Precision
The low-noise precision op-amp is for people that measure everything.
I'm shure that someday Paul Miller is going to make measurements of some commercial product with this dac and op-amps for Hi-Fi Choice, and he will say it's very good.
Looks good on the graph!
The low-noise precision op-amp is for people that measure everything.
I'm shure that someday Paul Miller is going to make measurements of some commercial product with this dac and op-amps for Hi-Fi Choice, and he will say it's very good.
Looks good on the graph!
Maybe we just make completely wrong assumptions here ?!
What do you think will be the best customers (i.e. those ordering the largest quantities) ?
Small highend companies with very skilled developers that will be tweaking around anyway - or is it the companies selling medium quality stuff with very tight time to market requirements and margins ?
If you were TI, at whom would you aim your data-sheets and application notes ?
Regards
Charles
What do you think will be the best customers (i.e. those ordering the largest quantities) ?
Small highend companies with very skilled developers that will be tweaking around anyway - or is it the companies selling medium quality stuff with very tight time to market requirements and margins ?
If you were TI, at whom would you aim your data-sheets and application notes ?
Regards
Charles
Re: Precision
....and why do we need an even better DAC (on paper) if we don't want to measure...? What are the marketing points?
carlosfm said:
....and why do we need an even better DAC (on paper) if we don't want to measure...? What are the marketing points?
I'll guess for people like me which likes hard facts to start with. Why would I choose an OPA627/LT1028 or NE5534?phase_accurate said:
Re: Precision
LT1028 is actually ultra low distortion OPA and is used
in quite a few VHQ products, pro and consumer.
In this application it may well measure better than 627
anyone got an APII on hand 🙂
T
carlosfm said:The low-noise precision op-amp is for people that measure everything.
I'm shure that someday Paul Miller is going to make measurements of some commercial product with this dac and op-amps for Hi-Fi Choice, and he will say it's very good.
Looks good on the graph!
LT1028 is actually ultra low distortion OPA and is used
in quite a few VHQ products, pro and consumer.
In this application it may well measure better than 627
anyone got an APII on hand 🙂
T
Re: Re: Precision
You should choose it on sound; measurements being equal. It is difficult to find real differences based on opamp specs such as noise figures, given decent opamps. I have found, as LCAudio states, that lower open loop gain opamps do sound better
-----------------------------------------peranders said:
You should choose it on sound; measurements being equal. It is difficult to find real differences based on opamp specs such as noise figures, given decent opamps. I have found, as LCAudio states, that lower open loop gain opamps do sound better
Marketing
Peranders,
We sometimes have to think in terms of the general public.
For instance, suppose I own a Hi-Fi brand.
I'm designing a cd-player.
If I put in a 16bit dac, these days it won't sell.
If I put in a 24 bit/192khz dac, it's great for marketing, and it may sell.
Ultimately, the 24 bit version can even play worst...
Some audiophiles and even dealers, and magazines do like bits!
Peranders,
We sometimes have to think in terms of the general public.
For instance, suppose I own a Hi-Fi brand.
I'm designing a cd-player.
If I put in a 16bit dac, these days it won't sell.
If I put in a 24 bit/192khz dac, it's great for marketing, and it may sell.
Ultimately, the 24 bit version can even play worst...
Some audiophiles and even dealers, and magazines do like bits!
Hi carlosfm
case reopend
You 're a bit mixed up.
You don't like NE5532 because it's old and thing have evoluted as you said.
Well 24bits DAC's is the evolution of 16bit ones.
But then maybe they have too much detail for your system.
And as you would have said:
Oh well... back to 12bits....
But seriously mesurements are a must for high FIDELITY.
If you want something with SWEET SOUND put tubes in it.
But then forget the 130db.
No offense, huh?
Just joking.
case reopend
You 're a bit mixed up.
You don't like NE5532 because it's old and thing have evoluted as you said.
Well 24bits DAC's is the evolution of 16bit ones.
But then maybe they have too much detail for your system.
And as you would have said:
Oh well... back to 12bits....
But seriously mesurements are a must for high FIDELITY.
If you want something with SWEET SOUND put tubes in it.
But then forget the 130db.
No offense, huh?
Just joking.
Are you there?
leon,
I see you were waiting for an opportunity...
I was joking with you, seriously.
You don't have to take it personally.
I think we are talking different things.
Digital is different.
Why did Marantz put a TDA1541 Double Crown on the CD7?
Did they put NE5532s?
No.
Why are people searching for that dac?
My dac is 20 bits (AD1862, with PMD100 HDCD filter) and you can bring almost any 24 bit dacs you want.
