Bluebeard,
My 4 scanspeak 8565-01 10" gave excellent quality for music at sane levels. Very deep too in a sealed box.(boxes are large for this driver) Will post a response..
For music alone these would have been fine, maybe with a single 15" below 30 - 40Hz if you're a bass addict...
For decent (reference level) home theater levels they were a bit lacking in displacement. I ended up using them 80Hz and up for films. 40Hz and up sounded much better for music though.
Cheers,
Rob.
Attatched: 4x 8565-01's, 2 per side with 80Hz lowpass (used as subs before my 3-ways were finished.) No eq btw. Boxes were ~120L per side. (Q 0.75, reduced a bit by stuffing)
My 4 scanspeak 8565-01 10" gave excellent quality for music at sane levels. Very deep too in a sealed box.(boxes are large for this driver) Will post a response..
For music alone these would have been fine, maybe with a single 15" below 30 - 40Hz if you're a bass addict...
For decent (reference level) home theater levels they were a bit lacking in displacement. I ended up using them 80Hz and up for films. 40Hz and up sounded much better for music though.
Cheers,
Rob.
Attatched: 4x 8565-01's, 2 per side with 80Hz lowpass (used as subs before my 3-ways were finished.) No eq btw. Boxes were ~120L per side. (Q 0.75, reduced a bit by stuffing)
Attachments
Better discription here.........
I get too excited (desperate) and do not explain so well- sorry 'bout that.
The DIY tube amps were refined with experimenting with 100s of NOS tubes I owned. I went beserk until I found each & every component that performed best to my ears. Also had a few others to listen as well. The refinements includes the rectifier, preamp & power tubes. Further, refinements in PS design, audio transformers, resistors, coupling & bypass caps. Thankfully, I had huge stocks of parts & tubes to play with- RCA, Sylvania, Tung-Sol, Brimar, Telefunken, Amperex, Vishey, Mills, various PIO caps, etc. I ended up with monoblock power amps. Most highly regarded preamp tubes were adding color & distortion in the music. As the amps were further improved in areas we were not aware existed until we heard it, it came down to the point of even best 6922 (CCa) & 7308s were almost sickening to us.
To further explain the Pro Ac 2.5s, I know they are well regarded speakers. But, the new x-over & Seas T25 Excel is something like a leap forward from a modern Wharfedale floor model speaker to stock Pro Ac 2.5s. That is a lot of improvement (granted in the upper mids & highs) & the crossover was quite important as was that Seas T25. I now have a about perfect time-aligned ladder type tweeter x-over design.
I performed the amp tuning with the modified Pro Ac 2.5s. A mediocre speaker would cover up any attempted minor tuning of the amplifier. The stock Pro Ac 2.5s would not get it either. It is all those small improvements that add up to a larger improvement. As for preamp tubes, I can not change them to something else now as I most likely heard all the different tubes. That included 'pinch waist' that or late 1930s 'metal base' this- you get the idea.
As for the highly regarded GG amp, my simple 6P5GT linestage outperforms it. (But, I am not finished with GG design yet).
Anyways, the JBL D130 was a real disappointment in the midrange as well. I could not rate it better than poor at best. That speaker would undo every mod I performed in my amps.
As for subs, how about ending up with custom built seperate pair of Peerless 10" XLS, tuned passive radiators and Class A plate amps operating at about 10-15% of rated power output. Should be good, right?. Lower cone excursions for a volume level produces lower distortion, right? Anyways, $1.5K & time wasted on that project.
So, what is an outstanding speaker or the best you have ever heard? Or, is the line array design the route to great dynamics & precision sound?
I get too excited (desperate) and do not explain so well- sorry 'bout that.
