Cost of ownership of music sources: streaming, CDs. vinyl, cassettes maybe?
mp3s. That is what I am listening to, mp3s and CDs. The mp3s can be downloaded from a subscription service, 100 mp3s per month, with a monthly subscription of about $4. These are real mp3s, that is, shareable, copiable etc. Copy them to a CD and run them on your CD / DVD player - these can be obtained used for not a lot, or you may bought one to watch movies but never did, really.
Are CD's better? Yes. In an informal tests, the CD had better dynamics, high end and low end clarity, but voice quality was smooth and good. Is the mp3 worth listening to? With an increase in volume and turning up the bass and treble to get a little more detail, the mp3 was listenable, and actually enjoyable, this is what it is all about. I could listen forever or maybe until I decide to upgrade my system.
FYI I am listening to a vintage system that was handed down to me - in storage for about 10 years or more. Sounds fine.
SONY STR-333S Receiver
SONY Speakers
mp3s. That is what I am listening to, mp3s and CDs. The mp3s can be downloaded from a subscription service, 100 mp3s per month, with a monthly subscription of about $4. These are real mp3s, that is, shareable, copiable etc. Copy them to a CD and run them on your CD / DVD player - these can be obtained used for not a lot, or you may bought one to watch movies but never did, really.
Are CD's better? Yes. In an informal tests, the CD had better dynamics, high end and low end clarity, but voice quality was smooth and good. Is the mp3 worth listening to? With an increase in volume and turning up the bass and treble to get a little more detail, the mp3 was listenable, and actually enjoyable, this is what it is all about. I could listen forever or maybe until I decide to upgrade my system.
FYI I am listening to a vintage system that was handed down to me - in storage for about 10 years or more. Sounds fine.
SONY STR-333S Receiver
SONY Speakers
Attachments
mp3 vs FLAC
Just FYI this is what Audacity says about an mp3 vs FLAC (first 263 seconds). At the detailled waveform level it looks a little different but I need a different tool to analyse. They sound different. First, the mp3
Just FYI this is what Audacity says about an mp3 vs FLAC (first 263 seconds). At the detailled waveform level it looks a little different but I need a different tool to analyse. They sound different. First, the mp3
I can listen to MP3s - I have a lot of them - but can’t take a steady diet of them. I don’t find that I need to turn up the bass or treble - if anything they suffer from too much treble - as if they are intentionally trying to put in extra “detail”. My biggest beef is the poor phase tracking between channels which is most apparent through headphones. It literally sounds to me like someone is physically MOVING the loudspeakers around, randomly, at a fairly high rate of speed. It’s a similar sound to playing 2 copies of the record on two turntables and mixing them. The highs never quite track due to natural fluctuation in the platter speeds and it goes in and out of cancellation. Higher bit rates and newer formats help a lot, but can never completely get rid of it. Even if it’s “inaudible” in casual listening, put it in L-R and you can pick out the digital encoding with one ear tied behind your back. If it can get to it without too much trouble I’ll put the CD on every time instead.
When you’re starting out with equipment like that a little DIY can go a long way. The receiver probably has single IC chip amplifiers that put out between 2 and 5 watts per channel and have 220 uF output capacitors. Want bass? Find bigger caps. Home brew (or kit) amplifier added to a line-out (that you must add of course) will give the 6 to 10 dB more power you need to make a real difference. I started out with a $4 surplus 48VCT trafo and an STK439 and got 15 real watts per channel for very little money. All the rest of the parts were salvaged “for free”. Nowadays you just have to wait for the LM3886 to come back in stock.
But the real upgrade would be the speakers. I can imagine that they have 5” “full range” with about 1mm of throw and 90 Hz resonance - worth about $4 each - in them. $138 may in fact be too much to spend on speakers, but maybe two $15-20 6” sealed-box-friendly woofers, and two $10 tweeters a couple months later. When you manage to save some more, a quarter or half sheet of plywood. Salvage some crossover capacitors. Yes, regular electrolytics back to back - 3.3 to 10 uF “coupling caps” from a dead amp work well here. The first cut will probably sound better than what you have now, and could be improved 100X when you learn to build a real crossover. If you’ve already got a computer and sound card that’s 90% of the battle. Software is free if you’re willing to battle with it, and you can MAKE measurement jigs. Turn key solutions are expensive, but you do what you have to. You’ll probably end up with more than $138 in the finished product but spread out over 6 months to 2 years you'll never “feel“ it. If you truly are at the point where you cannot make $10-40 ”investments” once in a while you do not need to be spending ANY money on stereo equipment, or even be paying for subscription services. If you’re in a deep hole your effort must be spent getting out of the hole or it just gets deeper with time.
