Hello Eric
How loud were you playing them?? Take a look on the Linkwitz site. Your talking the Orion with the Thor subs??
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/thor_splmax.htm
Those max SPL's are at 1 meter, Figure around 100db/103 max at around 60hz and it drops off from there. That's not high SPL for bass especially below 40hz.
Rob🙂
How loud were you playing them?? Take a look on the Linkwitz site. Your talking the Orion with the Thor subs??
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/thor_splmax.htm
Those max SPL's are at 1 meter, Figure around 100db/103 max at around 60hz and it drops off from there. That's not high SPL for bass especially below 40hz.
Rob🙂
Robh3606 said:
Hi there,
i think this discussion leads towards the problem of building
subwoofers capable of high SPL.
Is that a problem ?
Even if you prefer dipoles, you can achieve that.
Displace enough air at enough distance and thats it.
Eric Weitzman said:
Oh come on. These systems use a dome tweeter with a 90 dB 1w/1m sensitivity. That means out at 3m you get 80 dB with 1w. To hit a peak of 110 dB at the listening location from one channel you'd need a peak of about 1kw (30 dB of gain). That would destroy one of those tweeters. The situation is similar with the rest of the drivers. Even if you are talking about somewhat lower full band SPL, past a handfull of rms watts per driver and you're looking at nonnegligible power compression. You can't get around that issue with inefficient drivers that have small voice coils.
Rybaudio said:
@Rybaudio
I see I need to clarify. My stated SPL was 110dbC. At both concerts that I measured before comparing to home, I got 105-110dbC peaks and A scale peaks roughly 10db lower. Keep in mind where the energy in music lies: it's mostly down low. 110db generated by a tweeter is kind of excessive and would probably drill a hole through your skull. Though I could clip 60w amps on the mids and woofers, I could never clip the tweeter amps (see below).
The figures you gave are for one tweeter. A pair of Orion++ has four, though the back are run 1-2db lower in level than the front. So we only need 250w (or a bit more to account for longer rear tweeter path lengths) per tweeter to get 110db. But that's really quite excessive.
What I found driving my Orions with 60w amps before adding a sub and bigger amps was that the bass amp would clip when playing music with sub-30Hz bass well below 95dbC. The distortion would be very brief and not too obvious but the dipole bass magic illusion thing wouldn't be there when clipping. There was some music that I could play at similar levels with sufficient midrange energy to clip the 60w amps at approx 100dbA levels. It wasn't nice, but it was hard to find music that would do this. I think it was a Bjork album... I was never able to play the system loud enough to clip the tweeter amps and bear to stay in the room, even with earplugs.
But the mid drivers can handle 120w continuous/300w peak power levels. Similarly, the tweeters can handle 90/200w. The Orion++ has four tweeters and two midranges and in my system each has its own 150w amp (1% THD, 0.1% at 140w). The tweeters only have available about half your estimated 1kw, but we don't need 110db from the tweeters unless you're looking for, say, 130dbC from the entire system? I thought we were talking about home hifi, not PA systems... Now perhaps you can see that the math works out and jives with what I've measured and experienced.
I don't know the maximum amount of power I've put into the drivers when the system is cranked up. I can't measure instantaneous voltages. But the amps I'm using have fans to assist cooling, and I don't know what they sound like because they've never turned on. There are 600w available for the four tweeters, 300w for the two midrange drivers, and 800w (4x200w) for the four woofers. The woofers don't bottom out at the 50Hz crossover frequency with 200w even with 6db/octave dipole EQ. I don't recall if they're current or voltage limited at 50Hz with my amps, but they're fortunately not excursion limited.
Compression drivers running at fractions of a watt have their virtues: I was into flea powered amps and horns for about a decade. I can't provide any figures to contradict what you're saying, but I know that Linkwitz' fundamental criteria for driver selection are low non-linear distortion and low stored energy. The high cost of the drivers is probably buying engineering that deals with, among other things, very good heat dissipation. All I can really tell you is that the proof is in the listening.
@Robh3606
I'm not using Thors. But if I was, add some SPL for corner loading to what you're reading on his site.
I built a sealed sub around a TC Sounds 15" OEM driver that John Janowitz was selling to the DIY community around five years ago. It's in a 160 liter sealed box with an approx. 800w amp (bridged Adcom GFP-550). This is all firing into a good sized space, around 6-10000 cubic feet depending on what parts are considered acoustically of a piece. The roof creaks (very low pitch, continuous membrane post & beam construction) and the plate glass windows (7x10, 7x12) buzz when it's first cranked up. A couple of times a year I chase down and silence as many rattles and buzzes in the house as I can.
