The "economies of scale" argument I was putting forth was with regard to absurd pricing structures on so-called HiFi "reference" products, and in particular those that use available parts. (..not with regard to value oriented products or even mid "hi-fi" products.) These overpriced offerings were then contrasted to our own DIY expenses (particularly price and time), to perhaps "dispel" the notion that we are spending too much ( - to ourselves, not neccesarily to others.. though I do like the "bars & pub thing").
For example, I don't think anyone goes into this hobby to create a pair of loudspeakers that cost US $199 - for half that amount. This kind of thinking is self-defeating. While it may well be capable to acomplish this - who would want to? Instead most are looking to reproduce something that represents genuine VALUE (..which isn't soley based on price).
From a pricing perspective the goal is often to create something that would cost FAR more than they would (or could) willingly spend. Consider the .49 cent driver based array that leadbelly mentioned. In some respects such an array may well trounce most commercial products at any price (9db peak, comb filtering and all). In other respects (particularly freq. linearity as leadbelly mentioned), such a design will be flawed (seriously even), but ask yourself if the flaw can be effectivly overcome either in the loudspeaker itself or in a system context? Consider that decent eq.s are available (at low and VERY low prices) that can often provide better in-room responses than many users (DIY or not) could ever hope to attain. (..and typically the sonic penalty for the use of such is small in relation to the overall gain.) Furthermore, this is only one example of an extreme low-cost solution, doubtless there are more DIY'ers here interested in more expensive solutions.
As far as Fit'n'finish is concerned - I think that it is just a matter of "sloth" why most DIY efforts are not better looking. The information is readily available for great finishes (either with wood, laminate, or paint), and this is one area where "sub contracting" often makes sense.
Historical foot note:
Perhaps the genesis* of this absurdity (with loudspeakers), was started by Wilson Audio's Grand SLAMM (for around 80k) at a time when their WATT/Puppy was a little over 13k. Parts value for the speaker could not have been more than 4k (proably under 3k considering OEM discounts). With this design (and similarly the ESP loudspeaker that I mentioned originally), the box (or boxes) do NOT account for the massivly enhanced pricing structure.
*by "genesis" I mean catalyst. Sure there were other more expensive speakers at the time, (the Wilson WHAMM was one), but untill the Grand SLAMM was offerred for sale, speakers over the 15k mark were VERY few and far between and virtually all that were included parts that were NOT readily available (..the Infinity IRS V was perhaps the most well known of these).
For example, I don't think anyone goes into this hobby to create a pair of loudspeakers that cost US $199 - for half that amount. This kind of thinking is self-defeating. While it may well be capable to acomplish this - who would want to? Instead most are looking to reproduce something that represents genuine VALUE (..which isn't soley based on price).
From a pricing perspective the goal is often to create something that would cost FAR more than they would (or could) willingly spend. Consider the .49 cent driver based array that leadbelly mentioned. In some respects such an array may well trounce most commercial products at any price (9db peak, comb filtering and all). In other respects (particularly freq. linearity as leadbelly mentioned), such a design will be flawed (seriously even), but ask yourself if the flaw can be effectivly overcome either in the loudspeaker itself or in a system context? Consider that decent eq.s are available (at low and VERY low prices) that can often provide better in-room responses than many users (DIY or not) could ever hope to attain. (..and typically the sonic penalty for the use of such is small in relation to the overall gain.) Furthermore, this is only one example of an extreme low-cost solution, doubtless there are more DIY'ers here interested in more expensive solutions.
As far as Fit'n'finish is concerned - I think that it is just a matter of "sloth" why most DIY efforts are not better looking. The information is readily available for great finishes (either with wood, laminate, or paint), and this is one area where "sub contracting" often makes sense.
Historical foot note:
Perhaps the genesis* of this absurdity (with loudspeakers), was started by Wilson Audio's Grand SLAMM (for around 80k) at a time when their WATT/Puppy was a little over 13k. Parts value for the speaker could not have been more than 4k (proably under 3k considering OEM discounts). With this design (and similarly the ESP loudspeaker that I mentioned originally), the box (or boxes) do NOT account for the massivly enhanced pricing structure.
