Re: RE:NOISE,NOISE,NOISE
Do you mean cold solder joint, or a joint with excessive solder.
Just curious, do you have any data, or theories to back this up???
Without explanation of why this happens, it sounds rather subjective. (Subjective is OK, if you state that it is so) 🙂
Dan
fdegrove said:
Do you mean cold solder joint, or a joint with excessive solder.
Just curious, do you have any data, or theories to back this up???
Without explanation of why this happens, it sounds rather subjective. (Subjective is OK, if you state that it is so) 🙂
Dan
SY said:
First order distortion is his music! It Means he really likes silence 🙂
Also, can you define for me what you mean by second order distortion, maybe mathematically? You mean frequecies double that of the fundimental?
-Dan
SOLDER NOISE
Hi,
I mean the excessive use of solder.
Without proof other than experience I can hardly call this scientific.
Is it the fact that when using too much solder one creates a less defined path for electrons to pass through,hence creating spurious noise?
I really wouldn't know.
Observation shows however that the less solder one uses the less noisy it becomes and the better the same circuit sounds.
I suppose this would be a measurable factor,I just never did do appropriate measurent on this.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
I mean the excessive use of solder.
Without proof other than experience I can hardly call this scientific.
Is it the fact that when using too much solder one creates a less defined path for electrons to pass through,hence creating spurious noise?
I really wouldn't know.
Observation shows however that the less solder one uses the less noisy it becomes and the better the same circuit sounds.
I suppose this would be a measurable factor,I just never did do appropriate measurent on this.
Cheers,😉
Re: HARMONICS.
Hi,
Nope, actually I'm asking for a definiton so that we are all on the same page. I'm just not sure what you guys refer to as first and second order harmonics. I believe you are speaking of Even and Odd harmonics, correct? First order being odd multiples of the fundimental, and Second being Even multiples... ...is this true?
Sort of off subject, and that it's on my mind, how do you feel that frequency response and it's corresponding phase shift affects the summation between harmonic multiples? Espically at the low frequency cutoff of an amplifier (if the amp is not rated for DC output, that is).
As for the large vs. small solder, there may be some merit to it, like I say I don't know. I've never heard of any differences, other than I've heard that the millitary wants a little solder as possible on solder joints. (I believe this is because they want to be able to inspect the joint properly) It is possible that too much solder prevents the rosin from completely removing the oxide layer on the metals, which could be bad.
-Dan
Hi,
fdegrove said:
Nope, actually I'm asking for a definiton so that we are all on the same page. I'm just not sure what you guys refer to as first and second order harmonics. I believe you are speaking of Even and Odd harmonics, correct? First order being odd multiples of the fundimental, and Second being Even multiples... ...is this true?
Sort of off subject, and that it's on my mind, how do you feel that frequency response and it's corresponding phase shift affects the summation between harmonic multiples? Espically at the low frequency cutoff of an amplifier (if the amp is not rated for DC output, that is).
As for the large vs. small solder, there may be some merit to it, like I say I don't know. I've never heard of any differences, other than I've heard that the millitary wants a little solder as possible on solder joints. (I believe this is because they want to be able to inspect the joint properly) It is possible that too much solder prevents the rosin from completely removing the oxide layer on the metals, which could be bad.
-Dan
ODD ORDER...
Hi,
Yes.
THD.
Your second topic:
The broader the frequency response the better,provided you can maintain stabilty from the amps.
Being a vinyl person I don't feel the resonance frequency of tonearm/cartridge should be passed unimpeded.
This will often create a pumping effect on the amp, draining the PSU's energy.
In turn leading to uninvolving,lifeless soundreproduction.
I welcome other peoples' comment on this.
Ciao,😉
Hi,
Yes.
THD.
Your second topic:
The broader the frequency response the better,provided you can maintain stabilty from the amps.
Being a vinyl person I don't feel the resonance frequency of tonearm/cartridge should be passed unimpeded.
This will often create a pumping effect on the amp, draining the PSU's energy.
In turn leading to uninvolving,lifeless soundreproduction.
I welcome other peoples' comment on this.
Ciao,😉
Solder is not a very good conductor relative to copper.
(96S is better conductivity than lead/tin solder).
I have not experimented with varying the amount of solder on each joint, so I do not have a reference there, however more solder resumably means a more conductive joint.
I do however make sure that the whole joint is tinned properly (including the cut end of the component lead), and that sufficient time and tremperature is given to ensure thay the solder alloys properly into the surfaces being joined.
Eric.
(96S is better conductivity than lead/tin solder).