The DIY tube amps were refined with experimenting with 100s of NOS tubes I owned. I went beserk until I found each & every component that performed best to my ears. Also had a few others to listen as well. The refinements includes the rectifier, preamp & power tubes. Further, refinements in PS design, audio transformers, resistors, coupling & bypass caps. Thankfully, I had huge stocks of parts & tubes to play with- RCA, Sylvania, Tung-Sol, Brimar, Telefunken, Amperex, Vishey, Mills, various PIO caps, etc. I ended up with monoblock power amps. Most highly regarded preamp tubes were adding color & distortion in the music. As the amps were further improved in areas we were not aware existed until we heard it, it came down to the point of even best 6922 (CCa) & 7308s were almost sickening to us.
To further explain the Pro Ac 2.5s, I know they are well regarded speakers. But, the new x-over & Seas T25 Excel is something like a leap forward from a modern Wharfedale floor model speaker to stock Pro Ac 2.5s. That is a lot of improvement (granted in the upper mids & highs) & the crossover was quite important as was that Seas T25. I now have a about perfect time-aligned ladder type tweeter x-over design.
I performed the amp tuning with the modified Pro Ac 2.5s. A mediocre speaker would cover up any attempted minor tuning of the amplifier. The stock Pro Ac 2.5s would not get it either. It is all those small improvements that add up to a larger improvement. As for preamp tubes, I can not change them to something else now as I most likely heard all the different tubes. That included 'pinch waist' that or late 1930s 'metal base' this- you get the idea.
As for the highly regarded GG amp, my simple 6P5GT linestage outperforms it. (But, I am not finished with GG design yet).
Anyways, the JBL D130 was a real disappointment in the midrange as well. I could not rate it better than poor at best. That speaker would undo every mod I performed in my amps.
As for subs, how about ending up with custom built seperate pair of Peerless 10" XLS, tuned passive radiators and Class A plate amps operating at about 10-15% of rated power output. Should be good, right?. Lower cone excursions for a volume level produces lower distortion, right? Anyways, $1.5K & time wasted on that project.
So, what is an outstanding speaker or the best you have ever heard? Or, is the line array design the route to great dynamics & precision sound?
Re: Better discription here.........
Konnichiwa,
Hmmm. Have you ever considered that many of the mods you did may have been due to the limits and problems caused by your speakers which are now being revealed as a "bad idea" by a fundamentally superior speaker?
The D130 is a superb vocal speaker and while it has many faults, next to a Pro-Ac 2.5 a D130 & 076 are much more resolving and detailed.
So, perhaps you need to aknowledge that you have generated a great system but one where the overall balance is the sum of the various components and not an assembly of interchangable "best of breed" components.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
amperex said:
Hmmm. Have you ever considered that many of the mods you did may have been due to the limits and problems caused by your speakers which are now being revealed as a "bad idea" by a fundamentally superior speaker?
The D130 is a superb vocal speaker and while it has many faults, next to a Pro-Ac 2.5 a D130 & 076 are much more resolving and detailed.
So, perhaps you need to aknowledge that you have generated a great system but one where the overall balance is the sum of the various components and not an assembly of interchangable "best of breed" components.
Sayonara
Good thinking, but I do not believe so........
I have reference amplifiers & the D-130 speakers sounded poor on all the amps. The D-130 sounds the same in general on all the amps. Sensitive it is, but accurate it is not per my tests. The D-130 is a brilliant guitar amp speaker. We have a few guitar amps as well plus a few young musicians in our family.
As for resolution, I can hear the smallest of details in music without any effort. If my amps error, it is perhaps on the side of being too neutral vs warm. I consider quality warm amps as being slightly distorted plus colored. That 'color' is pleasing to some audiophiles. My amps perform without any edge or fatigue after hours of listening.
An example of somewhat pleasing colored sonics is when I hear a harp with a less than accurate preamp tube. Although the harp can sound quite magical (almost dreamy), when played thru a neutral amp the harp sounds, well like a real harp. A piano or a horn instrument is more demanding in this regard.
I have reference amplifiers & the D-130 speakers sounded poor on all the amps. The D-130 sounds the same in general on all the amps. Sensitive it is, but accurate it is not per my tests. The D-130 is a brilliant guitar amp speaker. We have a few guitar amps as well plus a few young musicians in our family.
