The basic concept isn't too different between the two designs. The gain distribution is. I have never seen a 12AX7 adequately drive a large output tube with authority where distortion isn't a desired thing (guitar amp), so I would vote for the Dynamull.
Be aware that there is a dot missing in your version of the schematic. The .047 cap and the 1K resistor at the EF86 cathode should be connected. It isn't stated on your schematic but you must use a 5U4 rectifier with a 400-0-400 volt power transformer. Even still you are going to have nearly 500 volts of B+. I get 520 volts with a 400-0-400 and a 5AR4. That much B+ will require a fairly conservative bias point to avoid melting EL34's. Both designs use cathode bias which helps to waste some voltage and makes for a simpler design. I tend to prefer seperate cathode resistors for each output tube, so that perfect tube matching isn't needed.
From what I can tell the Dynamull design that you are looking at originated at Triode Electronics (possibly by the prior owner), and the DynaMutt isn't a kit, although parts and PC boards are available. I have no association with either company except for buying some parts from Triode a few years ago.
I slapped together a mono push pull amplifier by hacking one of my Simple SE amp boards. It used a 12AT7 in LTP driving either 6L6GC's, KT88's or EL34's. I tested it with all 3 tube types. The circuit looked very similar to the Dynamull except that I did not have any input tube, and I didn't have any feedback connected. Some type of input tube is needed, and the gain required depended on how much feedback is used.
The point that I am making is that there were a few people all collaborating on an amplifier design (the KT88 Mullard design) that all got to the same point until each started thinking about exactly what they really wanted. Now there are at least 3 threads where people are seeking what appears to be minor variations of that same circuit.
If you like the Dynamull circuit, then build it. I would leave out the 12pF cap for the initial build since the value of it and the 33 pF in the feedback loop are OPT specific. I would consider a power transformer smaller that 400-0-400 since you really don't need (or want that much voltage).
I built my first computer in 1975 it ran at 978KHz and held a whopping 2 KB of ram. Storage was by cassette tape. The kit cost over $1K in 1975 dollars. I expanded it until it took up my entire workbench,128K ram, single 8 inch floppy disk, 6809 processor overclocked to about 3 MHz! A modern PIC chip could whup it! Never had a Comodore machine, but I did have a TRS-80 and it seemed like everyone at work was building Apple II clones, Also the 4.77MHz PC.
Whats not to like.
That's the question nobody seems willing to answer about any of the schematics already presented here. I never dreamed I would have a hard time eliciting opinions in this forum.
[edit: Tubelab replied while I was typing.]
12AU7's seem to have a bad rap judging from reading the threads here. Not sure why.
Plitron iron is very expensive, high-end, which is fine as an option for those with suitable budgets, but not fine if there are no other options.
..Todd
Thank you.
Thanks again. I will fix that.
I'll see if I can figure out a better number from the datasheets. Thanks again. But I will probably not succeed at accomplishing anything useful.
That makes sense to me.
Yes, that's where the schematic was found.
..Todd
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Basically the Mullard UL circuit has a "group sound"
The 20 db feedback, EL34 Outputs and UL made all the amps sound more similar than different.
Yes, better output transformers did make a difference.
If you like that sound, OK. If not, time for something completely different.
Since the design was done to death in the 50's and 60's, its more interesting to try something else.
As for the 12AU7, it has about 13 db more distortion than a 6SN7 in the same circuit. The 6SN7/6FQ7 has the same Rp, the same Mu. While most other tubes are not directly comparable, this is a drop in replacement apart from the heater voltage.
Doug
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Nothing new under the sun. Looking at the graphs, the in/out linearity is to be expected but what's missing is a graph "distortion vs.frequency" at specified output.
I presume the distortion vs. power was done at 1Khz. Somewhat camouflaged in the lowest graph (on last page) is the rather rough looking 10Khz waveform with ringing.(if it is that). As this is a HiFi design those waveforms in my designs would be investigated.
richy
I just noticed the "than your entire lifetime" part of the sentence. Sadly, no, I am substantially older than 38. Known as grandpa to my bluetooth toting 30-something gamer colleagues at work. But still able to tackle new technologies (as long as it doesn't involve a 3D first person shooter -- give me Lode Runner any day.)
..Todd
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OK, gramps!