I have not experimented with varying the amount of solder on each joint, so I do not have a reference there, however more solder resumably means a more conductive joint.
I do however make sure that the whole joint is tinned properly (including the cut end of the component lead), and that sufficient time and tremperature is given to ensure thay the solder alloys properly into the surfaces being joined.
Eric.
TROP C'EST TROP
Hi,
No,not true.
When soldered correctly added solder will not increase conductivity but will add extra noise IMO.
Ciao, 😉
Hi,
No,not true.
When soldered correctly added solder will not increase conductivity but will add extra noise IMO.
Ciao, 😉
OP-AMP and thermal noise...
sorry guy, but I fail to see how a more robust connection will make noise?
Back on subject, I tried an experiment last night. I set up an op amp with a gain 100, and tied the open input to a resistor. Two 9 volt batteries were used to power the AMP. I used some heatsink compound to mount the IC to a thermoelectric cooler/heater.
I took a RMS voltage measurement of the noise (After shutting everything else off, and running a self cal on my scope). I then cooled the amp to 10F (-12C for you european types) and took a secont measurement. I then heated the amp to around 130F (around 55C) and took a third measurement.
What did I learn, well, not much.
NOT MUCH: -> The noise seemed to be slightly higher at higher temperatures, but no real changes could be detected. (the change was about .1 to .2mV RMS total from 10 to 130F. The total RMS noise voltage in all three cases was about 2.3mV RMS.
NOT MUCH MORE: -> Assuming the that the signal input was sufficient to drive the amplifier to within +-1 volts of th 9Volt rails,
that would give us a Signal to Noise Ratio of approximatley 68dB.
For what it's worth
-Dan
fdegrove said:
sorry guy, but I fail to see how a more robust connection will make noise?
Back on subject, I tried an experiment last night. I set up an op amp with a gain 100, and tied the open input to a resistor. Two 9 volt batteries were used to power the AMP. I used some heatsink compound to mount the IC to a thermoelectric cooler/heater.
I took a RMS voltage measurement of the noise (After shutting everything else off, and running a self cal on my scope). I then cooled the amp to 10F (-12C for you european types) and took a secont measurement. I then heated the amp to around 130F (around 55C) and took a third measurement.
What did I learn, well, not much.
NOT MUCH: -> The noise seemed to be slightly higher at higher temperatures, but no real changes could be detected. (the change was about .1 to .2mV RMS total from 10 to 130F. The total RMS noise voltage in all three cases was about 2.3mV RMS.
NOT MUCH MORE: -> Assuming the that the signal input was sufficient to drive the amplifier to within +-1 volts of th 9Volt rails,
that would give us a Signal to Noise Ratio of approximatley 68dB.
For what it's worth
-Dan
"When soldered correctly added solder will not increase conductivity but will add extra noise IMO."
Extra metal (solder) will surely increase conductivity won't it ?.
Have you done A/B on solder joint volume ?.
Eric.
Extra metal (solder) will surely increase conductivity won't it ?.
Have you done A/B on solder joint volume ?.
Eric.
XTRA SOLDER
Hi,
It may increase thermal conductivity,but would it not be better to use other methods for that?
Yes,the general consensus here amongst the audio crew is that once the joint is correctly executed,the less solder used the better.
One should not use solder as a mechanical building block to hold components in place.
Ciao, 😉
Hi,
It may increase thermal conductivity,but would it not be better to use other methods for that?
Yes,the general consensus here amongst the audio crew is that once the joint is correctly executed,the less solder used the better.
One should not use solder as a mechanical building block to hold components in place.
Ciao, 😉
halojoy said:
It was an LM833N, temp range from -40 to 85 deg C.
I picked 10 to 130F bacause the were easy temps to generate...
Re: ODD ORDER...
Yeah, but I don't use vinyl... ...at least not yet. I'm not completely sure that CD's are the way to go, being that the standard samling frequency puts the Nyquist at around 22Khz... ...With aliasing and all. Now if we get the standard sampling to around 96Khz or better, then more comfortable with it. (I do like the integrity of a CD, tho)
As for the frequency response, I've found in my own experience that low frequency cutoff is the important one. If the amp has a 45deg phase shift at 20 Hz, it isn't considered gone until 200Hz. Frequency response is partly the reason I've have not played with tube amps. If you're talking transformer coupled speakers, you need a really large transformer to prevent saturation at low frequencies. You also need a low loss core, at high frequencies. Not extremely easy to come up with.
