Doug, thanks for giving the coin thing a go. I am also trying it with one pound coin and two 10p coins. No conclusion as yet. If it were pure snake oil surely the highest value coins possible would be obligatory? Krugerrands? Maria Theresa dollars? Pieces of eight?
I suspect that a way out of the impasse would be to correlate what people judge to be good sound with a simple set of measurements. This could be delivered via a killer iPhone app and would give us a large pool of simple data. This is the approach taken by ornithologists and astronomers, who give interested eyeballs simple jobs to do. As ever, Shakespeare was there first. "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears!"
Easy but really resource heavy - out of reach of the average diyer on a daily basis. Your comments on the difficulty of repeatability of measurements is also noted. We're not much forwarder, are we?
I suspect that a way out of the impasse would be to correlate what people judge to be good sound with a simple set of measurements. This could be delivered via a killer iPhone app and would give us a large pool of simple data. This is the approach taken by ornithologists and astronomers, who give interested eyeballs simple jobs to do. As ever, Shakespeare was there first. "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears!"
Yeah, a couple of eyehooks, a few yards of fabric, and a friend. That's a much tougher deal than building an amplifier.
That's not data, any moreso than a pool of people who report on their horoscopes.
Please don't take this as a personal attach, but I'm afraid this is not really good enough. Rather than "try it and see", I would prefer to see an explanation of how this works and why we will "see" if we "try".
As for the shunmook site you provided a link to, I read approximately half of the explanations in there and they make no sense whatsoever! Contradicting the opening paragraph that claims all this is based on "simple high school physics", the descriptions for the various products give absolutely no hint as to why and how these wonderful changes will occur.
It was hard to pick a favourite, but this is probably it:
Had I tried to make up an ironic advert for audio-snake-oil products, I could not have done better.
Admittedly I am only familiar with only a couple of these (EnABL and Le Cleach) of these ideas, but this bullet thing and the majority of "resonators" are a completely different animal. Whether or not convincing, the merits of the EnABL treatment and Le Cleach's designs can be backed with scientific explanations. In contrast, unless I missed it, there is no explanation of why bullets, wooden-discs-tipped-with-steel-tipped-with-diamon or swamp-treated-aged-ebony-root record clamps will actually affect my sound, other than the obscure nonsensical unsubstantiated claims made in marketing material!
Further to your quote from the Shun Mook site I'd like to point out that african ebony grows in the savannah, possibly thousands of miles from the nearest swamp.
On the basis of this argument, if I were to suggest that painting your wall pink would enhance your listening experience you should experiment, then measure and theorise! Surely there must be a threshold of reason below which one is not prepared to experiment!
I am really not asking for much - all I want is a brief and sensible explanation of WHY and HOW these bullets/pieces of wood/coins etc will affect what I hear...
And a load of different speakers, and a means of moving the speakers in and out of the space unsighted and a bunch of people. Most amateur DIYers don't have these resources to hand in their homes. They build one set of speakers and tweak until happy, or Bonfire Night.
Tell that to the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds who can convince tens of thousands of ordinary people to give up an hour of their time to observe birds in their gardens. Tell that to astronomers who absolutely rely on interested amateurs to scan the skies and report unusual events.
Of course to collect data like this you have to connect with and trust the community. That would be all of us here.
Terryj - so that's why my trousers are always hanging off....
To test whether or not those bullets have an audible effect? Really? REALLY?
That's truly the most ridiculous excuse making I've ever encountered.
That is the magic. You must hand transport the ebony, thousands of miles, on foot, while flagellating tour left elbow with a whip consisting of the finest frog hair.
If the incantation is not just right, it will not work.
And this is the crux of the whole thread. Unfortunately, it seems that humans are predisposed to accept totally unfounded explanations for observations that they lack the understanding for.
It is natural for people to get sucked up into the world of Peter Pan when they turn their back to reason and logic.
The world of audio is not the only domain where this runs amok. Every field has their share of the irrational thinkers.
In 1619, René Descartes initiated what is known as the scientific method. Nearly 400 years later we still struggle between the forces of irrational and rational. I leave you with the four rules of Descartes' method:
1. Never to accept anything for true which I do not clearly know to be such.
2. Divide each of the difficulties under examination into as many parts as possible.
3. Begin with the simplest and easiest and then work step by step to the more complex.
4. Make enumerations so complete and reviews so general that I might be assured that nothing is omitted.
I will humor this discussion since I even enjoy ghost hunters 😉
Proper weight matters? How about how bad the resonsance in the speaker box is at the start?
The only way out of the impasse of subjective vs objective is the following.
1. Measurements are accurate and do indicated of its truely a different sound or just a placebo induced conclusion.
2. We need to record the differences into a wave file and poste them online. If you are hearing differences then a recorded wave file will also have those differences for all others to hear.
First of all, I didn't get the feeling that anyone was scared. Secondly, trying to reduce people that post here to a bunch of emotionless technocratic geeks, who have lost touch with the music and are only interested in measurements and system fidelity, shifting the blame on them for not "getting" the magic of the bullets/coins/whatever else is a rather cheap defence.
More importantly, if I understood this correctly, you are suggesting that efforts to provide objective, scientific and transparent explanations and measurements of the various attributes of equipment are riddled with "smoke and mirrors"? You are saying that no one has "deigned to reveal" their "methodology or results"? I believe you need to look around the forum, where you will have a wealth of information on methodology and numerous case-studies and results. If you are not satisfied, just start a new thread and ask.
I should also add here that to suggest that the measurements approach is opaque, when you are prepared to accepting/trying approaches which are based on little more than good will and magic is at best confused.
So do I. A good place to start would be if the phenomenon were repeatable.
Beg your pardon, I thought you meant blind testing generally. Any way, you'd want to be testing repeatability with other speakers, wouldn't you?
I am not at the end of a process advocating something that I believe works/makes a difference. I am at the beginning - wondering whether there is an observeable phenomenon. So far on this thread we have 2 yeses a no and a dunno (me) about the coin thing. If there is an observeable phenomenon e.g. these speakers appear to have more treble, then it may be time to get the rulers out and/or try the same treatment on as many speakers as you can lay your hands on. The cause may turn out to be cabinet resonance, we don't know, none of us, because none of us have measured anything. Incidentally, surely the ideal cabinet is not inert, but one that deals with unwanted vibration in a non-deleterious way?
Loren42 I think you would accept that I am at number one here
If I'm still baffled I'll move on to the other steps. I'm talking about the coins here.
When you are testing the coins are you the listener too? You can not do both and actually make valid conclusions about what you heard. Now you can measure the speaker with and without coins. Do you have measurements?
Hint: DIYers should always know how to measure 😉
I forgot to ask you, why do you think that?
If cost, size, time is unlimited then the box can be completely overbuilt and there will minimum vibration...definitely not enough for a couple of coins to make a difference. My speakers tend to weight > 50lbs to start with and this for "smaller" 2-ways!!
What speakers are you use too?
SY, now I am confused. You seemed to have formed some belief that I am somehow advocating some form of magic. I am attempting to look at something from a different angle. I suppose it is possible to drive either on the right or the left of the road. It is clearly impossible to do both at the same time. I definitively withdraw from the argument as it is simply spiralling into misunderstanding on all sides.
"I suppose it is possible to drive either on the right or the left of the road. It is clearly impossible to do both at the same time."
You haven't seen my friend drive!
You haven't seen my friend drive!
Well, you are. Or at least you're giving credence to people who are selling snake oil for money. I was hoping you might go the next step and test your beliefs, but apparently not.
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