*by "genesis" I mean catalyst. Sure there were other more expensive speakers at the time, (the Wilson WHAMM was one), but untill the Grand SLAMM was offerred for sale, speakers over the 15k mark were VERY few and far between and virtually all that were included parts that were NOT readily available (..the Infinity IRS V was perhaps the most well known of these).
Scott
Your points are valid. But you still seem to live in a dream world. Sure, If someone built a $0.49 line array and bought a used graphic eq or whatever to fix the problems maybe they would have something special. But they don't. They run the line array straight up and then deluge us with posts about how they made something that "sounds better than commercial speakers costing $xxxx". I might puke if I read that phrase used on this forum again. Same with finishes. What is the point of saying "well they could put a really nice finish on if they wanted to...."
Anyway, don't anybody take my comments too harshly, I mean I'm here on this forum and I slap speakers together too, I just don't call my Miller Lite champagne!
(that was a joke, I only drink dark beers)
Your points are valid. But you still seem to live in a dream world. Sure, If someone built a $0.49 line array and bought a used graphic eq or whatever to fix the problems maybe they would have something special. But they don't. They run the line array straight up and then deluge us with posts about how they made something that "sounds better than commercial speakers costing $xxxx". I might puke if I read that phrase used on this forum again. Same with finishes. What is the point of saying "well they could put a really nice finish on if they wanted to...."
Anyway, don't anybody take my comments too harshly, I mean I'm here on this forum and I slap speakers together too, I just don't call my Miller Lite champagne!
(that was a joke, I only drink dark beers)leadbelly said:Scott
Your points are valid. But you still seem to live in a dream world. Sure, If someone built a $0.49 line array and bought a used graphic eq or whatever to fix the problems maybe they would have something special. But they don't. They run the line array straight up and then deluge us with posts about how they made something that "sounds better than commercial speakers costing $xxxx". I might puke if I read that phrase used on this forum again. Same with finishes. What is the point of saying "well they could put a really nice finish on if they wanted to...."
Anyway, don't anybody take my comments too harshly, I mean I'm here on this forum and I slap speakers together too, I just don't call my Miller Lite champagne!
dream world?
Come, now. As a percentage of posts (here), such a scenario is relativly rare. No, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but neither is it as pervasive as to use the word "deluge" (..not by ANY stretch of the imagination).
Additionally (as I mentioned earlier), perhaps in several aspects it does sound better than $xxxx. Better overall than $xxxx? Even that is a possibility, afterall there is a LOT more to speaker design than a linear response (..I will admit however that this is a far greater "stretch"). Having experimented with cheap line arrays myself I can tell you that it isn't nearly the "stretch" you might think it is.. (and no, I haven't posted about it anymore than I have now.)
and again, it isn't really the point of this thread.
EDIT:
The point of "they could put a good finish on their design" was to refute the fact that a commercial level of fit and finish is unobtainable as cowanrg suggested.
Scott has nailed it pretty much on the head when he said sloth. I can get industry level of fit and finish. The fit is the easiest pat the finish takes a lot of TIME and effort to accomplish.
My speakers are generally a work in progress so I dont see the point of putting pretty veneers on them. Ok my main panels which are 30*30cm open baffle with a w15cy and ss97 slapped in them have nice birds eye maple. But the fact is unless I know im pleased with a design and am never (5years+) going to want to change anything I am not going to put in this time and effort to make it look pretty.
My speakers are generally a work in progress so I dont see the point of putting pretty veneers on them. Ok my main panels which are 30*30cm open baffle with a w15cy and ss97 slapped in them have nice birds eye maple. But the fact is unless I know im pleased with a design and am never (5years+) going to want to change anything I am not going to put in this time and effort to make it look pretty.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Price of NON-DIY..
I believe that I have designed and built some of the cheapest DIY speakers in the Pacific NW and with the possible exception of Dapper Dave of Planet 10, I don't think that anyone has ever "lowballed" me for sound quality. Now, that may sound like bragging, but I'll even go further and say it's possible to actually get better sound than some of the most expensive speakers anywhere for pennies (or even less!) on the dollar!
