IVX said:
thats interesting.
my Class T amp1 causes massive FM radio trouble for me in my room, NONE of them work in here, on any station when the amp is powered up, but I had passed it off as being due to me having no case on the amp.. I hope it's not residual in the speaker cables.
You can use a common mode choke on it to find out. Is the heatsink grounded or bypassed, if there is a heatsink? It's a wicked transmitter if it isn't.
no its not actually, 'tis in a comprimising setup on a peice of mdf.. no grounding to be seen 😉
probably what it is, cheers 🙂
probably what it is, cheers 🙂
Koolkid is correct, I can't see any references to class N any longer on the Nuforce website. So they must have taken it off if they had it on their site at all.
All in all it is nice when the marketing people don't confuse people by inventing things that don't exist.
Terry🙂
All in all it is nice when the marketing people don't confuse people by inventing things that don't exist.
Terry🙂
TerryG said:
So you're wondering if class N existed? No, (it's class d) but the term itself did and I didn't invent it.
From google search results:
"NuForce
... with NPhysics patented and patent pending modulation techniques), we look forward
to introduce our ultra-efficient, high power (1000W and beyond) Class N Audio ...
www.nuforce.com/us.htm - 5k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages"
Call it a google bug, but I click on the cached page I don't see it there any long either.
You may still find remnance of the term used on their other website for nphysics.com should you highlight the "technology" link and look towards the bottom for "class N topologies whitepaper". Notice it makes no claim to trademark as at least tripath was slick enough to do, but actually calling it a topology.. boooo. I believe the patent used the term once or twice as well. Maybe it helps in the search for prior art when they start looking for class N amps and find nothing.
Interestingly, another thing which seems to have been removed from the nuforce page is their claim for amps that are 1000w and beyond by the end of 2005🙂 They really are having problems.
I'll take this as a welcome sign that they're cleaning up their act with a new approach towards honesty and realism, which is a highly optimistic one for me, and give them much credit for now marketing it differently than the inventor would seemingly have them. Hmmm I also notice their claimed bandwidth seems to be halved from the 100k which nphysics claimed.
Regards,
Chris
mAJORD said:
There is actually a Tripath chip (i forget which) that goes into "AM Mode" for use in car radios. It becomes a low power class AB amp to prevent switching noise screwing with the AM band.
If it's messing with FM, it's most likely the IF section - or maybe it's overloading the front end. A metal case 'round the amp should cure the trouble.
Well I was searching for components and came acrossed the Zetex website. They call their class D stuff class Z. I guess there is only about 19 letter left in the alphabet for amplifier types. I better hurry, I want everyone to know that I reserve X, any unique class D amp that I design will be labeled class X.
TG🙂
TG🙂
classes of amplifiers
"Class" means that there're some similarities among members of the class, yet dissimilarities between those characteristics and characteristics that define another class or other classes.
Whether it's H-bridge or half-bridge or whatever the number of switches is, class-D means switch-mode amplifier. The same transistors can be made to operate in linear mode (class-A) or what have you (push-pull / balanced) or linear and off (class-B or AB)...
Thus class-T or class-Z are just class-D. No self-respecting engineer would call class-T or class-Z amp as such because these are simply class-D. Until universally recognized, class-T/Z are just marketing gimmick, so possibly is class-N.
Class-N amp however is different from class-D amp in the sense mains power is converted into audio power in one step, without intermediary DC bus voltage. The ampliverter or ampverter may belong to that family too. But until they become popular, the need for classifying them into a class whether it's class-N or whatever is not there yet.
Class-N amps however may deserve to be called as such because there're many members in that family of amplifiers or inverters. A class with just one member doesn't make sense. Is there such a thing as a class-action lawsuit with just one plaintif? From the published patent and patent application, it does seem all the members of the class-N amps do the same thing: processing raw power into audio power in one step. Other than that particularity, the members of that class are as varied as there are hundreds of configurations of switch-mode power converters (buck family, boost family, buck-boost family, and Cuk family (? - many consider that a Cuk converter is just a boost-buck converter, i.e. a boost converter followed by a buck converter, while its many embodiments are just transformations by inserting a transformer here and there, just like forward converter is just a buck converter with a transformer and appropriate adaptation to make that species operational.)
So too bad that class-G and class-T (not to mention classses C,E,H etc...)
are already taken
Class-X is not sexy enough. I suggest that if someone needs to define a new class of amplifiers to call it class-XXX. It will sure attract attention.
"Class" means that there're some similarities among members of the class, yet dissimilarities between those characteristics and characteristics that define another class or other classes.
Whether it's H-bridge or half-bridge or whatever the number of switches is, class-D means switch-mode amplifier. The same transistors can be made to operate in linear mode (class-A) or what have you (push-pull / balanced) or linear and off (class-B or AB)...
Thus class-T or class-Z are just class-D. No self-respecting engineer would call class-T or class-Z amp as such because these are simply class-D. Until universally recognized, class-T/Z are just marketing gimmick, so possibly is class-N.