I'd like to play with some tube stuf eventually. My Dad picked up about 3000 tubes, unused new stock (RCA and other big names) a while back. (They were being thrown out!!!) There are a lot of the popular audio tubes there, along with some RF tubes as well. He also grabbed a couple of tube testers. He was mainly interested in the RF tubes, and he'll keep the audio tubes for me. (There is a 4CX1000 with a base... ...that would make a killer amp!!!)
-Dan
fdegrove said:
Yeah, but I don't use vinyl... ...at least not yet. I'm not completely sure that CD's are the way to go, being that the standard samling frequency puts the Nyquist at around 22Khz... ...With aliasing and all. Now if we get the standard sampling to around 96Khz or better, then more comfortable with it. (I do like the integrity of a CD, tho)
As for the frequency response, I've found in my own experience that low frequency cutoff is the important one. If the amp has a 45deg phase shift at 20 Hz, it isn't considered gone until 200Hz. Frequency response is partly the reason I've have not played with tube amps. If you're talking transformer coupled speakers, you need a really large transformer to prevent saturation at low frequencies. You also need a low loss core, at high frequencies. Not extremely easy to come up with.
I'd like to play with some tube stuf eventually. My Dad picked up about 3000 tubes, unused new stock (RCA and other big names) a while back. (They were being thrown out!!!) There are a lot of the popular audio tubes there, along with some RF tubes as well. He also grabbed a couple of tube testers. He was mainly interested in the RF tubes, and he'll keep the audio tubes for me. (There is a 4CX1000 with a base... ...that would make a killer amp!!!)
-Dan
Re: Where do you add your noise?
There is something to be said for noise. Ever sit in an extermely quite room? The lack of sound is unbearable!!! 🙂
-Dan
halojoy said:
There is something to be said for noise. Ever sit in an extermely quite room? The lack of sound is unbearable!!! 🙂
-Dan
BANDWIDTH
Hi,
Absolutely.
I don't understand the part you put between parenthesis though.
IMO the amp should have wide bandwidth at both frequence extremes as would the line stage.
As far as phono goes the highs should be corrected so these don't cause an infinite drop above 20KHz and the lows can pass anything above say 10Hz to 15Hz.
The better the system the lower you can go for phono but on some recordings you can actually hear some low frequency rumble,from the lathe or mastertape perhaps.
Please do,not many of us get an opportunity like that.
Ciao,😉
Hi,
Absolutely.
I don't understand the part you put between parenthesis though.
IMO the amp should have wide bandwidth at both frequence extremes as would the line stage.
As far as phono goes the highs should be corrected so these don't cause an infinite drop above 20KHz and the lows can pass anything above say 10Hz to 15Hz.
The better the system the lower you can go for phono but on some recordings you can actually hear some low frequency rumble,from the lathe or mastertape perhaps.
Please do,not many of us get an opportunity like that.
Ciao,😉
Re: BANDWIDTH
I mean that CD's don't wear or degrad with time. Because the music is stored digitally, it will never fade (such as with other recording mediums).
Infact, I just talked to my dad today, he's going to keep all of the tubes for me. I know he's been checking on the prices of some of the tubes, and many are in the hundreds of $'s. A rare oppertunity indeed.
It'll be a good while before I start to play with any tubes. As with any project, I usually start to read/think about it ahead of time. (I know this is the wrong forum,but ) Since I'm starting to think of tubes, can you suggest any designs that you prefer?
-Dan
fdegrove said:
I mean that CD's don't wear or degrad with time. Because the music is stored digitally, it will never fade (such as with other recording mediums).
Infact, I just talked to my dad today, he's going to keep all of the tubes for me. I know he's been checking on the prices of some of the tubes, and many are in the hundreds of $'s. A rare oppertunity indeed.
It'll be a good while before I start to play with any tubes. As with any project, I usually start to read/think about it ahead of time. (I know this is the wrong forum,but ) Since I'm starting to think of tubes, can you suggest any designs that you prefer?
-Dan
TO BE FRANK...
Hi,
Granted CDs don't degrade that much but I find them to be no less fragile than vinyl.
Main problem is that so many people think they can't be damaged and treat them disrespectfully.
Let me state for the record (pun intended) that a vinyl record when well take care of will last at least half a century.
With CD it has been said that the polycarbonate layer may decompose after twenty years.
Admittedly I have not seen it happen yet.
Ciao,😉
Hi,
Granted CDs don't degrade that much but I find them to be no less fragile than vinyl.
Main problem is that so many people think they can't be damaged and treat them disrespectfully.
Let me state for the record (pun intended) that a vinyl record when well take care of will last at least half a century.
With CD it has been said that the polycarbonate layer may decompose after twenty years.
Admittedly I have not seen it happen yet.
Ciao,😉
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