It eats them for lunch.
I really think, from experience, that it's the quality of the dac that counts, and it's implementation, not necessarily the number of bits.
If you read my post again, I say CD-PLAYER!😡
On a Compact Disc there's only 16 bits recorded!😎
130 db what????????
leon,
I see you were waiting for an opportunity...
I was joking with you, seriously.
You don't have to take it personally.
I think we are talking different things.
Digital is different.
Why did Marantz put a TDA1541 Double Crown on the CD7?
Did they put NE5532s?
No.
Why are people searching for that dac?
My dac is 20 bits (AD1862, with PMD100 HDCD filter) and you can bring almost any 24 bit dacs you want.
It eats them for lunch.
I really think, from experience, that it's the quality of the dac that counts, and it's implementation, not necessarily the number of bits.
If you read my post again, I say CD-PLAYER!😡
On a Compact Disc there's only 16 bits recorded!😎
130 db what????????
Dear Carlos
I agree with you in some things.
Digital is sure different but the other way around.
Digital is evoluting faster.
The best DAC's of some years old are obsolete today.
Analog is around many decades now.
Quality and implementation count and can make the differance.
I talked about DAC's not cd-players.
well even 106 db.
But If that makes you laugh I'll write it again,
"130db soon at a theater near you, don't miss it".
I was not waiting for you it came out spontaneously.
I agree you are more experienced than I.
Regards
😎
I agree with you in some things.
Digital is sure different but the other way around.
Digital is evoluting faster.
The best DAC's of some years old are obsolete today.
Analog is around many decades now.
Quality and implementation count and can make the differance.
I talked about DAC's not cd-players.
well even 106 db.
But If that makes you laugh I'll write it again,
"130db soon at a theater near you, don't miss it".
I was not waiting for you it came out spontaneously.
I agree you are more experienced than I.
Regards
😎
leon,
I don't know who's more experienced, we don't know each other.
We are here to change oppinions and learn.
I was talking in the point of view of a cd-player since the beginning.
If that's a little off-topic, then pardon me.
I never said that dac isn't good.
I was just saying bits are not the most important, and I know you agree.
Every crap 100 euros DVD-player has a 24 bit dac these days.
I know you can have 130 db with high-resolution, but that's only theoretical.
I've yet to see a DVD-Audio or SACD player that gets there.
It doesn't depend only of the dac chip itself.
And again I agree that digital is evoluting every day.
I couldn't bare the sound of CD in the first years.
So... it seams we agree on almost everything.
Except the NE5532/4, for me, I don't like it's cold and undynamic sound.
But again, it's my oppinion, keep this in mind.
I'm not saying you, but there are people there that think they always have the reason, they know everything.
Some of them never head an OPA627.
Some of them yes, but didn't like it over the NE5532/4.
Who knows why?
Audio is subjective...
I don't know who's more experienced, we don't know each other.
We are here to change oppinions and learn.
I was talking in the point of view of a cd-player since the beginning.
If that's a little off-topic, then pardon me.
I never said that dac isn't good.
I was just saying bits are not the most important, and I know you agree.
Every crap 100 euros DVD-player has a 24 bit dac these days.
I know you can have 130 db with high-resolution, but that's only theoretical.
I've yet to see a DVD-Audio or SACD player that gets there.
It doesn't depend only of the dac chip itself.
And again I agree that digital is evoluting every day.
I couldn't bare the sound of CD in the first years.
So... it seams we agree on almost everything.
Except the NE5532/4, for me, I don't like it's cold and undynamic sound.
But again, it's my oppinion, keep this in mind.
I'm not saying you, but there are people there that think they always have the reason, they know everything.
Some of them never head an OPA627.
Some of them yes, but didn't like it over the NE5532/4.
Who knows why?
Audio is subjective...
Dear Carlos
Yes we almost totaly agree.
There is something that I try to distinguish but it's hard to do.
If something sounds better (???) is it because it reproduces the signal better (low distortion generally) or because it adds something nice to the signal.
If it adds something nice to the signal I don't want it in my systemt even if it sounds better to my ears.
I hope I could easily tell apart but I'll keep trying.
That's why I like measurements.
And most of the times what measures good sounds good also.
That's my opinion about Hi-Fi.
Regards
Leon
Yes we almost totaly agree.
There is something that I try to distinguish but it's hard to do.
If something sounds better (???) is it because it reproduces the signal better (low distortion generally) or because it adds something nice to the signal.
If it adds something nice to the signal I don't want it in my systemt even if it sounds better to my ears.
I hope I could easily tell apart but I'll keep trying.
That's why I like measurements.
And most of the times what measures good sounds good also.
