In 2015 and 2017 the RMAF hosted and then published on YouTube two interesting discussions about Hi-Fi on a budget : "$500 is a lot of money to some people" , copied below.
Apart from the obvious costs of a Hi-Fi project, issues of aesthetics, placement, life cycle costs seem to be seldom discussed. Non - technical issues tend to dominate here : acceptance factor, listening levels etc.
Apart from the obvious costs of a Hi-Fi project, issues of aesthetics, placement, life cycle costs seem to be seldom discussed. Non - technical issues tend to dominate here : acceptance factor, listening levels etc.
Placement
Starting with one of the first external considerations: placement. In this 3D image of a living room, where are the speakers to be placed? These will be bookshelf speakers. Assume the speakers have to be placed against the wall for neatness.
https://livingspaces.roomplanner.com/u3cu0oeup3
Starting with one of the first external considerations: placement. In this 3D image of a living room, where are the speakers to be placed? These will be bookshelf speakers. Assume the speakers have to be placed against the wall for neatness.
https://livingspaces.roomplanner.com/u3cu0oeup3
Attachments
If you are setting up a room for sound quality purpose, the appearance aspect should be the last priority.
Dimension 1: Speaker placement options
Speaker placement and "aesthetics" is one dimension. On the one hand, you could have the speakers on speaker stands and have them 1 meter or more away from the wall. You could move them back after listening, or maybe someone will come up with a speaker stand robot. Or on the other hand you can have a on-wall speaker or a bookshelf mounted speaker, which is less obtrusive. (the link is from another thread )
Dimension 2: Acceptance Factor
In my case, the "spouse acceptance factor" is a real consideration here. At present I am listening to two large floor standing speakers that have been placed not on the floor, but on a 2 metre high cabinet against one end of a wall, the front wall as they say. The tweeters are almost inaudible. Several months ago I obtained some space on a lower shelf, but the speakers never got completed with a sufficient finish quality to make it into the living room. To make things worse, we are moving to an apartment in another country, where space will be limited and appearances paramount. I accept this. However I may have to buy some good looking Elacs or something to impress guests instead of what I have so far. The good news is that there is a bookshelf I can use on the far wall.
Dimension 3: DIY vs purchasing
Dimension 3 of speaker construction and placement. A small DIY speaker has worked very well in these settings, on a shelf in the cabinet. Space - Time - Skills and also the opportunity cost of building these speakers are considerations. Experimentation is good, but a final product needs finesse. Given the hourly wages worldwide, from $10 per hour in Canada and other places, it may be better to leave the production to someone else, work and save to purchase the speakers either new or used. Most small commercial speakers will sound decent for listening, having auditioned some myself. The bookshelf is already in place to host the said speakers. The TV stand may host the amplifier or maybe another small stand could be carefully purchased - but it is not all SAF, there are other related considerations.
There is the option of on installments - we do this all the time, TVs, cars, however financing your Hi-Fi is something not discussed often, which is a too bad, for example when people are willing to pay for streaming for the rest of their life which maybe at least 10 -20 years that amounts to a huge deal. The other option is to buy vintage and sell, these hold their prices well, and I even had a repair shop tell me some customers were getting rid of their old amps for $10 equivalent - I should have let him know I was looking for one. The system I am using is a 30 year old system that was stored in the attic for a while, unused, with its speakers. Hi-Fi can cost zero dollars or make you a slight profit after all. If $500 is a lot of money as mentioned in the RMAF video, then there should be creative ways of getting into Hi-Fi - rent, donate, etc. Is there a vintage sale forum on DIY audio? Will have to check. The hobby could be marketed better.
As a concrete example, a local search for amplifiers results in the following: Skip buying a new mobile phone for one year and there you have it.
Pioneer VSA 700 US $ 79 (Music subscriptions cost upwards of $2 a month, so this will be the equivalent of about 5 years subscription)
Yamaha Amplifier US $ 133
Ebay has one for $33.
Vintage 1991 Pioneer VSA-7500 Digital Surround Amplifier in great shape!!!
A final note here: this is not about 'cheapness'. I have spent large amounts of cash in other areas where it was worthwhile, sometimes not. The more affordable it is in the beginning 'entry level' stage, the more chance of being hooked and spending in the long run.
This thread is a result of the question "How low can you go?" in terms of cost.
