a suitable substitute coaxial please?

Why do you want to substitute the original mid/tweeter coax?
Actually, it is a small fullrange driver with what can be described as having an internal "mechanical" crossover - somewhat similar to dual cone fullrange drivers.
The easiest way for substitution is to find good conventional fullrange unit (not dual-cone!).

 

[Marveloudio]

Look for Beyma 3FR30 old version with foam surround , about $30

91dB and flat response up to 10kHz , even at 45deg better than most dome tweeters!

Greetz - The Audio Saviour from Planet 11 🙂

 

[Allan]

well I finally got around to moving forward a tad further with this coaxial. I did some free air measurements of the Thiel 2.3 coaxial driver I removed from one of the speakers using Daytons DAT and got the following results:

Re: 2.68Ω
Fs 146Hz
Qts 0.8228
Qes 1.234
Qms 2.468

I'm hoping I dont have to machine out the speaker baffle to fit a replacement driver just incase it doesn't sonically match, I measured the Thiel 2.3 coaxial baffle hole diameter at 114 mm and the mounting hole diameters are 100 mm. Rather than machine the baffle I'd rather make up an adaptor plate even if it means stepping down in driver size.

 

[itz_all_about_the_music]

I have a pair of Thiel 2.3 speakers in which I'd like to try a substitute 4.5 inch mid/tweeter coaxial with.

Does anyone know of a suitable substitute coaxial please?


Thanks

Do you, by chance, have the CS 2.3 x-over schematic?

 

[Arez]

https://www.coherentsourceservice.com/

The 2.4 xo can be found on here, just use search.

 

[itz_all_about_the_music]

The 2.4 is readily available. But do you, by chance, have the CS 2.3 x-over schematic?

 

[Arez]

But do you, by chance, have the CS 2.3 x-over schematic?

No then i would have posted it.
If no luck you can try the link i provided.

 

[AVWERK]

What exactly was wrong with the original ?

 

[itz_all_about_the_music]

No then i would have posted it.
If no luck you can try the link i provided.

Yes, of courese I tried the Thiel driver repair folks @ CoherentSource. No, they do not have the CS 2.3 X-over schematic.

 

[Arez]

only find some pics

 

[Sonce]

@Allan

Why do you want to substitute the original mid/tweeter coax?

What exactly was wrong with the original ?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Some nice FRs but not a co-ax.

Baby KEF UniQ? Baby Tannoy?

I’m sure the guys that weigh every coax will chime in.

dave

Yes, I believe it's a full range. Their so-called "mechanical crossover" is basically that ring of elastic material that allows the dustcap to decouple and behave like a tweeter. (Though it's not.)

The closest I can think of is the SB Acoustics full range, the aluminum one with the soft dustcap that mimics a tweeter.

 

[Boden]

If I properly interpret the cross-sectional sketch of the 4.5 unit, it is basically a full range with a dome like structure glued to the voiceoil former and a tweeter surround decoupled classic cone.

Alas, It did not lead to another revolution in wideband design.