That's my opinion about Hi-Fi.
Regards
Leon
Measurements are measurements
leon,
You could buy a Technics amp.
They measure very well...
But they don't sound good to me.
Please don't take this too seriously.
I'm a joker.😎
Could someone like valve amps and care about measurements?
The same for vinyl...
Audio is not such an exact science.
You can have more than 100 db separation between channels on paper, and don't have any soundstage!
How do you measure soundstage???
leon,
You could buy a Technics amp.
They measure very well...
But they don't sound good to me.
Please don't take this too seriously.
I'm a joker.😎
Could someone like valve amps and care about measurements?
The same for vinyl...
Audio is not such an exact science.
You can have more than 100 db separation between channels on paper, and don't have any soundstage!
How do you measure soundstage???
>>They measure very well<< ...in an ideal environment, which has nothing to do to the real world circumstances
>>You can have more than 100 db separation between channels on paper<< ... and about 2dB separation in a real room.
>>How do you measure soundstage<<
Direct and reflected sound ratio, directivity index, channel separation, frequency balance etc. in a real room for the compete system. Try to get a little better measured values for these than the average run of the mill high-end can produce, and you'll be surprised.
>>You can have more than 100 db separation between channels on paper<< ... and about 2dB separation in a real room.
>>How do you measure soundstage<<
Direct and reflected sound ratio, directivity index, channel separation, frequency balance etc. in a real room for the compete system. Try to get a little better measured values for these than the average run of the mill high-end can produce, and you'll be surprised.
Re: Measurements are measurements
Not necessarily...
On the other hand, you could have some old Boulder amp like the 500AE that measures well and sounds good too.
Or some Bryston amps, who do it without using exotic parts.
There's a few more other list members could name I'm sure.
mlloyd1
Not necessarily...
On the other hand, you could have some old Boulder amp like the 500AE that measures well and sounds good too.
Or some Bryston amps, who do it without using exotic parts.
There's a few more other list members could name I'm sure.
mlloyd1
carlosfm said:
I like tube amps
I have build a few and I don't care how they measure (too much), they sound very good and they have a big soundstage.
But I also like solid state and very clear detailed sound.
So with tubes I don't care about measurments because their harmonic products are nice.
But with solid state I don't like distortion and I do care about measurments and choose components by them.
Leon
I have build a few and I don't care how they measure (too much), they sound very good and they have a big soundstage.
But I also like solid state and very clear detailed sound.
So with tubes I don't care about measurments because their harmonic products are nice.
But with solid state I don't like distortion and I do care about measurments and choose components by them.
Leon
According to Burr Brown (I asked them) the NE5534A was recommended due to its low input noise which anables the full dynamic range (127dB) of the DAC to be realised, BB also mentioned the fact the OPA627 would allow a dynamic range of 'only' 125dB due to its inferior noise performance.
I agree with Leon, I have listened to many op-amps including the OPA627 in two different circuits and the NE5534 is one of the best in my view. The NE5534 is clearly (to me) superior to the NE5532 and in my experience many of the criticisms directed towards the NE5532 don't apply to the NE5534, it is also interesting to note that the NE5534 mentions the NE5533 as its the dual equivalent, not the NE5532!
I will save time and hopefully prevent unhelpful replies such as 'you can't hear properly', or 'there must be something wrong with your system'. As a musician with 'perfect pitch', the ability to detect for example whether music is performed at european (A=444Hz) pitch or the very slightly lower (A=440Hz) pitch used in the UK, without any form of reference point, I think I can discount the former. A very highly regarded amplifier built using components noted for their sonic qualities, ESL loudspeakers etc, should hopefully be enough to discount the latter so lets move on.
I find it ironic that BB suggests the NE5534 for use in this application with specific emphasis on dynamic range performance as the NE5534 sounds less 'dynamic' to me than almost any more modern op-amp to which I have listened, however I have to date been unable to find any op-amp that reproduces the space and ambience captured in a recording as well as the NE5534, not to mention its unrivalled (in my view) reproduction of strings, making most other op-amps sound monotonal to some degree. The OPA627 sounds to me more detailed, though ultimately unsatisfying. The same applies to the majority of FET input op-amps that I have heard.
A qoute from a review of M.F.'s X-24K DAC (Gramophone magazine) which uses a PCM1728/NE5532 combination would seem to add weight to BB's op-amp recommendation...''excellent results...revealing subtle ambient-level information...sure footed, solid in response to transients...silky smooth in the top register''.
Tim.
