Lots of problems with listening impressions and description thereof are so generic and relative to personal preference standards, it is almost impossible to know what others are talking about. It would be much informative if listening impressions can be presented with the specific music album used.
Re: Re: designs vs. results
How much did your Summas sell for?
No... the BG RD75 is 6' x ~2" wide... here's a pic
and your cost analysis is disingenuous, as I purchased retail (or close to) as opposed to your cost as a mfg....
John L.
gedlee said:
How much did your Summas sell for?
No... the BG RD75 is 6' x ~2" wide... here's a pic
and your cost analysis is disingenuous, as I purchased retail (or close to) as opposed to your cost as a mfg....
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
John L.
Re: Re: Re: designs vs. results
Whether talking purchase cost or selling price is irrelavent as long as we are talking about the same point. You could make a Summa for about $500 in parts - at retail prices - which is what you quoted me in. My point is that the approach that I took was extremely cost effective no matter how you look at it.
If I were to buy parts from China, a Summa could cost as little as $100 in parts (a container of parts FOB Shenzen). The Chinese parts are not as good as say the Italian drivers, of course, but I use better drivers because with assembly here in the US the drivers just end up being a small factor so why not splurg.
auplater said:
Whether talking purchase cost or selling price is irrelavent as long as we are talking about the same point. You could make a Summa for about $500 in parts - at retail prices - which is what you quoted me in. My point is that the approach that I took was extremely cost effective no matter how you look at it.
If I were to buy parts from China, a Summa could cost as little as $100 in parts (a container of parts FOB Shenzen). The Chinese parts are not as good as say the Italian drivers, of course, but I use better drivers because with assembly here in the US the drivers just end up being a small factor so why not splurg.
gedlee said:
thank You 🙂
I understand
Is there no difference between "constant" and "non constant" or is non constant group delay more problematic and more audible?
I ask beacuse You specifically mentioned audibility of VER "due to non constant group delay" in Your "Summa" paper.
Can it be that VER causing "non constant group delay" (like in the case of diffraction on cabinet edges) are becoming unmasked at lower SPLs than VER causing "constant group delay" and in this sense more audible and problematic?
And I agree, this was not really "my statement" but I just asked referring to some popular statements that e.g. "even low order sound like warm or soft" and "higher and odd order sond like grainy and bright" etc.
But I certainly agree with You. I think that those statements are simplifications at best.
O yes - much clearer, especially as to nonlinear character of those "VER distortions"
thank You so much for Your response 🙂
best,
graaf
DVD Audio - Denon DVD-3800BDCI
Sorry to digress, but check out the new Denon DVD-3800BDCI Blu-ray player. It's an impressive unit that really sounds great. Video quality is what most people buy it for but I think audiophiles will appreciate it too. Plays Blu-Ray, DVD and audio CD.
Just thought this might be of interest here. Not really a "problem with high-fidelity", but if anyone is looking for a good player, I've been very impressed with this unit.
gedlee said:
Sorry to digress, but check out the new Denon DVD-3800BDCI Blu-ray player. It's an impressive unit that really sounds great. Video quality is what most people buy it for but I think audiophiles will appreciate it too. Plays Blu-Ray, DVD and audio CD.
Just thought this might be of interest here. Not really a "problem with high-fidelity", but if anyone is looking for a good player, I've been very impressed with this unit.
graaf said:
I see where that came from now. I was trying to express that there is a group delay caused by the sound propagation from the source to the listener, which is, of course, not an audible problem. Once we take that out, the remaining group delay would be a result of diffraction, or VER, etc. So the "non-constant" should be ignored once you take out the "time of flight" delay.
I guess I should have used the phrase "excess group delay".
Re: Re: Re: Re: designs vs. results
Some of us have to meet other constraints beyond the "butt ugly PA look".. no matter how good it sounds..WAF and all that...😀
"The GedLee room featured their Summa loudspeaker. The Summa resembled a large version of a portable PA system speaker or a very large monitor speaker. The 15�� driver is paired with an unusual looking foam hemisphere over the upper-frequency driver. In my listening, I felt it lacked energy and excitement."