As for resolution, I can hear the smallest of details in music without any effort. If my amps error, it is perhaps on the side of being too neutral vs warm. I consider quality warm amps as being slightly distorted plus colored. That 'color' is pleasing to some audiophiles. My amps perform without any edge or fatigue after hours of listening.
An example of somewhat pleasing colored sonics is when I hear a harp with a less than accurate preamp tube. Although the harp can sound quite magical (almost dreamy), when played thru a neutral amp the harp sounds, well like a real harp. A piano or a horn instrument is more demanding in this regard.
Re: No,
Sweet -- How did you decide on the right size back chamber? How low do they go? How high is the horn loading?
I'm almost done with some front and back horn loaded 15 coaxials. It was difficult getting the back chamber to perform best with both horns. I ended up building twin horns in each cabinet with a common throat that terminate into a common mouth for the back horn. I have one completely built and the sound is like heaven. I'm measuring 104 db at one meter from 45 to 18k.. Very cohesive and powerful
panos29 said:
Sweet -- How did you decide on the right size back chamber? How low do they go? How high is the horn loading?
I'm almost done with some front and back horn loaded 15 coaxials. It was difficult getting the back chamber to perform best with both horns. I ended up building twin horns in each cabinet with a common throat that terminate into a common mouth for the back horn. I have one completely built and the sound is like heaven. I'm measuring 104 db at one meter from 45 to 18k.. Very cohesive and powerful
Bass
Rob,
Your set-up with twin LAB horns has to be hellish loud output if you get frisky with the volume control.
We share the same thoughts on the SS 10", although I used 100 liters for each woofer, there just wasn't enough SPL there. In order to get the tuning Q's below .7 sealed, you start getting into a box larger than 120 liters each woofer, IIRC. Might as well go to a 12" or 15". It's been 6 yrs or so.
The Edgar 80 Hz horn has very good dynamic sound with either the JBL D130F 15" I mentioned, or with the Altec 416. The EVM 15L is equally good, too. My problem was room-related and meant getting far enough back from the horn stack to get everything to integrate properly. The boost you get on-axis using the Edgar horn is substantial, and also means the midhorn and HF are spread out more in a vertical array, so some distance is needed - 3.5 to 4 meters, maybe. This made room choices more difficult and means remodeling the one good space I have remaining. Exiled from all the rest.
Magnetar
At it again! The coaxial set-up sounds very interesting. You doing impedance sweeps or RTA to get both sides loading correctly into their respective horns? What's the crossover point so far?
Tim
Rob,
Your set-up with twin LAB horns has to be hellish loud output if you get frisky with the volume control.
We share the same thoughts on the SS 10", although I used 100 liters for each woofer, there just wasn't enough SPL there. In order to get the tuning Q's below .7 sealed, you start getting into a box larger than 120 liters each woofer, IIRC. Might as well go to a 12" or 15". It's been 6 yrs or so.
The Edgar 80 Hz horn has very good dynamic sound with either the JBL D130F 15" I mentioned, or with the Altec 416. The EVM 15L is equally good, too. My problem was room-related and meant getting far enough back from the horn stack to get everything to integrate properly. The boost you get on-axis using the Edgar horn is substantial, and also means the midhorn and HF are spread out more in a vertical array, so some distance is needed - 3.5 to 4 meters, maybe. This made room choices more difficult and means remodeling the one good space I have remaining. Exiled from all the rest.
Magnetar
At it again! The coaxial set-up sounds very interesting. You doing impedance sweeps or RTA to get both sides loading correctly into their respective horns? What's the crossover point so far?