I agree with Leon, I have listened to many op-amps including the OPA627 in two different circuits and the NE5534 is one of the best in my view. The NE5534 is clearly (to me) superior to the NE5532 and in my experience many of the criticisms directed towards the NE5532 don't apply to the NE5534, it is also interesting to note that the NE5534 mentions the NE5533 as its the dual equivalent, not the NE5532!
I will save time and hopefully prevent unhelpful replies such as 'you can't hear properly', or 'there must be something wrong with your system'. As a musician with 'perfect pitch', the ability to detect for example whether music is performed at european (A=444Hz) pitch or the very slightly lower (A=440Hz) pitch used in the UK, without any form of reference point, I think I can discount the former. A very highly regarded amplifier built using components noted for their sonic qualities, ESL loudspeakers etc, should hopefully be enough to discount the latter so lets move on.
I find it ironic that BB suggests the NE5534 for use in this application with specific emphasis on dynamic range performance as the NE5534 sounds less 'dynamic' to me than almost any more modern op-amp to which I have listened, however I have to date been unable to find any op-amp that reproduces the space and ambience captured in a recording as well as the NE5534, not to mention its unrivalled (in my view) reproduction of strings, making most other op-amps sound monotonal to some degree. The OPA627 sounds to me more detailed, though ultimately unsatisfying. The same applies to the majority of FET input op-amps that I have heard.
A qoute from a review of M.F.'s X-24K DAC (Gramophone magazine) which uses a PCM1728/NE5532 combination would seem to add weight to BB's op-amp recommendation...''excellent results...revealing subtle ambient-level information...sure footed, solid in response to transients...silky smooth in the top register''.
Tim.
Impressively idiots
Because of 2db of dynamic range they chose the NE5534 and muck up the sound?
This is what I call designing by numbers.
Oh please, they could advice the (excellent) OPA228, less noise than the NE5524 and MILES AHEAD IN SOUND QUALITY .
Of course, the OPA627 is even better.😀
Guys, send all your vinyl and turntables to the trash bin.😱
They have NOISE.😀
Because of 2db of dynamic range they chose the NE5534 and muck up the sound?
This is what I call designing by numbers.
Oh please, they could advice the (excellent) OPA228, less noise than the NE5524 and MILES AHEAD IN SOUND QUALITY .
Of course, the OPA627 is even better.😀
Guys, send all your vinyl and turntables to the trash bin.😱
They have NOISE.😀
TimA said:
Good post, I hear what you are saying and as always in audio
there are many disagreements. I still hold my opinion
that for low gain apps, the 627 was clearly better, (I am also
a musician and know what real nstruments sound like).
However when I get time I will revisit 5534 and check it out,
it's always good to go back and make sure we are
not headed down the garden path.
You say the 627 sounds more detailed but unsatisfying,
a lot depends on other equipment. Power supplies, choice
of caps etc etc. I would like to note that one of the systems we
used to evaluate opamp had ONLY 2 opamps in signal path
from dac to amp. The power supplies were full battery and
the amp had a passive vol control at IP. So this was incredibly
minimalist. The DAC was custom built and extremely transparent,
at the time it was one of the best we'd heard, period. It had very
little typical digital grain. In this case the 627 just let everything
through beautifully, however I would imagine on a more typical
system maybe the 5534 would sound fuller and round off
some of the nasties, I have heard this many times.
Can you describe exactly the system you evaluated
5534 vs others on. Power supplies, amp, pre amp, source etc.
This may help explain our different findings.
Cheers
Terry
Can you describe exactly the system you evaluated
5534 vs others on. Power supplies, amp, pre amp, source etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never found the NE5534 satisfying , in any system which I have used. In fact, I believe I can identify the sound of the chip as being dry and 1-D, something that plagues Japanese high end electronics that use it. People like Sony have finally dropped it.
The OP627 is not particularly brilliant either, and there are many superior new generation opamps. The LM6171/2, suitably bypassed, sounds really good. The AD825 also sounds excellent, if we wish to maintain more than +-15 V lines.
5534 vs others on. Power supplies, amp, pre amp, source etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never found the NE5534 satisfying , in any system which I have used. In fact, I believe I can identify the sound of the chip as being dry and 1-D, something that plagues Japanese high end electronics that use it. People like Sony have finally dropped it.
The OP627 is not particularly brilliant either, and there are many superior new generation opamps. The LM6171/2, suitably bypassed, sounds really good. The AD825 also sounds excellent, if we wish to maintain more than +-15 V lines.
This may be a reason but there are more opamps with low noise that will match this DAC. It' a rather peculiar that TI suggests a 20 year old opamp along with their state of the art DAC. Good engineering. I wonder what Fred would have done here?TimA said:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.