John L.
http://www.bradjudy.com/audioblog/rmaf3/
gedlee said:
Some of us have to meet other constraints beyond the "butt ugly PA look".. no matter how good it sounds..WAF and all that...😀
"The GedLee room featured their Summa loudspeaker. The Summa resembled a large version of a portable PA system speaker or a very large monitor speaker. The 15�� driver is paired with an unusual looking foam hemisphere over the upper-frequency driver. In my listening, I felt it lacked energy and excitement."
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
John L.
http://www.bradjudy.com/audioblog/rmaf3/
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: designs vs. results
"energy and excitement" or "coloration and resonances"? 😉
for many Quad ESL and many more are also "boring", "uninvolving" and lacking in "energy and excitement" 😉
it is all very subjective, very relative
best,
graaf
auplater said:
"energy and excitement" or "coloration and resonances"? 😉
for many Quad ESL and many more are also "boring", "uninvolving" and lacking in "energy and excitement" 😉
it is all very subjective, very relative
best,
graaf
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: designs vs. results
I avoided personal criticism of your speakers, but I could have. Your post was in bad taste.
auplater said:
I avoided personal criticism of your speakers, but I could have. Your post was in bad taste.
For me current Summa look is perfect, high tech and elegant - like Leica R8/9 in single reflex camera category. We have a lot of kitsch on the market not to mention DIY scene.
Earl, give us an apples-to-apples comparison for once. When pressed by Peter, you compared your $18 compression driver to a $65 tweeter, but failed to include the cost of the horn. And again this time, the $500 parts cost doesn't include the cost of the horn. I vaguely recall you saying in 2004 that each horn cost well over $500 to manufacture when the speakers were selling for $9,000.
When comparing just the parts cost for a DIY build of your speaker to John L's, did you include in the $500 parts cost the precision tooling to make the mold for the most critical component, the horn?
Please correct me if my recollection is wrong about the prices in 2004, but then also provide accurate information for current costs. Instead of pricing, your web site just says they're not being manufactured any more.
- Eric
When comparing just the parts cost for a DIY build of your speaker to John L's, did you include in the $500 parts cost the precision tooling to make the mold for the most critical component, the horn?
Please correct me if my recollection is wrong about the prices in 2004, but then also provide accurate information for current costs. Instead of pricing, your web site just says they're not being manufactured any more.
- Eric
Re: OB trap
First, because an open baffle doesn't have the pressure field from the back wave inside the box, the panels are subjected to much less force. Second, there's no reason that rigid and/or damped panels and constrained layer damping and corner bracing can't be used with an open baffle. If you're just talking about a big floppy rectangular 1/2" plywood baffle, there would be problems.
- Eric
kstrain said:
First, because an open baffle doesn't have the pressure field from the back wave inside the box, the panels are subjected to much less force. Second, there's no reason that rigid and/or damped panels and constrained layer damping and corner bracing can't be used with an open baffle. If you're just talking about a big floppy rectangular 1/2" plywood baffle, there would be problems.
If by "cavity behind the drivers" you mean the space between the cone and basket, this acts as a filter, not a resonator. If you mean the space between the drivers and the wings/H-frame of a folded baffle, the quarter wave resonance can be reduced by shaping the edges, which is one reason the Orion's have such odd shaped side panels.
- Eric
Re: Re: OB trap
The panels of an assembled Orion, built as per linkwitz instructions, vibrate a fair bit. At the UK DIY meet last year, I put my hand on an Orion built by Vikash. It was noticeably more alive than what I'm used to. Others said a similar thing too.
Not sure how much this affects sound quality, if it all, but it does back up what a couple of others have been saying.
Eric Weitzman said:
The panels of an assembled Orion, built as per linkwitz instructions, vibrate a fair bit. At the UK DIY meet last year, I put my hand on an Orion built by Vikash. It was noticeably more alive than what I'm used to. Others said a similar thing too.
Not sure how much this affects sound quality, if it all, but it does back up what a couple of others have been saying.