Tim
Re: Bass
Hi Tim,
I used a signal generator, resistor, and ohm meter as well as RTA. The Beyma uses a single magnet with a 4.5" coil for the 15" woofer and a 4" compression driver with a round conical horn for the treble. I'm crossing at a staggered 600 Hz on the 15 and 1200 with the compression driver OR a 1000 Hz series network I'm still tuning. The Beyma bass/mid reminds me of the Altec 921 and the compression driver TAD 4002 with a little less top octave bite. Back horn is 6.5' long with 6890 cm2 mouth front/floor exit like the Stargate MTM, front horn is a (throat/front chamber) modified 180 Hz round SB tractrix horns. Big sound here
Tim Moorman said:
Hi Tim,
I used a signal generator, resistor, and ohm meter as well as RTA. The Beyma uses a single magnet with a 4.5" coil for the 15" woofer and a 4" compression driver with a round conical horn for the treble. I'm crossing at a staggered 600 Hz on the 15 and 1200 with the compression driver OR a 1000 Hz series network I'm still tuning. The Beyma bass/mid reminds me of the Altec 921 and the compression driver TAD 4002 with a little less top octave bite. Back horn is 6.5' long with 6890 cm2 mouth front/floor exit like the Stargate MTM, front horn is a (throat/front chamber) modified 180 Hz round SB tractrix horns. Big sound here
Bi-Horn...Twin Horn...Fore n Aft Horn
Magnetar,
Wow! How unlikely is this pairing? Nice work!
So, you are running the co-ax above the horn subs, using the rear horn for perhaps the bottom two octaves, say 45 Hz to 180 Hz, direct radiation up to the HF unit, then a 180 Hz (!) 2" SB horn on the compression driver, losing the stock conical in the process?
Far out!
Which Beyma model?
Tim
Magnetar,
Wow! How unlikely is this pairing? Nice work!
So, you are running the co-ax above the horn subs, using the rear horn for perhaps the bottom two octaves, say 45 Hz to 180 Hz, direct radiation up to the HF unit, then a 180 Hz (!) 2" SB horn on the compression driver, losing the stock conical in the process?
Far out!
Which Beyma model?
Tim
hi,
are any of these any good for a full range open baffle system?
http://www.paudiospeakers.com/paudio.html
Thanks
Raja
are any of these any good for a full range open baffle system?
http://www.paudiospeakers.com/paudio.html
Thanks
Raja
Re: Bi-Horn...Twin Horn...Fore n Aft Horn
The horn subs are doing 45 Hz down, The backhorn 45 to a 250 Hz , the front horn takes over at around 220 and the concentric compression driver uses it's own conical horn. The front throat was tricky - it requires it to be 1:1 to keep from mangling the compression driver horn response but also needed a straight throat entrance around 2" long to load the 15 properly. These are pretty big mutha's
Beyma 15DX Data Sheet
Tim Moorman said:
The horn subs are doing 45 Hz down, The backhorn 45 to a 250 Hz , the front horn takes over at around 220 and the concentric compression driver uses it's own conical horn. The front throat was tricky - it requires it to be 1:1 to keep from mangling the compression driver horn response but also needed a straight throat entrance around 2" long to load the 15 properly. These are pretty big mutha's
Beyma 15DX Data Sheet
Re: Bass
Thanks Tim,
After we'd just stacked the labs in a corner I connected them into my system - no calibration, just hooked to the amps that drove my tempests. My friend remarked that he could feel his hair moving..... Then I noticed they were out of phase
- Reversed the cables on one lab and pressed play..... Wow!!
I want to build some horn stuff next year - I can't fit them in my listening room, but really want to hear what a full horn system will do. I need to fill 80 / 100 -> 1000Hz in order to have a listen. I'm thinking bass 80 -> 250 / 300 and mid 250 -> 1000...
Funnily enough my present mid drivers model very well in hornresp 80 - 400.... Precision devices PD107's ... Although I haven't got the Le figure to put into hornresp..
Cheers,
Rob.