Most of the time I listen with dbC peaks of no more than 95db so please don't discount my observations as those of a partially deaf audiophool. But some music just demands more juice.
- Eric
Reality encompasses the problems with compression drivers, does it not? Audible resonance and ultrasonic resonance that modulates into the audible, chamber resonances, compression chamber distortion, path length/phase problems, and so on. I'd like to read this some day: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=7635Magnetar said:
Robh3606 should be familiar with this too: http://apollo.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16193
After living with horns for years, my opinion was somewhat like Steve Schell's and others in that thread: this was as good as it gets! The only thing I caused me apprehension about going to the Orions was loss of the clean transients/dynamics/jump factor that horns give. I am 100% convinced that the Orions do all these things horns do so well -- minus the peaky response (among other things). Visitors are always welcome to hear for themselves..
- Eric
Eric Weitzman said:
You probably should that paper since Regina failed to find a statistically valid relationship between audiblity and distortion level.
While on the other hand in "Subjective Testing of Compression Drivers", JAES Volume 53 Issue 12 pp. 1152-1157; December 2005 the authors showed that for 25 blind listeners no one could statistically detect any nonlinear distortion in the compression driver.
If you are going to quote real data (which appears to be rare), its wise to quote something that supports your thesis.
How do blind people know what non-linear distortion of Compression Drivers sounds like?gedlee said:
"After living with horns for years, my opinion was somewhat like Steve Schell's and others in that thread: this was as good as it gets! The only thing I caused me apprehension about going to the Orions was loss of the clean transients/dynamics/jump factor that horns give. I am 100% convinced that the Orions do all these things horns do so well -- minus the peaky response (among other things). Visitors are always welcome to hear for themselves.."
Hello Eric
I think well designed systems be it OB, Reflex,TL or IB can all sound good if executed properly. I see the prime advantage of a compression driver being the high efficiency, directivity control and power handling compared to a conventional dome tweeter.
I have heard some great sounding systems using all dynamic, dynamic and compression drivers and all horn. I have an all dynamic system with dome mid ranges and tweeters that sounds great at home listening levels even when compared to a larger compression driver system so I can appreciate where your coming from. I wouldn't push it into an SPL contest with the larger system though.
If you ever go back take a look into the newer waveguides and drivers. They make for much smoother combinations than their older cousins.
The bottom line is your happy with the move and that is really all that counts.
Rob🙂
Hello Eric
I think well designed systems be it OB, Reflex,TL or IB can all sound good if executed properly. I see the prime advantage of a compression driver being the high efficiency, directivity control and power handling compared to a conventional dome tweeter.
I have heard some great sounding systems using all dynamic, dynamic and compression drivers and all horn. I have an all dynamic system with dome mid ranges and tweeters that sounds great at home listening levels even when compared to a larger compression driver system so I can appreciate where your coming from. I wouldn't push it into an SPL contest with the larger system though.
If you ever go back take a look into the newer waveguides and drivers. They make for much smoother combinations than their older cousins.
The bottom line is your happy with the move and that is really all that counts.
Rob🙂
Attachments
Looks like the driver set from the old JBL XPL 200
I nearly ended up with a pair of those when I was in Europe but when I went to pick them up they had two lefts and I wanted a correct mirror imaged set...I had the 160s for about a year before I decided to upgrade but I sold them before I learned the 200s were not a true set, ended up coming back to the states with KEF 104/2s.
I nearly ended up with a pair of those when I was in Europe but when I went to pick them up they had two lefts and I wanted a correct mirror imaged set...I had the 160s for about a year before I decided to upgrade but I sold them before I learned the 200s were not a true set, ended up coming back to the states with KEF 104/2s.
"Looks like the driver set from the old JBL XPL 200"
Good eye! That's exactly what they are. How do you like the 104's??
Rob🙂
Good eye! That's exactly what they are. How do you like the 104's??
Rob🙂
Robh3606 said:
I agree with you about an SPL contest. But this thread is about our experiences with home hifi, and I've pushed my home hifi to live/stadium levels and got better-than-live results. As I wrote, it's easier to do this in a living room with dipoles than in a 25,000 seat amphitheatre where dipoles are obviously impractical.
But we haven't agreed on what is "high SPL". My take is that a two hour concert with 110dbC and 100dbA peaks is high enough. I don't care if a pair of horn stacks in my living room could reproduce the roar of the space shuttle's engines... I know a guy who can get 120dbC (IIRC) at 15Hz with six 30" EV drivers in a built-in concrete bunker IB with JBL horns on top. Though impressive in the bass (his primary goal), the system doesn't present most music too realistically. See http://www.dougronald.com/wall_of_sound.htm. Doug lives about two miles from me.
