mitchba, I also had been in the music industry (well, I still work when I'm asked). After a few years of spending time occasionally here at DIYAudio for learning purpose, I started thinking that the confusion of the audiophiles comes from above idea; pre-postmodern philosophy. If you would read any of the post-structuralism books by Jacques Derrida or someone else, I believe you would feel that this kind of statement can't be survived in this internet age...
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Hello Augerpro
Looking at the M2 Salon comparison they are both CD designs using the same basic science and design guidelines so I am surprised that there was a clear preference. So what are they hearing? Differences in DI translates to differences in the overall in room frequency response and the Salon won based on that? That would certainly back-up the Tooles position of the importance of frequency response vs preference.
Rob
Looking at the M2 Salon comparison they are both CD designs using the same basic science and design guidelines so I am surprised that there was a clear preference. So what are they hearing? Differences in DI translates to differences in the overall in room frequency response and the Salon won based on that? That would certainly back-up the Tooles position of the importance of frequency response vs preference.
Rob
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Yeah I remember that glad you posted it but that was many years ago. One of the biggest issues was the periodic ripple in the responses you would see. If you look at either the DSP for the M2 or just a measurement of a compression driver on that horn you don't see that. There is definitely improvement in that respect. I have measurements of the M2 and a JBL S/R waveguide and they look quite smooth in comparison to some of the other horns referenced with the exception being Earls Oblate Spheroid in the original posting. So I am not to sure this is what was heard and the difference between them.
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Yup
Floyd Toole said:
I suppose one could purposefully select prerecorded music that would favor one type of speaker dispersion over the other.
A proper test might consist of a handful of performers who could play music in a room for seated listeners. There would need to be vocal, percussive and dynamic elements to the music to energize the room acoustically. These performances would have to be recorded live and then mixed in reasonably short period of time (perhaps the listeners break for an extended lunch). These mixes would be made using the speakers under test as monitors and in the same room as the recording was made, so a comparison of two different speakers would yield two different mixes (one from each speaker). These different mixes could be played back on both speakers in a blind listening fashion. The performers would remain to perform the piece live as a reference for the listeners.
Such a test might indicate some interesting results, such as wether there is a preference for a speaker when it is playing back music mixed on it, or whether a particular speaker is preferred regardless.
Hello Patrick,
Thanks for the post. I looked up the manufacturers curves for the CD BMS 4552, It looks like the frequency peek at ~ 18K is the driver and not the horn. I like the ladder / rack. How did you turn the ladder at 11, 22, 33 and 44 degrees or did you move the microphone. Will you show a picture of the 4-1/2 inch round over? I like the XT1086 i am also trying it out with a FaitalPro HF111 driver crossed over at 2K above a 10 inch direct driver.
Thank You DT
Even more: people like dome tweeters, little cones and little baffles far away the walls. I have no comparison: I never heard a quality horn system.
Maybe it has to do with the idea that horns are thought of for bigger venues than the average home consumer has the space for.... I think as mentioned above JBL has pretty good horn implementations but then again how many bad implementations have been done that people might just be averse to them due to past prejudices. If done right their good especially for farfield listening but if done badly your ruined for life.
When you say "disappearing" better I think you can't disregard the dispersion and tonality. The Ultima2s are extremely directional above 8KHz and the tweeter basically brickwalls there at the 45 degree+ measurements, whereas the Performa3 tweeter has output that gradually peters out to 15KHz before rising again rapidly at 16KHz and above, this is the 60 degree + horizontal measurements.
The Ultima2 design is just much darker with very little high frequency dispersion above the upper mids.
I think about it this way: direct radiators typically fit a half space baffle, and this is arbitrary.. it doesn't fit the room directly. If you want to fill the room (maybe randomly), but efficiently, then this is not the optimum way both because the directivity isn't that way inclined and because it changes with direction.
Headphones (good ones of course) can show you how clean a reflection free environment can be, except that speakers can be so much better
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It is possible to create any directivity at any frequency. It isn't always easy.
Before you try you should know what is useful for the room to work with. There are a number of ways to approach it, and there is not one way to illuminate a room precisely. Once you figure out what is and isn't audible, and how far you are prepared to go, and what is mandatory (such as tweeter at ear height), then clear options will follow.
OK then, going back to your original question.
What you can do is treat the nearby reflections with absorbing panels. Remember that the tweeter goes narrow at the top end and its reflection may suffer.
You want to fill the reverberant space, and probably reduce the early reflections. One thing you can do is sit close enough that you avoid the ceiling reflection. If you place the speakers well apart the opposite wall reflection is longer. The near wall will be stronger.
What you can do is treat the nearby reflections with absorbing panels. Remember that the tweeter goes narrow at the top end and its reflection may suffer.
Hmm, I take it to mean he wants to 'light up' the room as quickly and as much as possible, which at minimum would be the tiny driver/baffle well away and angled from the sound wall and up or down vertically depending on the room acoustics and/or personal preference to create an concert hall bowl type reverberant sound field.
GM
GM