Call me geezer geek.I've dabbled at PC software, under MSDOS. Maybe I'll mess with Linux, in the future. Professionally, keeping over 20 CICS regions operating on an even keel occupies most of my time. "New" features, like decent support for SOAP, adds spice to the same old, same old.
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Actually, "done to death in the 50's and 60's" is fine for what I'm looking for. I want to create and document a tube newbie project. The equivalent to a chipamp in the SS DIY world. When newbies come asking for a viable first project, it's the one they get referred to, with no reservations or regrets -- a no-brainer. I would prefer my no-brainer to sport reasonable updates without complications... A solid state rectifier and operating point tweaks for different tubes is fine, but no added CCS's or FET drivers, etc.
Basically an updated ST-70 without any added bells and whistles, as TubeLab suggested, would work well. Ie. the DynaMull with the B+ lowered a bit. I'm currently puzzling out how to accomplish that. Check back in 5 years for a mid-term status update.
Speaking of DynaMull, TubeLab... I found a note saying "It is from the Dynaco Super Fidelity Output Transformers catalog." Not sure what the history on that is. Doesn't much matter I suppose.
Interesting projects come later. A feet wetting experience is what I want to create.
Interesting information. Thanks.
..Todd
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Well, someone's gotta keep those old machines in fresh tubes.
SOAP on a mainframe? Gonna integrate the Twitter API soon? ..Todd
Not likely! Leveraging legacy code to yield webified user interfaces access is the object of the exercise. I'd be the 1st to tell you mainframes are wretched presentation platforms. OTOH, the small platforms stink at managing GARGANTUAN amounts of data effectively and reliably. Nothing new here, in spite of claims to the contrary, 1 size never fits all.
Nah! All the 5965s, 5814s, 5963s, etc. left over from 1st generation gates have found their way into our projects.
Seriously, IBM's current z series processors are downright FRIGHTENING. You get, in the space of a big home refrigerator, the amount of computing power that used to occupy a city block. 
What is the best way to accomplish that? Just break the connection between the two cathodes and use the same value resistors and caps on each side? (in this case 250R//150uF). Or since they both conduct, use half the resistance? I'm still a lot confused about the AC and DC currents in that area.
Is there a pspice modeler that supports tubes without me having to create my own components from scratch? We (well, they...) use NI Multisim at work, but its support for tubes is pretty anemic. I'd have to build my own symbols and plug in some models I get from elsewhere.
..Todd
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For the value of those resistors, just remember Ohm's Law. You want to drop the same voltage for the bias, but each resistor will only have half the current...
Now, for what you probably don't want to hear. I think a 25-50W PP point to point first time project "to dip your toe in the water" is not a realistic objective.
You have not built a tube amp before, but have built several chip amps? I was in that position myself. Remember, a 50W tube amp is not comparable to a 50W chip amp. The clipping on (low feedback?) tube amps is generally more gentle than the SS amp, so less headroom is required. I have a 12W tube amp in the place of a 50W SS amp.
25-50W in a tube amp is getting complex and expensive. If you have not built a tube amp before, you probably do not realise that much of the skill in building one is layout. You can have the best topology and components, but with a sloppy layout you will end up with a humming, disappointing project that will discourage a beginner.
I would suggest a project like the Tubelab Simple SE as a first project that will guarantee a result, or one of the kits. If you really want to try point to point for your first project, I suggest a low cost single ended project using cheap iron. Learn good layout skills with cheap parts first.
FWIW, I had built several SS chip amps before building a Tubelab Simple SE. I then tried a 6BM8 point to point. I thought I had read enough about layout, but it turned in to a disaster! Hummed like crazy! I did learn some good lessons and ended up recycling the parts in to other amps that worked properly... I have now built about 8 tube amps. I now feel confident enough to attempt a reasonably complex PP amp point to point wired in the 25-50W range.
In other words, I think you need to review your project design goals to be more realistic. Either reduce the power/complexity requirement, the point to point requirement, or the first time builder requirement.
Regards and good luck,
Chris
Now, for what you probably don't want to hear. I think a 25-50W PP point to point first time project "to dip your toe in the water" is not a realistic objective.
You have not built a tube amp before, but have built several chip amps? I was in that position myself. Remember, a 50W tube amp is not comparable to a 50W chip amp. The clipping on (low feedback?) tube amps is generally more gentle than the SS amp, so less headroom is required. I have a 12W tube amp in the place of a 50W SS amp.