To the three of you who have posted about your (subjective) negative reaction to dipole bass reproduction, I can only hope you get to listen to a proper implementation some day.
When a half dozen of my audio buddies and I visited Linkwitz, we were stymied in our attempts to describe the character of the bass that we found so compelling. A week later, someone finally put their finger on it: everything (classical) sounded like it would have sounded in the symphony hall. The dozen or so people who have heard my set and built their own, and the other dozen with plans to do so, are good "subjective" positives too.
So that about wraps it up. I'm still debating with myself if I should post my reply to Earl's very personal attacks in post #279. So much for Earl, our magnet for criticism who demands respectful debate.
- Eric
When a half dozen of my audio buddies and I visited Linkwitz, we were stymied in our attempts to describe the character of the bass that we found so compelling. A week later, someone finally put their finger on it: everything (classical) sounded like it would have sounded in the symphony hall. The dozen or so people who have heard my set and built their own, and the other dozen with plans to do so, are good "subjective" positives too.
So that about wraps it up. I'm still debating with myself if I should post my reply to Earl's very personal attacks in post #279. So much for Earl, our magnet for criticism who demands respectful debate.
- Eric
No one said they sounded bad, so not sure why your defending the design on those grounds.
A number of us heard the Orion last year and nobody said anything other than than they were good. The bass was a bit out of shape but they were in a poor acoustic space so that aspect was difficult to assess. I hope to hear them in more ideal circumstances in the future.
A number of us heard the Orion last year and nobody said anything other than than they were good. The bass was a bit out of shape but they were in a poor acoustic space so that aspect was difficult to assess. I hope to hear them in more ideal circumstances in the future.
Re: Re: Re: OB trap
I'd like to break this down to be completely clear: the entire Orion rocks back and forth in reaction to the woofers. (In spite of this, Linkwitz advises *against* spiking them down.) The panels themselves are very non-resonant. If the midrange is mounted to the baffle, the baffle is to be constructed using CLD to minimize a 400Hz (IIRC) resonance. If the midrange is magnet mounted from the rear, the baffle can be made from a single piece as it won't be subjected to the resonant frequency from the midrange driver. There's a foam seal that prevents air leakage when magnet mounting. The foam is only partially compressed to avoid mechanical coupling.
I don't doubt you felt the rocking as "panels ... vibrat[ing] a fair bit." But if you put your hand on the front baffle while they weren't rocking, I think you'd have felt nothing or very little.
This rocking opens the can of worms of whether you believe doppler distortion is real and/or audible at these magnitudes, and is worth the tradeoffs of coupling the speaker to the floor. I don't know his reasoning, but I trust Linkwitz' measurements and conclusions about this.
- Eric
ShinOBIWAN said:
I'd like to break this down to be completely clear: the entire Orion rocks back and forth in reaction to the woofers. (In spite of this, Linkwitz advises *against* spiking them down.) The panels themselves are very non-resonant. If the midrange is mounted to the baffle, the baffle is to be constructed using CLD to minimize a 400Hz (IIRC) resonance. If the midrange is magnet mounted from the rear, the baffle can be made from a single piece as it won't be subjected to the resonant frequency from the midrange driver. There's a foam seal that prevents air leakage when magnet mounting. The foam is only partially compressed to avoid mechanical coupling.
I don't doubt you felt the rocking as "panels ... vibrat[ing] a fair bit." But if you put your hand on the front baffle while they weren't rocking, I think you'd have felt nothing or very little.
This rocking opens the can of worms of whether you believe doppler distortion is real and/or audible at these magnitudes, and is worth the tradeoffs of coupling the speaker to the floor. I don't know his reasoning, but I trust Linkwitz' measurements and conclusions about this.
- Eric
ShinOBIWAN said:
ShinOBIWAN, I suppose you're addressing me?...
I didn't actually say anyone said they (Orions or OB) sounded "bad". I was replying the series of messages on page 12 from MaVo, Brett, and kstrain who all reported, as I wrote, "(subjective) negative reaction
I do hope they have the chance to experience good implementations, Orion or otherwise.
- Eric
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