Quite a bit there to reply: first of all DIY is preferred, I built my first set of DIY speakers in 1991 with parts from Radio Shack in Canada. They worked but the at that time and age I was more into the music content itself and lyrics rather than being analytical about the accurate reproduction of sound. The problem today is that we are moving to an apartment in another country and cannot take much with us at all meaning the vintage system will be gone. There is a possibility of purchasing a mini Hi-Fi system for the living room - it has to look professionally finished - and some experimentation on the side at my desk.
This is not about not having the money to spend: I am always thinking back to when I was a student and did not have much money at all: what about Hi-Fi for that section of people - that is the best time to get into experimentation with audio circuits and speakers and gain some knowledge and maybe save some money but probably spend a whole lot of money later on when they are earning. This was all to answer the question "How Low Can You Go?" and the answer could be "below zero". No harm saving money here, but with buying and selling it is speculation which could lead to losses.
I am by no means in a deep hole but as a student that was a different story. There are things to consider when you enter the Hi Fi hobby, how much knowledge you gain or miss out on is very important. For example I would never have given away the Sony mini system we had with its speakers just because the amplifier section broke. Those speakers were something else and would have served me well now.
DIY amplifier projects will continue. The other day I played a James Taylor song through my TIP 41A single transistor circuit and nearly fell of my chair. That was a YouTube video as well, which usually sounds trashy. A small transistor amplifier project would have served me well in the 1980s when I was listening to cassettes through a portable stereo.
mp3 and headphones - must check that out and get back to you.
Looking at Digital source now, see the thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...gital-audio-player-exist.380760/#post-6885218
This is not about not having the money to spend: I am always thinking back to when I was a student and did not have much money at all: what about Hi-Fi for that section of people - that is the best time to get into experimentation with audio circuits and speakers and gain some knowledge and maybe save some money but probably spend a whole lot of money later on when they are earning. This was all to answer the question "How Low Can You Go?" and the answer could be "below zero". No harm saving money here, but with buying and selling it is speculation which could lead to losses.
I am by no means in a deep hole but as a student that was a different story. There are things to consider when you enter the Hi Fi hobby, how much knowledge you gain or miss out on is very important. For example I would never have given away the Sony mini system we had with its speakers just because the amplifier section broke. Those speakers were something else and would have served me well now.
DIY amplifier projects will continue. The other day I played a James Taylor song through my TIP 41A single transistor circuit and nearly fell of my chair. That was a YouTube video as well, which usually sounds trashy. A small transistor amplifier project would have served me well in the 1980s when I was listening to cassettes through a portable stereo.
mp3 and headphones - must check that out and get back to you.
Looking at Digital source now, see the thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...gital-audio-player-exist.380760/#post-6885218
I have been watching John Darko's videos recently. He addresses the quality of sound sources in this video. True, it is for beginners, which I can count myself as, since I have heard very few Hi-Fi systems, and reviewed even less, and purchased none.
Among the the 8 things to ignore are the differences between sources: (transcript)
Mains power conditioners
Among the the 8 things to ignore are the differences between sources: (transcript)
Mains power conditioners
Room Acoustics Paramount
Now I can insert another quote after saving and re-opening to edit.
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Someone starting out on the journey does not have to be an audiophile, so what is an audiophile? It looks like the road less traveled, and it is a toll road.
I found some revealing and articles on Audiphilia (why does that word sound so bad?)
Summaries later, but it does draw some lines.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/nov/29/lost-in-music-the-world-of-obsessive-audiophilia
https://www.wired.com/story/audiophile-gear-guide/
https://mixandmusic.com/what-music-do-audiophiles-listen-to-what-they-listen-for/
For John Darko, the room is the equipment:
https://darko.audio/2021/11/room-to-roam-from-empty-space-to-vicoustic-makeover/
I found some revealing and articles on Audiphilia (why does that word sound so bad?)
Summaries later, but it does draw some lines.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/nov/29/lost-in-music-the-world-of-obsessive-audiophilia
https://www.wired.com/story/audiophile-gear-guide/
https://mixandmusic.com/what-music-do-audiophiles-listen-to-what-they-listen-for/
For John Darko, the room is the equipment:
https://darko.audio/2021/11/room-to-roam-from-empty-space-to-vicoustic-makeover/
A $4000 plus portable system or any system seems to be out of my range forever. Except maybe as a buy and sell, but that could be risky. It's about priorities after all. With the Audiophiliac regularly recommending $500, $2000 systems and others recommending dedicated listening rooms, there is a wide range of options, just have to roll with it.