25-50W in a tube amp is getting complex and expensive. If you have not built a tube amp before, you probably do not realise that much of the skill in building one is layout. You can have the best topology and components, but with a sloppy layout you will end up with a humming, disappointing project that will discourage a beginner.
I would suggest a project like the Tubelab Simple SE as a first project that will guarantee a result, or one of the kits. If you really want to try point to point for your first project, I suggest a low cost single ended project using cheap iron. Learn good layout skills with cheap parts first.
FWIW, I had built several SS chip amps before building a Tubelab Simple SE. I then tried a 6BM8 point to point. I thought I had read enough about layout, but it turned in to a disaster! Hummed like crazy! I did learn some good lessons and ended up recycling the parts in to other amps that worked properly... I have now built about 8 tube amps. I now feel confident enough to attempt a reasonably complex PP amp point to point wired in the 25-50W range.
In other words, I think you need to review your project design goals to be more realistic. Either reduce the power/complexity requirement, the point to point requirement, or the first time builder requirement.
Regards and good luck,
Chris
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I think I recall you saying you have built plenty of SS amps, but have not built a tube amp? It is the not building a tube amp that is relevant. The reason being is that it is the layout of components and wiring that is just as critical as the circuit you use. Layout skills are probably best learnt on a low cost, simple project. Sorry, but the question about the cathode resistor (simple Ohm's Law) tended to indicate a beginners level of understanding, reinforcing the view that a simple project for you and other beginners (I think that was one of your your stated aims) might be better.
If you want to do point to point with such a project, you are going to have to have a "paint by numbers" guide to layout and wiring. Since you have not done this before, you will need lots of help. Frankly, to get this help you might have ease off a little on the attitude. Advice that your approach is a little too ambitious is not an attack on your skill or desires, just a genuine attempt to help.
Chris
If you want to do point to point with such a project, you are going to have to have a "paint by numbers" guide to layout and wiring. Since you have not done this before, you will need lots of help. Frankly, to get this help you might have ease off a little on the attitude. Advice that your approach is a little too ambitious is not an attack on your skill or desires, just a genuine attempt to help.
Chris
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I am also referred to as gramps, but since I have 2 grandkids, I am qualified.
Don't forget the required MP3 player.
Yeah, somebody has to learn the new stuff, then teach them! I don't actually work in the big computer world, I deal with embedded systems where RF, analog, digital, a microcontroller core, and a DSP all have to play nice with each other, and run for days on a tiny battery. They don't teach that stuff in school, but all of those disciplines must work well together in many of todays devices like cell phones.
I thought I had them all! Seriously I have thousands of old computer tubes.
The amount of distortion a tube generates depends greatly on the operating conditions that it sees in that particular circuit. There are several people who claim that all 12AU7's suck. I have managed to wire up a 12AU7 and tweak the circuit so that the overall distortion was quite low, and mostly 2nd harmonic. However, the distortion was high when an identical 12AU7 was installed into the same circuit. This is why we have people "rolling tubes" and worshiping certain brands and vintages like expensive wine. To me that is just a poor circuit design. Tubes are quite variable and a good circuit design should be able to handle that variation without major operational differences. So, is it possible to design a good circuit that works with lots of different 12AU7's? I don't know, but since I have buckets full of them and most of their computer tube offspring, I will keep looking.
You want half of the current through each tube, so you would use twice the resistance. Look at the schematic of the Plitron / Kobayashi design. it uses a 667 ohm resistor for each tube, a 680 ohm would be a good choice. That amp uses a 470 uf cap for each tube, I tend to use a larger cap because the ESR is lower. While you are looking, note which tube is used for the first stage, yes......a 12AU7.
Yes, Plitron iron is expen$ive. I have a pair of 400 watt Plitron OPT's, but they were on their "surplus transformers" web page for a reasonable price. Someone mentioned that on this forum and they were gone in 3 days! Otherwise, yes Plitron is far out of my price range. The one thing about DIY is that you are free to use whatever OPT's that you feel appropriate for your budget, application, and skill level. That doesn't mean you can't use their schematic.
I must state my opinion, but you are however free to build what you want, and I will help where my limited time allows. Too many people start off with a "first project" that is too complicated. When it doesn't work right, and it can't be diagnosed and fixed over a forum page, it gets abandoned and that person never tries another tube amp. The result, a lot of time, money, and frustration wasted and nothing for the effort. I get emails from people that want to build a monster power amplifier using transmitting tubes running on 1KV for their first project. They often get angry when I tell them not to.