Best Regards,
TerryO
leadbelly said:
OK, I capitulate, I won't poke fun at the cheap line arrays anymore. If it turns your crank, more power to ya.
I believe that I have designed and built some of the cheapest DIY speakers in the Pacific NW and with the possible exception of Dapper Dave of Planet 10, I don't think that anyone has ever "lowballed" me for sound quality. Now, that may sound like bragging, but I'll even go further and say it's possible to actually get better sound than some of the most expensive speakers anywhere for pennies (or even less!) on the dollar!
Best Regards,
TerryO
The guy that turned me onto high end audio had an all Goldmund system including (I believe) The Epilogue speakers (looking at their current web page, the speakers have 4 'modules' though I seem to recall 5). I was as much turned on by the looks and the cost itself as the acutual sound. He recommended a couple stores (in the Dallas area) and I was most attracted to Thiel speakers.
Flash forward many years, having heard some amazing speakers (Sonus Fabers, Apogees, many high end B&Ws and many others) we purchased a pair of Apogee Centaurus Majors for $1,200. Next pair of speakers were $1,050 and nearly a pair of von Schweikerts for $1,400. I think I just have something in me that can't quite get past the ~$2,000 price point.
Two of the best sytems I've ever heard were Apogee Divas in a huge purpose-built room with probably $3,000 in acoustical treatments and the B&W Bowers Silver Signatures (or whatever they are called) but I would have to have a LOT of money to be able to justify something like that. On the other hand, my DIY $200-ish Eton 2 ways (bought already build) have given me plenty of enjoyment. Hell, if these were retail, the veneer alone with a 300% markup would probably put the speakers over $1,000.
I don't know... I don't knock the high end market because it brings interest to our endeavors. I like visiting two shops in particular. I love looking at the latest $5,000+ speaker cables hooked to $3,500 speakers. I greatly enjoy the experience though I always chuckle to myself.
Flash forward many years, having heard some amazing speakers (Sonus Fabers, Apogees, many high end B&Ws and many others) we purchased a pair of Apogee Centaurus Majors for $1,200. Next pair of speakers were $1,050 and nearly a pair of von Schweikerts for $1,400. I think I just have something in me that can't quite get past the ~$2,000 price point.
Two of the best sytems I've ever heard were Apogee Divas in a huge purpose-built room with probably $3,000 in acoustical treatments and the B&W Bowers Silver Signatures (or whatever they are called) but I would have to have a LOT of money to be able to justify something like that. On the other hand, my DIY $200-ish Eton 2 ways (bought already build) have given me plenty of enjoyment. Hell, if these were retail, the veneer alone with a 300% markup would probably put the speakers over $1,000.
I don't know... I don't knock the high end market because it brings interest to our endeavors. I like visiting two shops in particular. I love looking at the latest $5,000+ speaker cables hooked to $3,500 speakers. I greatly enjoy the experience though I always chuckle to myself.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Price of NON-DIY..
I believe your statement depends greatly on what sound quality attributes you value. I've never heard a complete DIY effort (reverse engineering a commercial design doesn't count) with the top to bottom coherence and refinement of the few commercial speakers that excel in these areas. If you judge loudspeakers by their weaknesses rather than their strengths, suddenly things become a lot more difficult for the DIYer.
TerryO said:
I believe your statement depends greatly on what sound quality attributes you value. I've never heard a complete DIY effort (reverse engineering a commercial design doesn't count) with the top to bottom coherence and refinement of the few commercial speakers that excel in these areas. If you judge loudspeakers by their weaknesses rather than their strengths, suddenly things become a lot more difficult for the DIYer.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Price of NON-DIY..
Jeff,
I agree with the last part of your statement. However, I have yet to hear a speaker that did it all, although a very few come pretty close. The owner of this system;
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm
listened to my focused array speakers at one of our Stereo Club meetings and stated,
"Wow! I don't know if these are better than my speakers, but they cost 1/2000th as much."