Class-N amp however is different from class-D amp in the sense mains power is converted into audio power in one step, without intermediary DC bus voltage. The ampliverter or ampverter may belong to that family too. But until they become popular, the need for classifying them into a class whether it's class-N or whatever is not there yet.
Class-N amps however may deserve to be called as such because there're many members in that family of amplifiers or inverters. A class with just one member doesn't make sense. Is there such a thing as a class-action lawsuit with just one plaintif? From the published patent and patent application, it does seem all the members of the class-N amps do the same thing: processing raw power into audio power in one step. Other than that particularity, the members of that class are as varied as there are hundreds of configurations of switch-mode power converters (buck family, boost family, buck-boost family, and Cuk family (? - many consider that a Cuk converter is just a boost-buck converter, i.e. a boost converter followed by a buck converter, while its many embodiments are just transformations by inserting a transformer here and there, just like forward converter is just a buck converter with a transformer and appropriate adaptation to make that species operational.)
So too bad that class-G and class-T (not to mention classses C,E,H etc...)
are already taken
Class-X is not sexy enough. I suggest that if someone needs to define a new class of amplifiers to call it class-XXX. It will sure attract attention.
Re: classes of amplifiers
Hi,
I was in total agreement with you until you brought up class N stuff and started contradicting yourself, then it started to seem like marketing.
Regardless of its bus voltage, it still has switches that operate fully on/fully off, and with a filtered output. It can't do its job without that. That doesn't make it different from class D.
You seem to make the argument that Nphysic's inverter be in a class of its own because there's so many power inverters out there, and so it needs a unique identifier? It seems to me that's what a name is for.
It's not so different from all the rest that it qualifies to have a topology named after it, but should that need ever arise, it would be the next letter or some other convention which is based on an agreed standard hopefully by the IEEE or something, not after some late commer amp which is working on principles that have long been in practice (ampliverter), for which the inventor of wants his own initials on.
Unless we want to be fully realistic, and say class UCD, class Zap, class the atrocity I wired with a 555, all being subsets of class D. But then they're not classes if they're a subset of a class. What's wrong with a simple name?
You're from So Cal right? Do you ever run into TranH down there? 😀
Regards,
Chris
koolkid731 said:"Class" means that there're some similarities among members of the class, yet dissimilarities between those characteristics and characteristics that define another class or other classes.
Whether it's H-bridge or half-bridge or whatever the number of switches is, class-D means switch-mode amplifier. The same transistors can be made to operate in linear mode (class-A) or what have you (push-pull / balanced) or linear and off (class-B or AB)...
Thus class-T or class-Z are just class-D. No self-respecting engineer would call class-T or class-Z amp as such because these are simply class-D. Until universally recognized, class-T/Z are just marketing gimmick, so possibly is class-N.
Class-N amp however is different from class-D amp in the sense mains power is converted into audio power in one step, without intermediary DC bus voltage. The ampliverter or ampverter may belong to that family too. But until they become popular, the need for classifying them into a class whether it's class-N or whatever is not there yet.
Class-N amps however may deserve to be called as such because there're many members in that family of amplifiers or inverters. A class with just one member doesn't make sense. Is there such a thing as a class-action lawsuit with just one plaintif? From the published patent and patent application, it does seem all the members of the class-N amps do the same thing: processing raw power into audio power in one step. Other than that particularity, the members of that class are as varied as there are hundreds of configurations of switch-mode power converters (buck family, boost family, buck-boost family, and Cuk family (? - many consider that a Cuk converter is just a boost-buck converter, i.e. a boost converter followed by a buck converter, while its many embodiments are just transformations by inserting a transformer here and there, just like forward converter is just a buck converter with a transformer and appropriate adaptation to make that species operational.)
So too bad that class-G and class-T (not to mention classses C,E,H etc...)
are already taken
Class-X is not sexy enough. I suggest that if someone needs to define a new class of amplifiers to call it class-XXX. It will sure attract attention.
Hi,
I was in total agreement with you until you brought up class N stuff and started contradicting yourself, then it started to seem like marketing.
Regardless of its bus voltage, it still has switches that operate fully on/fully off, and with a filtered output. It can't do its job without that. That doesn't make it different from class D.
You seem to make the argument that Nphysic's inverter be in a class of its own because there's so many power inverters out there, and so it needs a unique identifier? It seems to me that's what a name is for.
It's not so different from all the rest that it qualifies to have a topology named after it, but should that need ever arise, it would be the next letter or some other convention which is based on an agreed standard hopefully by the IEEE or something, not after some late commer amp which is working on principles that have long been in practice (ampliverter), for which the inventor of wants his own initials on.
Unless we want to be fully realistic, and say class UCD, class Zap, class the atrocity I wired with a 555, all being subsets of class D. But then they're not classes if they're a subset of a class. What's wrong with a simple name?
You're from So Cal right? Do you ever run into TranH down there? 😀
Regards,
Chris
Lars Clausen said:[
B&O Icepower also fell into the same pit when they started with the Icepower modules: No no we are not making just Class D, but Class BD (Very special!!!)