Why is this not a good first project? Well apart from the obvious risk of DEATH, the probability of success is very low and the price of failure is very high. This almost guarantees that the builder will leave the entire hobby. On the other hand you could build a really simple project like a single tube line stage. It would afford you some experience, and a successful project, but if you don't actually use it, it was still a poor value for your time and money spent.
In undertaking ANY project there will always be the risk that it won't work. With a tube amp there is a risk of fried parts (although I have fried far more silicon). The task (as with most things in life) is to find a project where the risk / reward ratio is acceptable to you.
Yes, I'm the guy behind the Simple SE, but I am not here to tell you to build one. I am explaining that the reason for designing it, and the reason for its success is that the probability of success is very high, and the cost of construction is reasonable. It is "plug and play", If you build it right, it will just work, no tweaking or adjustments needed. I don't know of anyone who built one and never made it work, and only one had couldn't be fixed through this forum. It was sent to me and I fixed it. The resulting amplifier is a very useful design (I still use 2 of them) and most builders continue on to make more tube equipment. So, I have provided a good risk / reward ratio for dozens of builders.
I use PC board construction to force the user into adopting a layout that has already been optimized to eliminate hum (a common problem in point to point construction including some of my own).
The soon to be released Simple P-P is a similar concept in a push pull design and the complete amp will cost slightly less than the Simple SE to build. It does not however meet your power goals. A push pull amplifier in the 15 to 20 WPC class can be built using a single reasonably priced power transformer and a pair of reasonably priced OPT's. A 35 WPC push pull amplifier requires one fairly big power transformer, or two smaller units (either way the cost doubles) and the OPT costs go up. So to get to a 35 WPC amplifier quite a bit more money must be spent compared to a 15 WPC P-P amp, or a 10 WPC SE amp. That is a given. This may still be OK if the probability of success is high. Only you can decide this.
I can say that I am working on a Simple P-P amplifier in the 35 watt class. You are not the first person who has asked for one. It seems that's what most people want for their first project. I just haven't figured out how to make one with a low cost and a near 100% success rate yet.
I have looked at several prototype designs.
One of the possible choices is a design similar to the Mullard. I agree with the statement that they all sound alike, because there is too much gain, and too much feedback. I reduced the gain by using a triode in place of the EF86. I mentioned before that the driver and output stages are made from a hacked Simple SE board. The input stage is a single triode mounted on a turret board. The schematic is similar to the Plitron design mentioned above.
Another possible design uses a concept similar to Pete Milletts "engineers amplifier". I have one of those operational, and I have made it work at several power levels from 20 WPC to 200 WPC. His entire design is posted on his web site. It is a good design for a relatively low cost P-P amp, and several people have built it. There are a few builds in his thread ranging from stock, to my hot rodded version. A modified and simplified version using common octal tubes and cathode bias may work here.
Another possible design is an octal version of the EL84 Simple P-P.
I plan to test them all, and then to a cost / risk / performance analysis. The best one or two will be made into Tubelab PC boards.
So, if you still think that a 35WPC P-P amp project is what you want to do I can offer a few suggestions.
1) A kit.....You already rulled this out, but it has the highest probability of success.
2) Build an amp using PC boards that are already designed and competently laid out. This is the secret to the Simple SE's success, but there are some less than stellar designs out there. You still need to choose a design and purchase the right components.
3) An exact copy of a known working design. The probability of first time success is getting lower since you won't be using the exact same layout and components that the originator used. This also depends on the quality of the documentation.
4) Build an amp entirely from a known good schematic. If you know that the schematic is exactly what you want, you must still get the layout right to avoid hum, oscillation, or distortion. Often you are on your own for component selection since the schematic usually only gives the component value. If there is a parts list, and it is more than a few years old, many of the exact components will no longer be available.