Digital sources are now the cheapest. If you have a smartphone, you can instantly listen to music from YouTube or any of the other music streaming apps that have a free online streaming option, sometimes with advertisements. I have personally used Apple Music (subsription), Deezer, Hungama and Wynk Music (https://wynk.in/music) which I am listening to now. There are subscription plans already mentioned.
As far as sound quality goes, digital music is a front runner in the race, if not the winner. Tape and Vinyl will tend to wear out with use, and are subject to irreparable damage. The quality of recording as far as my experience has taken me is best for open reel tape, followed CD, then by specialist cassette formats like Chromium on a good tape deck, then vinyl. I could never get enough bass from a record, and the high pitched sounds seemed to be prominent. For the enthusiast on a budget, this is all good news: you need your source, but you have your source, and need an amplifier and good speakers.
A damaged CD can be recovered by simply copying out the .wav files to a computer and re-writing another CD with those wav.
The following facets are related.
11. Lifetime systems - planning 10 15 20 years ahead, total cost of ownership 12. Cost of ownership of music sources: streaming, CDs. vinyl, cassettes maybe? 13. Converting your cassettes 15 Converting records you got at a thrift store or library give-away 15. Sound quality and speakers 16. Sound quality of music sources
As far as sound quality goes, digital music is a front runner in the race, if not the winner. Tape and Vinyl will tend to wear out with use, and are subject to irreparable damage. The quality of recording as far as my experience has taken me is best for open reel tape, followed CD, then by specialist cassette formats like Chromium on a good tape deck, then vinyl. I could never get enough bass from a record, and the high pitched sounds seemed to be prominent. For the enthusiast on a budget, this is all good news: you need your source, but you have your source, and need an amplifier and good speakers.
A damaged CD can be recovered by simply copying out the .wav files to a computer and re-writing another CD with those wav.
The following facets are related.
11. Lifetime systems - planning 10 15 20 years ahead, total cost of ownership 12. Cost of ownership of music sources: streaming, CDs. vinyl, cassettes maybe? 13. Converting your cassettes 15 Converting records you got at a thrift store or library give-away 15. Sound quality and speakers 16. Sound quality of music sources
What is a basic Hi Fi system? The speakers I intend to purchase are Hi-Fi speakers, so that certainly makes the grade. The DAC from a mobile phone or even a DVD/CD player is good enough, certainly the DVD player. Wires may not matter too much at this stage.
Personally, any system worth listening to must reproduce sounds from 60 Hz up to 14K , or you should be able to hear the bass in a rock band, and the drums, and the high hand and cymbals. The vocals must be clear and expressive, and all the instruments recorded to the medium must be heard, either naturally or through equalization.
What does the internet have to say?
https://blog.taotronics.com/headphones/hi-fi-audio/
Personally, any system worth listening to must reproduce sounds from 60 Hz up to 14K , or you should be able to hear the bass in a rock band, and the drums, and the high hand and cymbals. The vocals must be clear and expressive, and all the instruments recorded to the medium must be heard, either naturally or through equalization.
What does the internet have to say?
https://blog.taotronics.com/headphones/hi-fi-audio/
https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/hi-fi/best-hi-fi-speakers
Streaming: Subscription services or free streaming works fine. Hungama, Deezer, Spotify and even YouTube had some interesting songs. The Hungama site lets you download and play in proprietary formats. For example I found the epic Steely Dan Album Gaucho on Deezer for free streaming. That's a classic.
Listening on a mono Blue Tooth Sony XBS but that will do for the moment with proper equalization. Low cost sources are really out there and a lot of fun. Owning your own files is best, but with a time limited or otherwise limited download the costs are close to zero as can be.
Listening on a mono Blue Tooth Sony XBS but that will do for the moment with proper equalization. Low cost sources are really out there and a lot of fun. Owning your own files is best, but with a time limited or otherwise limited download the costs are close to zero as can be.
Placement:
Placement continues to be a problem. Placing even a small BT speaker with its back against the wall results in some terrible distortion - due to reflection from the wall on either side. Damping material may help, but moving the speaker a little forwards may help even more.
Speaker dispersion and placement
Dispersion is another problem, or remaining within the area in which the sound from the tweeter is heard clearly. The first diagram shows the narrow area in which most of the higher sound frequencies are heard, including most of the vocals.