See here: http://www.classd.org/oem_products/products/b_o.htm
But then later they came to their senses, and now it's all Class D, like everybody else...... 😉 (Ups: except Tripath of course .. 😀 )
BTW: My own regular toothpaste also doesn't use Triclosan 😀 [/B]
I think I can throw some light on the class BD bit. I worked extensively on high power inverter research using class D back in the 1980's and we formulated (and published) three output stage configurations.
1 class AD - upper and lower halves of output stage switched all the time
2 class BD - upper stage only switches on positive going output, lower stage is off - lower stage switches for negative going output upper stage is off
3 class ABD - upper stage for positive as above, BOTH STAGES SWITCH DURING ZERO CROSSOVERS, lower stage for negative as above.
class AD produces a 2 level output voltage waveform before the output filter (+rail and -rail) whereas BD and ABD produce a three level output (+rail, -rail and ground)
If I dig back into my archives I may be able to find some of the work we published at the time if anyone is interested.
Ampliverter, isn't that simply a Class D amplifier with the isolation transformer on the output, instead of in the power supply?
Does Tranh amps work like this too?
Best regards from
LPhysics 😀
Does Tranh amps work like this too?
Best regards from
LPhysics 😀
Hi Lars,
I think it's more that you use the current through the transformer to modulate power at the output. Neat idea for sure but nothing new at all.
One advtange is that you can do it directly from mains without the use of a conventional PSU. Tranh Nuforce amps seem to include an extra SMPS anyway though, which is just silly in terms of reliability I think.
Cheers,
chris
I think it's more that you use the current through the transformer to modulate power at the output. Neat idea for sure but nothing new at all.
One advtange is that you can do it directly from mains without the use of a conventional PSU. Tranh Nuforce amps seem to include an extra SMPS anyway though, which is just silly in terms of reliability I think.
Cheers,
chris
Hi Lars,
Have you checked any of the Nuforce or Nphysics patent?
Good humor btw, Lphysics.. I can appreciate that 🙂
Have you checked any of the Nuforce or Nphysics patent?
Good humor btw, Lphysics.. I can appreciate that 🙂
NuForce amps are simply and positively class-D. However it may very well be at the top of class given the many rave reviews it received. I own a pair for many months now and they sound fabulous. I also own a pair of UcD180 but have yet to get around to hook them up. I plan to use them for my car.
So this thread should come to an end. Class-T is just class-D. Class-T moniker will most likely disappear with Tripath as their fortune is declining, their share price around 35 cents and getting lower every day.
Analog Device made announcement for their ultra-low distortion class-AD 😀 but has anyone been able to get hold of their IC?
So this thread should come to an end. Class-T is just class-D. Class-T moniker will most likely disappear with Tripath as their fortune is declining, their share price around 35 cents and getting lower every day.
Analog Device made announcement for their ultra-low distortion class-AD 😀 but has anyone been able to get hold of their IC?
koolkid731 said:NuForce amps are simply and positively class-D. However it may very well be at the top of class given the many rave reviews it received. I own a pair for many months now and they sound fabulous. I also own a pair of UcD180 but have yet to get around to hook them up. I plan to use them for my car.
So this thread should come to an end. Class-T is just class-D. Class-T moniker will most likely disappear with Tripath as their fortune is declining, their share price around 35 cents and getting lower every day.
Analog Device made announcement for their ultra-low distortion class-AD 😀 but has anyone been able to get hold of their IC?
When they work they're class d anyway. I wonder since they've changed their minds on what class they are if that invalidates their patent?
That add to which you linked contains some interesting info, like how very holographic they can sound "sometimes". Yeah that's the kind of performance I like. I also noticed the mention of the reviewer wondering if they can built it at a reasonable power level and have it sound the same, even just some of the time. I guess the answer is no because their claims of a 1000W amp released at the end of this year has vanished from their site.
How can you attempt to lend any credibility to an amp here simply based on the number of reviews it's had? Is that the scientific method? Not very convincing anyway.
Yeah Tripath's stocks have plumeted since they went on the market, the fact they'd falsly inflated their worth by lying to their investors and paid off a class action lawsuit probably has alot to do it with it. All the same, they've been in the game awhile and are competitive in probably the biggest part of the market, so they might be able to keep their heads above water.
Based on your posts about Nuforce I'm wondering if you've some affiliation with them that you'd care to let us in on?
Cheers,
Chris
Maybe is not right issue here.
Tripath started class D revolution 7-8 years ago - no doubt about it - right? (I specially not mention about Tact as it is 100% digital amp where Panasonic with Texas Instr. lanched full digital revolution).
Stereophile noticed this and let us know there is new way.
My qestion is - are on the market really better class D amps then Tripath? A lot of mess is around IcePower - probably couse it is ready to sell and easy;-).
Halcro (D+SMPS) or Full digital like Tact (with transformer power)?
Tripath started class D revolution 7-8 years ago - no doubt about it - right? (I specially not mention about Tact as it is 100% digital amp where Panasonic with Texas Instr. lanched full digital revolution).
Stereophile noticed this and let us know there is new way.
My qestion is - are on the market really better class D amps then Tripath? A lot of mess is around IcePower - probably couse it is ready to sell and easy;-).
Halcro (D+SMPS) or Full digital like Tact (with transformer power)?
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