Still listening? I don't mean to scare anybody away from this hobby, just the opposite. The impedances in tube circuitry is much higher than SS, and so are the voltages, and AC currents flowing through the amp. A clean hum free build is not a given. I will eventually finish my Simple P-P EL34 edition, and the schematics will be published on the web site. As with the Simple SE anyone is able to copy them and build one using point to point construction, Just dont expect me to analyze and fix the hum on your amp remotely when I can't touch it. (yeah it happened)
taj, If you are not in a terrible hurry, I can offer this. We know that you can draw pretty schematics. I still have the hacked up Simple SE board and the turret board input stage. After I am done with the current Simple P-P amp builds and documentation (maybe a month) I will hook it back up and make it work again. I suck at documentation, but I can draw it up on paper and then you can make it look nice. The amplifier design will be very similar to the Plitron schematic, but the power supply will be more conventional. I am looking for a design that, like the Simple SE can use EL34's, 6L6GC's and KT88's. Power should be from 25 to 60 WPC depending on tube and transformer choices. Several build options will be outlined for the different power levels. Eventually I will offer PC boards for this project too, but it will be a while.
And this is why I continue to buy and recommend Tubelab products to everyone I know!
Chris,
This is a chipamp: http://www.chipamp.com/images/lm1875-8.jpg
It's an amp on a chip, just add a few resistors and caps and you got yourself a 40W amplifier. I built one of those a few years ago. Took about an hour. Sounds pretty decent too, but not my cup of tea.
An SS amp (yeah, I know chip amps are solid state too) is built using the discrete components. Here's one I modified the design for (attached). It was originally a 50W, mine is more like ~200. I'd show you a photo of the actual amplifier, but my shop is still a renovation woodwork shop until the reno is done (soon). Each output transistor in mine is about the size of the chip in the chip amp.
I have built at least 3 (4 I believe) 400W discrete amplifiers as well. All would contend with the best studio amplifiers I have used. (which is why I built them.) These also have enough voltage and current in them to kill you instantly. But I don't take risks, I'm still alive. After all, I grew up in TV repair shop in the early 60's and was taught about electricity.
And I know the Kool-Aid guzzling 300B fanatics could never believe it, but there are some phenominal amplifiers being designed and built in the SS section of diyAudio.
A 30WPP/UL tube amp is not daunting. I've dealt with my share of ground loops and oscillations, and generally speaking, they are not insurmountable. Of course I may need the technical help and advice of people here if that happens. So what?
And yes, Tubelab, a tried and tested design is what I was looking for this time. I'll keep looking.
..Todd
This is a chipamp: http://www.chipamp.com/images/lm1875-8.jpg
It's an amp on a chip, just add a few resistors and caps and you got yourself a 40W amplifier. I built one of those a few years ago. Took about an hour. Sounds pretty decent too, but not my cup of tea.
An SS amp (yeah, I know chip amps are solid state too) is built using the discrete components. Here's one I modified the design for (attached). It was originally a 50W, mine is more like ~200. I'd show you a photo of the actual amplifier, but my shop is still a renovation woodwork shop until the reno is done (soon). Each output transistor in mine is about the size of the chip in the chip amp.
I have built at least 3 (4 I believe) 400W discrete amplifiers as well. All would contend with the best studio amplifiers I have used. (which is why I built them.) These also have enough voltage and current in them to kill you instantly. But I don't take risks, I'm still alive. After all, I grew up in TV repair shop in the early 60's and was taught about electricity.
And I know the Kool-Aid guzzling 300B fanatics could never believe it, but there are some phenominal amplifiers being designed and built in the SS section of diyAudio.
A 30WPP/UL tube amp is not daunting. I've dealt with my share of ground loops and oscillations, and generally speaking, they are not insurmountable. Of course I may need the technical help and advice of people here if that happens. So what?
And yes, Tubelab, a tried and tested design is what I was looking for this time. I'll keep looking.
..Todd
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The reference to 50 watt chip amps was a roundabout way to put the question - do you need that much power. Many people who have not owned a tube amp think they need more power than perhaps they really do. Yes, I am aware of the difference between a chip amp and a discreet component SS amp.
My understanding was that you wanted a project that could be documented for a first time builder. Myself, and several others have suggested that this project will not meet that requirement. I still think this is a valid view.
Of the many special interest forums that I participate in, this particular one is the most friendly, helpful, supportive and tolerant. My genuine attempts to help you with your project appear to be eliciting a response from you that is not in that spirit, so I will retire from this thread.
All the best in your quest,
Chris
My understanding was that you wanted a project that could be documented for a first time builder. Myself, and several others have suggested that this project will not meet that requirement. I still think this is a valid view.