Speaker placement and "aesthetics" is one dimension. On the one hand, you could have the speakers on speaker stands and have them 1 meter or more away from the wall. You could move them back after listening, or maybe someone will come up with a speaker stand robot. Or on the other hand you can have a on-wall speaker or a bookshelf mounted speaker, which is less obtrusive. (the link is from another thread )
Dimension 2: Acceptance Factor
In my case, the "spouse acceptance factor" is a real consideration here. At present I am listening to two large floor standing speakers that have been placed not on the floor, but on a 2 metre high cabinet against one end of a wall, the front wall as they say. The tweeters are almost inaudible. Several months ago I obtained some space on a lower shelf, but the speakers never got completed with a sufficient finish quality to make it into the living room. To make things worse, we are moving to an apartment in another country, where space will be limited and appearances paramount. I accept this. However I may have to buy some good looking Elacs or something to impress guests instead of what I have so far. The good news is that there is a bookshelf I can use on the far wall.
Dimension 3: DIY vs purchasing
Dimension 3 of speaker construction and placement. A small DIY speaker has worked very well in these settings, on a shelf in the cabinet. Space - Time - Skills and also the opportunity cost of building these speakers are considerations. Experimentation is good, but a final product needs finesse. Given the hourly wages worldwide, from $10 per hour in Canada and other places, it may be better to leave the production to someone else, work and save to purchase the speakers either new or used. Most small commercial speakers will sound decent for listening, having auditioned some myself. The bookshelf is already in place to host the said speakers. The TV stand may host the amplifier or maybe another small stand could be carefully purchased - but it is not all SAF, there are other related considerations.
There is the option of on installments - we do this all the time, TVs, cars, however financing your Hi-Fi is something not discussed often, which is a too bad, for example when people are willing to pay for streaming for the rest of their life which maybe at least 10 -20 years that amounts to a huge deal. The other option is to buy vintage and sell, these hold their prices well, and I even had a repair shop tell me some customers were getting rid of their old amps for $10 equivalent - I should have let him know I was looking for one. The system I am using is a 30 year old system that was stored in the attic for a while, unused, with its speakers. Hi-Fi can cost zero dollars or make you a slight profit after all. If $500 is a lot of money as mentioned in the RMAF video, then there should be creative ways of getting into Hi-Fi - rent, donate, etc. Is there a vintage sale forum on DIY audio? Will have to check. The hobby could be marketed better.
As a concrete example, a local search for amplifiers results in the following: Skip buying a new mobile phone for one year and there you have it.
Pioneer VSA 700 US $ 79 (Music subscriptions cost upwards of $2 a month, so this will be the equivalent of about 5 years subscription)
Yamaha Amplifier US $ 133
Ebay has one for $33.
Vintage 1991 Pioneer VSA-7500 Digital Surround Amplifier in great shape!!!
A final note here: this is not about 'cheapness'. I have spent large amounts of cash in other areas where it was worthwhile, sometimes not. The more affordable it is in the beginning 'entry level' stage, the more chance of being hooked and spending in the long run.
This thread is a result of the question "How low can you go?" in terms of cost.
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So the point of all this is to
1) Purchase and install a system for myself
2) Generate information for anyone in a similar situation.
Is there a Budget Hi- Fi forum? Classified for On Loan? There is a Swap Meet. Shipping is the real cost.
1) Purchase and install a system for myself
2) Generate information for anyone in a similar situation.
Is there a Budget Hi- Fi forum? Classified for On Loan? There is a Swap Meet. Shipping is the real cost.
I guess you aren't, because if you are, there won't be visible speakers in the living room, period.
Unless it's one in 10 million spouses who would allow such thing. If so, lucky you! If not, it's the usual man cave.
In the article quoted, this happy situation has developed:
So external considerations are important. Anyway how can anyone object to putting some boxes in a bookshelf, all neat and tidy, out of the way, and acoustically... well let's say the in-room response from your spouse has to be good.
So external considerations are important. Anyway how can anyone object to putting some boxes in a bookshelf, all neat and tidy, out of the way, and acoustically... well let's say the in-room response from your spouse has to be good.
Placement: starting with a 3D image of the living room space, imagine where the equipment will be placed. Additional furniture may be procured.
(Created in Wings 3D)
(Created in Wings 3D)
Where is information on building your own Hi-Fi system to be found? Well, there are books. DIY Audio does not seem to have a beginners guide, which would be very useful to anyone starting the hobby. What about an "Absolute Beginners" forum, and articles and links to those?
Links
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/blog/what-makes-hi-fi-system-beginners-guide-hi-fi
https://hifichicken.com/beginners-guide-to-hifi
https://novo.press/beginners-guide-to-building-a-hifi-system/
Audiophile's Guide: The Stereo Paperback – January 9, 2021
by Paul McGowan (Author)The Complete Guide to High-End Audio Paperback – October 1, 2021
by Robert Harley (Author)Links
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/blog/what-makes-hi-fi-system-beginners-guide-hi-fi
https://hifichicken.com/beginners-guide-to-hifi
https://novo.press/beginners-guide-to-building-a-hifi-system/
The varied facets of Hi-Fi or even mid-fi music systems are not always covered in publications and links. These tend to focus on what is essentially high-end Hi - Fi. For someone getting into music reproduction systems or 'stereo' : on a budget, headphones and all, as in RMAF, a different approach is needed.