Diagrams lower down the page depict the effect of placing the speaker too near the 'back wall' meaning the wall behind the speaker. In this case it is about 3 ft (1 metre) which is no achievable with on - wall speakers. Paul of Ask Paul, PS Audio, has researched the problem and the best he can do is to get speakers to within 2 ft of the wall behind the speaker, with some signal processing I think.
There is no remedy for wall mounted speakers but to use equalization of the sound and move them to a spot where they sound the best, about 30 cm from the wall behind works for me. Damping material is an option but finding the correct damping material is difficult.
There are speakers designed specifically for on- wall placement: having briefly auditioned Daly Spektors I think this may be a good bet. The speaker cabinet is very shallow, to make it more like a in-wall flush mounted speaker. The large tweeter may be to minimize bass emphasis. Overall a nice design. It has good reviews and is priced at $ 799 per pair, roughly $12 per month on financing if available and a good DIY project.
https://www.dali-speakers.com/products/oberon/oberon-on-wall/
Placement continues to be a problem. Placing even a small BT speaker with its back against the wall results in some terrible distortion - due to reflection from the wall on either side. Damping material may help, but moving the speaker a little forwards may help even more.
Speaker dispersion and placement
Dispersion is another problem, or remaining within the area in which the sound from the tweeter is heard clearly. The first diagram shows the narrow area in which most of the higher sound frequencies are heard, including most of the vocals.
Diagrams lower down the page depict the effect of placing the speaker too near the 'back wall' meaning the wall behind the speaker. In this case it is about 3 ft (1 metre) which is no achievable with on - wall speakers. Paul of Ask Paul, PS Audio, has researched the problem and the best he can do is to get speakers to within 2 ft of the wall behind the speaker, with some signal processing I think.
There is no remedy for wall mounted speakers but to use equalization of the sound and move them to a spot where they sound the best, about 30 cm from the wall behind works for me. Damping material is an option but finding the correct damping material is difficult.
There are speakers designed specifically for on- wall placement: having briefly auditioned Daly Spektors I think this may be a good bet. The speaker cabinet is very shallow, to make it more like a in-wall flush mounted speaker. The large tweeter may be to minimize bass emphasis. Overall a nice design. It has good reviews and is priced at $ 799 per pair, roughly $12 per month on financing if available and a good DIY project.
https://www.dali-speakers.com/products/oberon/oberon-on-wall/
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Following The Audiophiliac's advice, that is Steve Gutenberg and think Darko's advice, start with the speakers. Placement was a large concern, but now that is somewhat settled with two reviews that I have watched on "The Cheap Audio Man" that is, the review of bookshelf speakers and speakers under $100. What is most important here is that the speakers reviewed can be mounted on the wall and sound reasonably good from that position. These are going to be reasonably unobtrusive, of course there is the wiring that will have to used for connecting to the amplifier. I can only use stick-on wall hooks, so maybe more than one is in order or use large ones.
Sony speakers seem to have a good reputation, I so regret giving away the ones I had. Speakers can be a lifetime purchase. The cost of ignorance. Now I have to pay $50 to ship.
First of all the reviews:
Sony speakers seem to have a good reputation, I so regret giving away the ones I had. Speakers can be a lifetime purchase. The cost of ignorance. Now I have to pay $50 to ship.
First of all the reviews:
Next, speaker placement options. Also, how much weight can a wall mount bear? About 15 Lbs (6kg) for the heavy duty ones:
https://www.amazon.com/FOTYRIG-Adhe...ords=sticky+wall+hooks&qid=1643679817&sr=8-11
Bookshelf speakers usually weigh about 16 Lbs (around 6 kg again) . Maybe I need to use two wall hooks.
https://www.amazon.com/ELAC-Debut-B...3680108&sprefix=sony+bookshelf,aps,501&sr=8-9
https://www.amazon.com/FOTYRIG-Adhe...ords=sticky+wall+hooks&qid=1643679817&sr=8-11
Bookshelf speakers usually weigh about 16 Lbs (around 6 kg again) . Maybe I need to use two wall hooks.
https://www.amazon.com/ELAC-Debut-B...3680108&sprefix=sony+bookshelf,aps,501&sr=8-9
The placement options (this time it is the 'study' not the living room). The bass response can be adjusted by adjusting the height of the speakers off the floor. (3D image created with Wings 3D)
An interesting post (#2) on speaker placement: https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=46634
Thanks, That is a lot of information there, however I am not sure it applies to wall-mounted speakers, or if it can be successfully done. Having said that, I realize most of my listening has been done with the speakers on wall or close to the wall, I used some speaker stands once before I ever knew their effect.