Of the many special interest forums that I participate in, this particular one is the most friendly, helpful, supportive and tolerant. My genuine attempts to help you with your project appear to be eliciting a response from you that is not in that spirit, so I will retire from this thread.
All the best in your quest,
Chris
Hi Chris,
My apologies to you and anyone else I've snapped at lately. Without trying to makes excuses, our family has had a tough couple weeks with losing a close friend and a family member. I should have stayed away from the forum until the emotions were in check. Getting there now.
There are many good reasons to want more than flea power, and to not want horns, but that's a different discussion and not one I am really interested in. I have a pretty good handle on amplifier power. But in general, I think 25-50 watts is plenty enough for typical home use, even with 'normal' 87-89dB speakers.
But having been in the recording, concert and music business so long, I hold an irrational regard for the adrenalin boost that comes with running "big iron". It's like commuting to work in funny car -- fun to step on the gas every now and again, but mostly just expensive, useless and fun to look at and talk about. That's not something I would tackle with tubes though. It wouldn't make sense at any level.
You are correct, I would like to document a Mullard type project for newbies, but one point in doing so, is so that they have another project choice that is tweaked, tested and almost foolproof because it's well documented. I think it would be cool to do that to a simple old-school circuit, with only very minor updates. I have nothing against FET drivers and CCS chips, but they wouldn't suit what I want to do in that project.
In fact, I will probably be building the KT88 Mullard in SGregory's thread. But only as a personal project, not one I would document for others.
Everyone has their own interests and requirements, and mine are nothing unusual, yet there are no projects here that suit my taste. I would prefer to solve the problem for anyone else interested, than to settle for something that is different than what I was originally looking for.
I am rapidly getting up to speed on tube amps. Learning lots every day. One day in the near future I will be ready to tweak my own old-school circuit. I guess I will have to wait until then.
I have enough experience to know my goals are perfectly reasonable. If nobody else wants to participate, that's fine, I'll get it done anyway. I always do. I rarely listen to nay-sayers. I joined a martial arts club at age 40 against everyone's advice and didn't regret that for any of the 5 years it took to get a black belt. I joined a hockey team at age 50 playing with 20-somethings, much to the shock and horror of my wife and both our parents. No regrets. If the kids slam gramps into the boards for no reason, they end up in the bleachers with their $400 titanium stick wrapped around their $400 helmet.
..Todd
My apologies to you and anyone else I've snapped at lately. Without trying to makes excuses, our family has had a tough couple weeks with losing a close friend and a family member. I should have stayed away from the forum until the emotions were in check. Getting there now.
There are many good reasons to want more than flea power, and to not want horns, but that's a different discussion and not one I am really interested in. I have a pretty good handle on amplifier power. But in general, I think 25-50 watts is plenty enough for typical home use, even with 'normal' 87-89dB speakers.
But having been in the recording, concert and music business so long, I hold an irrational regard for the adrenalin boost that comes with running "big iron". It's like commuting to work in funny car -- fun to step on the gas every now and again, but mostly just expensive, useless and fun to look at and talk about. That's not something I would tackle with tubes though. It wouldn't make sense at any level.
You are correct, I would like to document a Mullard type project for newbies, but one point in doing so, is so that they have another project choice that is tweaked, tested and almost foolproof because it's well documented. I think it would be cool to do that to a simple old-school circuit, with only very minor updates. I have nothing against FET drivers and CCS chips, but they wouldn't suit what I want to do in that project.
In fact, I will probably be building the KT88 Mullard in SGregory's thread. But only as a personal project, not one I would document for others.
Everyone has their own interests and requirements, and mine are nothing unusual, yet there are no projects here that suit my taste. I would prefer to solve the problem for anyone else interested, than to settle for something that is different than what I was originally looking for.
I am rapidly getting up to speed on tube amps. Learning lots every day. One day in the near future I will be ready to tweak my own old-school circuit. I guess I will have to wait until then.
I have enough experience to know my goals are perfectly reasonable. If nobody else wants to participate, that's fine, I'll get it done anyway. I always do. I rarely listen to nay-sayers. I joined a martial arts club at age 40 against everyone's advice and didn't regret that for any of the 5 years it took to get a black belt. I joined a hockey team at age 50 playing with 20-somethings, much to the shock and horror of my wife and both our parents. No regrets. If the kids slam gramps into the boards for no reason, they end up in the bleachers with their $400 titanium stick wrapped around their $400 helmet.
..Todd
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