Tim Moorman said:
Thanks Tim,
After we'd just stacked the labs in a corner I connected them into my system - no calibration, just hooked to the amps that drove my tempests. My friend remarked that he could feel his hair moving..... Then I noticed they were out of phase
- Reversed the cables on one lab and pressed play..... Wow!!I want to build some horn stuff next year - I can't fit them in my listening room, but really want to hear what a full horn system will do. I need to fill 80 / 100 -> 1000Hz in order to have a listen. I'm thinking bass 80 -> 250 / 300 and mid 250 -> 1000...
Funnily enough my present mid drivers model very well in hornresp 80 - 400.... Precision devices PD107's ... Although I haven't got the Le figure to put into hornresp..
Cheers,
Rob.
Re: Triple Horn
Tim , concentric horns have been around longer than I have- IE - These Tannoy Autograph.......
I'll take a picture of mine when they are finished - the speaker above is an Autograph copy - made to go in a corner (1/8th space). Mine are built for 1/2 space but probably won't go as low as the Autograph - my speakers are a fair bit larger than these
Tim Moorman said:
Tim , concentric horns have been around longer than I have-
IE - These Tannoy Autograph.......
I'll take a picture of mine when they are finished - the speaker above is an Autograph copy - made to go in a corner (1/8th space). Mine are built for 1/2 space but probably won't go as low as the Autograph - my speakers are a fair bit larger than these
at first i thought the picture was of your latest creation. i thought "wow. those are his best looking speakers yet." then i noticed those weren't your basement walls...
the picture does illustrate the path you are going down pretty clearly. i don't think i was quite following what you were up to without it.
the picture does illustrate the path you are going down pretty clearly. i don't think i was quite following what you were up to without it.
Midbass
Rob,
The PD unit looks good for a horn - rising response, low Qs, high efficiency, although it's probably a little light at the low end to span down to your subs. Have you given any thought to making your own horn? Here's Vincent's site for a few pointers on round horns.
http://vincent.brient.free.fr/round_horns.htm
I'm curious about the LeCleach flares, and Zvodimir Vukovojac, Vuki, has good things to say about his new home-built LeCleach horn.
The Community M200 2" compression driver sounds very good from 400 Hz to ~3.5K or 4K Hz. I would like to try something like the LeCleach with it.
As far as Le measurement, you could try Speaker Workshop, or capture a frequency generator somewhere, reference resistors, and ohm meter. Ordinarily you would add a known weight or use a sealed box to test the driver, then back calculate to arrive at Le. There are formulas for that online. Or just email PD's tech department - they appear to be a first class manufacturer and probably have that data available. Naturally, inductance changes with frequency, but it usually is reported at 1K Hz for a mid, I believe. Judging from the extended response, there can't be too much inductance (.6 or .7= wild *** guess).
Roger Mogale, on your side of the pond, has some designs for midbass front horns as well, and likes the PD units.
Best
Tim
Rob,
The PD unit looks good for a horn - rising response, low Qs, high efficiency, although it's probably a little light at the low end to span down to your subs. Have you given any thought to making your own horn? Here's Vincent's site for a few pointers on round horns.
http://vincent.brient.free.fr/round_horns.htm
I'm curious about the LeCleach flares, and Zvodimir Vukovojac, Vuki, has good things to say about his new home-built LeCleach horn.
The Community M200 2" compression driver sounds very good from 400 Hz to ~3.5K or 4K Hz. I would like to try something like the LeCleach with it.
As far as Le measurement, you could try Speaker Workshop, or capture a frequency generator somewhere, reference resistors, and ohm meter. Ordinarily you would add a known weight or use a sealed box to test the driver, then back calculate to arrive at Le. There are formulas for that online. Or just email PD's tech department - they appear to be a first class manufacturer and probably have that data available. Naturally, inductance changes with frequency, but it usually is reported at 1K Hz for a mid, I believe. Judging from the extended response, there can't be too much inductance (.6 or .7= wild *** guess).
Roger Mogale, on your side of the pond, has some designs for midbass front horns as well, and likes the PD units.
Best
Tim
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