So. here are the many facets (in my opinion) : Many have been covered by YouTube videos, few by books as far as I know.
1. Appearance, and acceptance factor
2. Buying used equipment
3. Sourcing give- away equipment/ swap meets
4. Starting off with low end amplifiers
5. Building your own speakers
6. Building your own amplifiers with casing
7. Financing your system. Yes financing your system, you finance your car and sell it at a loss so why not?
8. Buy, use for 1 year and sell
9. Repairing older systems
10. Life cycle costs
11. Lifetime systems - planning 10 15 20 years ahead, total cost of ownership
12. Cost of ownership of music sources: streaming, CDs. vinyl, cassettes maybe?
13. Converting you cassettes
15 Converting records you got at a thrift store or library give-away
15. Sound quality and speakers
16. Sound quality of music sources
17. The amazing world of blue tooth speakers
18, The amazing world of stereo - the original audio 3D experience
19. Costs of DIY - is your time worth it?
20. Discriminating between systems - good enough?
21. In Search of.. the perfect system (warning : high costs involved)
22. Is your current system good enough?
23. Get a million songs for free (almost)
24. Is buying used vinyl worth it.
25. How to listen - placement, volume levels, dB, Turn that thing down syndrome
26. Headphones and hearing damage
27. Make your own amplifier
28. Amplifier boards you can buy for low costs
29. When you reach audio heaven how will you know. Is there a God, and does he hear in Hi-Res?
30. Phone audio
32 Laptop and PC audio sources
33. DACs and low cost $12 DACs
34. Shipping these large heavy boxes
35. Systems reviewed on You Tube do they sound like that in real life?
36. How is your hearing and how it matters to your system. For example I cannot hear about 10K. A child can hear it all even when the headphones are turned way way down.
37. The Audio Gurus: invaluable opinions and knowledge. Invaluable. And such nice people.
38. A history of music reproduction and some false starts
39. How transistor radios affected music when radiograms were so good.
40. Why vinyl?
41. Wires do matter, I have experienced it myself with a phone to car stereo audio cable
42. Listening in mono to save money
43. As you got older you got better at listening and enjoying music. Not loud music, music.
44. Books to buy.
45. Areas to experiment in
46. Recordings are made with low end speakers and headphones in mind, they do not mind.
47. Headphones vs speakers: feel the bass.
48. Diminishing returns? Really, in what way?
49. Are million dollar systems thousands of time better, what's the deal on that?
50. "We should not criticize people listening on low end systems" .
52. Are million dollar cars better than thousand dollar cars?
53. Draw your ideal system and project it through time . Project the costs also.
54. Learning to listen to music and review systems after all you will review systems before you buy, right?
55. Anything else.
So. here are the many facets (in my opinion) : Many have been covered by YouTube videos, few by books as far as I know.
1. Appearance, and acceptance factor
2. Buying used equipment
3. Sourcing give- away equipment/ swap meets
4. Starting off with low end amplifiers
5. Building your own speakers
6. Building your own amplifiers with casing
7. Financing your system. Yes financing your system, you finance your car and sell it at a loss so why not?
8. Buy, use for 1 year and sell
9. Repairing older systems
10. Life cycle costs
11. Lifetime systems - planning 10 15 20 years ahead, total cost of ownership
12. Cost of ownership of music sources: streaming, CDs. vinyl, cassettes maybe?
13. Converting you cassettes
15 Converting records you got at a thrift store or library give-away
15. Sound quality and speakers
16. Sound quality of music sources
17. The amazing world of blue tooth speakers
18, The amazing world of stereo - the original audio 3D experience
19. Costs of DIY - is your time worth it?
20. Discriminating between systems - good enough?
21. In Search of.. the perfect system (warning : high costs involved)
22. Is your current system good enough?
23. Get a million songs for free (almost)
24. Is buying used vinyl worth it.
25. How to listen - placement, volume levels, dB, Turn that thing down syndrome
26. Headphones and hearing damage
27. Make your own amplifier
28. Amplifier boards you can buy for low costs
29. When you reach audio heaven how will you know. Is there a God, and does he hear in Hi-Res?
30. Phone audio
32 Laptop and PC audio sources
33. DACs and low cost $12 DACs
34. Shipping these large heavy boxes
35. Systems reviewed on You Tube do they sound like that in real life?
36. How is your hearing and how it matters to your system. For example I cannot hear about 10K. A child can hear it all even when the headphones are turned way way down.