Sorry to digress, back to the point: My Orion++ system can hit my target at home cleaner than horns in a PA system live, so my search is over. Wasn't "getting there" the thrust of this thread to begin with?
I'm always open to new experiences and given the opportunity will certainly listen. In spite of his attitude, I'd even jump at the chance to listen to Earl's waveguides.
- Eric
In response to the original question, if you’re that obsessed with anything, audio or otherwise, you probably have bigger problems than just the hobby.
I don't take any of this too seriously. We are just playing back sounds and trying to do it well. It doesn't make much sense to let that dominate your life. There are more important things like relationships and family. If you have a problem with audio get away from it completely. If you cannot control yourself drop the hobby all together and bring some balance to your life.
In terms of what people like, it is really their prerogative to like what they like. In terms of there being an objective standard, which everyone should adhere to, there just isn't. As engineers it is a desirable thing to pursue but the subjective nature of human experience is fundamentally troublesome to quantify in a meaningful way for any one individual.
Just my opinion...
I don't take any of this too seriously. We are just playing back sounds and trying to do it well. It doesn't make much sense to let that dominate your life. There are more important things like relationships and family. If you have a problem with audio get away from it completely. If you cannot control yourself drop the hobby all together and bring some balance to your life.
In terms of what people like, it is really their prerogative to like what they like. In terms of there being an objective standard, which everyone should adhere to, there just isn't. As engineers it is a desirable thing to pursue but the subjective nature of human experience is fundamentally troublesome to quantify in a meaningful way for any one individual.
Just my opinion...
I agree with you Kevin - you're saying what I was trying to in Post #28. There is nothing wrong with the hobby itself, but maybe with some hobbyists who have become obsessed with perfection and continue to build only for that persuit, but derive little satisfaction from any of the results.
Unfortunately the thread has gotten away from the original subject matter and moved into arguments about the best formats, drivers, designs, etc. which leads to well, just more arguments. Maybe THIS is what's wrong with Hi Fi!
Unfortunately the thread has gotten away from the original subject matter and moved into arguments about the best formats, drivers, designs, etc. which leads to well, just more arguments. Maybe THIS is what's wrong with Hi Fi!
Kevin Haskins said:
I know that I shouldn't be here, because, you see, this isn't just a hobby with me. Its what I do for a living and what I have dedicated my life to. Now if you are saying that I am wasting my life, well that too is subjective. But I see the drudgery of doing something in your life - called a job - that is not stimulating, far worse than getting pasionate about audio. But thats me, I guess.
This is a hobiest site, and I appreciate that, because you see, I'm a hobbiest too. Listening to music is not required in professional audio, but since I do listen to a lot of music I guess youd have to say that it was my hobby.
And yes "the subjective nature of human experience is fundamentally troublesome to quantify " but is anything worth doing in life ever easy? And the goal of objective quantification of audio is possible, although many will disagree.
So as a professional perhaps I should not bother with this site, but I do enjoy the discussions (usually) and just maybe I can help somebody out.
Well.... I'd say knock yourself out. But at the end of the day it is just a loudspeaker and noise.
I do it for a living too and it beats the hell out of working for the man but a lot of the things we nit-pick around about are not all that important in the grand scheme of things.
If all of us could get together and have a beer most of the bickering wouldn't happen. Most of the DIY meetings we have are a blast and some of the people that I think are the biggest dicks on the forums end up being the nicest guys.
My only suggestion is that for MOST of the people participating in forums this is a hobby. For some of us it is a hobby AND a business. Either way, if it consumes you to the point of unhealthy behavior the problem probably isn't with high-end audio, it is with yourself.
I do it for a living too and it beats the hell out of working for the man but a lot of the things we nit-pick around about are not all that important in the grand scheme of things.
If all of us could get together and have a beer most of the bickering wouldn't happen. Most of the DIY meetings we have are a blast and some of the people that I think are the biggest dicks on the forums end up being the nicest guys.
My only suggestion is that for MOST of the people participating in forums this is a hobby. For some of us it is a hobby AND a business. Either way, if it consumes you to the point of unhealthy behavior the problem probably isn't with high-end audio, it is with yourself.
Kevin Haskins said:
Here here! (or is that hear hear?) With the two of us having first hand experience, I couldn't agree more. Let's do it again. 🙂
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