The whole point is that you can get excellent results with a small outlay of money. The arrays were voted "best midrange" at the RAW event a couple of years ago and took the much coveted "Kowtow" award at the last VSAC. Not too bad for a $35.00 (USD) total outlay. They're ugly and need bass reinforcement, but I think that with an additional $65 to $70 dollars these problems can be solved.
Best Regards,
TerryO
jeff mai said:
Jeff,
I agree with the last part of your statement. However, I have yet to hear a speaker that did it all, although a very few come pretty close. The owner of this system;
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm
listened to my focused array speakers at one of our Stereo Club meetings and stated,
"Wow! I don't know if these are better than my speakers, but they cost 1/2000th as much."
The whole point is that you can get excellent results with a small outlay of money. The arrays were voted "best midrange" at the RAW event a couple of years ago and took the much coveted "Kowtow" award at the last VSAC. Not too bad for a $35.00 (USD) total outlay. They're ugly and need bass reinforcement, but I think that with an additional $65 to $70 dollars these problems can be solved.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Another point to remember in favor of commercial speakers...
High-end companies like Vandersten, B&W, Von Schweikerts and others match large sets of drivers for sonic properties and sell them in matched sets.
Kindof like the mosfet and tube matching that is needed in amp building.
I've built really nice speakers, but cannot match the nth detail I get from reasonable "autophile" Class A rated speakers.
Just my $.02,
-David
High-end companies like Vandersten, B&W, Von Schweikerts and others match large sets of drivers for sonic properties and sell them in matched sets.
Kindof like the mosfet and tube matching that is needed in amp building.
I've built really nice speakers, but cannot match the nth detail I get from reasonable "autophile" Class A rated speakers.
Just my $.02,
-David
cratz2 said:
To me the fully configured outrageously expensive Goldmund Epilouge speakers look OK, but their design was based on one of my all-time favorite (looking) loudspeakers, (which were asthetically designed by an actual artist), The APOLOGUE.
The Apologue was around 50k retail. The fully configured Epilouge is considerably more expensive (while far less complex to build).
(btw, the picture really doesn't give you a hint of its real size)
Attachments
Yup... those are the ones he had... His had a custom refinished finish (not from Goldmund but bought from Goldmund then refinished to exactly match his exotic wood floors.
Still... I highly doubt I could ever spend that kind of money on speakers. I'm in no way a bleeding heart type, but I'd have to personally go out and feed 1,000 kids before I could enjoy them.
Still... I highly doubt I could ever spend that kind of money on speakers. I'm in no way a bleeding heart type, but I'd have to personally go out and feed 1,000 kids before I could enjoy them.
Kind of hard to give an honest opinion of them as they were literally the first speakers I ever heard that cost more than ~$1,000. Obviously they sounded pretty amazing at the time though I also remember the first time I heard several different speakers that impressed me at the time that upon reviewing much, much later, left me less than impressed.
In the $50,000+ range, my experience in Columbus, Ohio with the Wilson Grand SLAMMs and Spectral equipment left me with many more goosebumbs, even to my more experienced ears. In all honesty, if I could block out the imposing size and pricing, I'm not sure I enjoyed either of them more than the von Schweikert VR4.5s or the previously mentioned B&W Bower Silver Signatures. Though fairly stiffly priced themselves, these both offer very, very good sound (in my opinion of course) for 1/5 to 1/10 the price of the Wilsons or Goldmunds. Heck, even the ProAc Response 3s on the Jolida integrated offered quite exceptional sound.
In the $50,000+ range, my experience in Columbus, Ohio with the Wilson Grand SLAMMs and Spectral equipment left me with many more goosebumbs, even to my more experienced ears. In all honesty, if I could block out the imposing size and pricing, I'm not sure I enjoyed either of them more than the von Schweikert VR4.5s or the previously mentioned B&W Bower Silver Signatures. Though fairly stiffly priced themselves, these both offer very, very good sound (in my opinion of course) for 1/5 to 1/10 the price of the Wilsons or Goldmunds. Heck, even the ProAc Response 3s on the Jolida integrated offered quite exceptional sound.
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