Just goes to show the many facets of Hi-Fi that are unknown.
Just goes to show the many facets of Hi-Fi that are unknown.
It's really about what not to buy. In my youthful enthusiasm and ignorance, I wasted money buying (and building) lousy audio stuff that would have been better saved towards good stuff, or spent more patiently on thrift store finds. Today I'm listening to a pair of Minimus 7 speakers (under $10 a pair from a thrift store), fed from a $7 ebay TA2024 class-D amp (with the addition of an Alpha pot, Johnson binding posts and Switchcraft RCA jacks, and 12V power from a $1 thrift store Wii power supply), and a Cambridge Audio DacMagic ($20 at a yard sale). Music is from flacs on my computer. If you want a source, there's the $15 Blu-ray player from a thrift store which even plays DVD-Audio (undocumented feature on certain no-name DVD and Blu-ray players). What will $55 get you at Best Buy or even Aliexpress?
Knowledge is the key to building a Hi-Fi system, it seems, and I can attest to that. I have given away some perfectly good speakers and now have to buy and ship them here.
I looked up the Minimus 7: those speakers are powered, and very small, however they have obtained excellent reviews on Amazon, so they must be good. There is a thread running through all these discussions of 'affordable Hi-Fi' : systems for $500, systems for $150, used systems and so on, that the Hi-Fi gurus seem to be hinting at, which is that you do not need a lot of money to build a good Hi-Fi system but they can't really say that because they depend on the industry, reviews of new equipment and so on to sustain them. Maybe a little unfair but I do get this feeling.
Improvements in technology, digital audio, cheaper electronics and an abundance of used equipment caused by needless upgrades has created a great environment for the beginner Hi-Fi enthusiast.
Where did you obtain the knowledge you now have : books, forums or experience? Also, you did not mention any equalization: isn't it very important and do you use software based equalization?
I looked up the Minimus 7: those speakers are powered, and very small, however they have obtained excellent reviews on Amazon, so they must be good. There is a thread running through all these discussions of 'affordable Hi-Fi' : systems for $500, systems for $150, used systems and so on, that the Hi-Fi gurus seem to be hinting at, which is that you do not need a lot of money to build a good Hi-Fi system but they can't really say that because they depend on the industry, reviews of new equipment and so on to sustain them. Maybe a little unfair but I do get this feeling.
Improvements in technology, digital audio, cheaper electronics and an abundance of used equipment caused by needless upgrades has created a great environment for the beginner Hi-Fi enthusiast.
Where did you obtain the knowledge you now have : books, forums or experience? Also, you did not mention any equalization: isn't it very important and do you use software based equalization?
If your going to wall mount or have bookshelf speakers on shelfs.
Then it would leave out rear ported designs.
I dont understand the bias against floor standing speakers.
most homes, would have flat screen television with basic TV stand.
You either place a pair of floor standing speakers next to TV
or pair of bookshelf on TV stand.
Funny enough its been a comical issue many times here.
many people seem to be limited by " space"
and buy small bookshelf speakers.
Then end up buying speaker stands to get sound to ear level.
Floor standing speaker eliminate the need for stands, and cost of stands.
Most aren't aware of actual footprint of objects.
And almost any home has strange decor or large areas wasted with furniture arrangement
The actual footprint of extremely " large" speakers is often smaller
than spaces wasted by useless objects or furniture, or voids created by furniture arrangement.
Often a unused space , if filled. All of a sudden is a "waste of space".
where the space was actually never used.
Actual footprint of extremely large speakers is rather small.
The rest is vertical. Most ceilings are 8 to 12 feet.
Then it would leave out rear ported designs.
I dont understand the bias against floor standing speakers.
most homes, would have flat screen television with basic TV stand.
You either place a pair of floor standing speakers next to TV
or pair of bookshelf on TV stand.
Funny enough its been a comical issue many times here.
many people seem to be limited by " space"
and buy small bookshelf speakers.
Then end up buying speaker stands to get sound to ear level.
Floor standing speaker eliminate the need for stands, and cost of stands.
Most aren't aware of actual footprint of objects.
And almost any home has strange decor or large areas wasted with furniture arrangement
The actual footprint of extremely " large" speakers is often smaller
than spaces wasted by useless objects or furniture, or voids created by furniture arrangement.
Often a unused space , if filled. All of a sudden is a "waste of space".
where the space was actually never used.
Actual footprint of extremely large speakers is rather small.
The rest is vertical. Most ceilings are 8 to 12 feet.
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