37. The Audio Gurus: invaluable opinions and knowledge. Invaluable. And such nice people.
38. A history of music reproduction and some false starts
39. How transistor radios affected music when radiograms were so good.
40. Why vinyl?
41. Wires do matter, I have experienced it myself with a phone to car stereo audio cable
42. Listening in mono to save money
43. As you got older you got better at listening and enjoying music. Not loud music, music.
44. Books to buy.
45. Areas to experiment in
46. Recordings are made with low end speakers and headphones in mind, they do not mind.
47. Headphones vs speakers: feel the bass.
48. Diminishing returns? Really, in what way?
49. Are million dollar systems thousands of time better, what's the deal on that?
50. "We should not criticize people listening on low end systems" .
52. Are million dollar cars better than thousand dollar cars?
53. Draw your ideal system and project it through time . Project the costs also.
54. Learning to listen to music and review systems after all you will review systems before you buy, right?
55. Anything else.
Start with the speakers. I do not have the space + time + skills to build these in a few weeks. Contracting out the build may result in delays and cost around US $ 30 in any case, without the grilles and drivers, add another $20 for that.
Purchasing a set of used speakers seems a good option. Smaller bookshelf speakers have sufficient quality for my listening, so sound quality is not a problem. I have always been an admirer of the Polk range of speakers (due to advertising and appearance, not experience) and I found a pair that will ship to where I live for total cost of $138. How can this be paid for? Financing the purchase with a personal loan over a period of 7 years will result in a monthly payment of about $2 to $3. Not a lot of money, and affordable for almost anyone.
Polk Audio Model T15 Bookshelf Speakers Black Pair Tested Sound Great
What is the best place to put these bookshelf speakers? On a bookshelf of course. There is a TV stand available on the right side, a small table could be used instead. The speakers are artificially highlighted in red, this is not their color. If the Polk speakers are bigger than this something will have to be done.
The tweeters must be at ear level, and direct as possible. Angling the speakers and moving them apart will give whats left of a sound stage in this configuration.
EDIT: This review suggest that the speakers are best heard off- axis, which is somewhat of a boon. There may be better speakers overall, but using digital sources: CDs. mp3 copied to CDs will produce enough clarity for enjoyable listening: lack of bass is the most serious drawback of a small speaker and this does not seem to be the case.
Another review:
Purchasing a set of used speakers seems a good option. Smaller bookshelf speakers have sufficient quality for my listening, so sound quality is not a problem. I have always been an admirer of the Polk range of speakers (due to advertising and appearance, not experience) and I found a pair that will ship to where I live for total cost of $138. How can this be paid for? Financing the purchase with a personal loan over a period of 7 years will result in a monthly payment of about $2 to $3. Not a lot of money, and affordable for almost anyone.
Polk Audio Model T15 Bookshelf Speakers Black Pair Tested Sound Great
What is the best place to put these bookshelf speakers? On a bookshelf of course. There is a TV stand available on the right side, a small table could be used instead. The speakers are artificially highlighted in red, this is not their color. If the Polk speakers are bigger than this something will have to be done.
The tweeters must be at ear level, and direct as possible. Angling the speakers and moving them apart will give whats left of a sound stage in this configuration.
EDIT: This review suggest that the speakers are best heard off- axis, which is somewhat of a boon. There may be better speakers overall, but using digital sources: CDs. mp3 copied to CDs will produce enough clarity for enjoyable listening: lack of bass is the most serious drawback of a small speaker and this does not seem to be the case.
Another review:
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Jeez…. If you have to finance $138 and worry whether a $2 a month payment over 7 years is going to break the budget, you REALLY can’t afford it. If stuff is alway getting broken and other priorities eat all the funds before $138 can be amassed at one time maybe you ought to just re-think it.
I remember all too well when I had a $35 cap on anything for those reasons. All electronics was salvage or not at all.
I remember all too well when I had a $35 cap on anything for those reasons. All electronics was salvage or not at all.
Absolutely, it's very foolish to take out a loan on a luxury item that won't even last the term of the loan.
Just buy something cheap for cash from a resale shop or Craigslist.
Just buy something cheap for cash from a resale shop or Craigslist.
I probably will not go that route, however I brought this up with two purposes in mind: the first is that in the RMAF 15 forum "Affordability : How Low Can You Go?" (first video 33:55) the comment was made: "..as Steve said last year, 500 bucks is a staggering amount of money for someone who is curious" If it is the $500 that is stopping someone from getting into Hi-Fi or better audio systems, the same cannot be said about $2 a month. So the affordability argument is essentially gone. If the 'buy, try and sell' method was promoted or made popular by an enterprising financier ( some Hi-Fi stores do have installment payment plans) .
The other reason is that the "WAF" applies to the cost dimension as well, so establishing a cost floor of $2 a month will either meet with acceptance or rejection in favor of a less cheap method of purchasing Hi-Fi. No offence to the W, however, this is a huge factor for some.
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