Clausen, I would also read the article on cables in here...
http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_16_r.pdf
Page 39, it shows quite clearly that differences in cables can be measured.
By the way impressive rants may I say, brightened my day.🙂
http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_16_r.pdf
Page 39, it shows quite clearly that differences in cables can be measured.
By the way impressive rants may I say, brightened my day.🙂
OK, you reject science. That is OK. Just don't expect your comments on anything related to science (including audio electronics) to be taken seriously by anyone.Clausen said:
Who has "attacked" Joe? Who has questioned his character? All we have done is challenge some of his beliefs about the effect of an added capacitor. When we ask for evidence all we get is anecdote. When we ask for explanation all we get is woffle. When we attempt to explain things ourselves we find the goalposts are moved.
Why do you feel the need to be his self-appointed protector?
Its a good article and one that illustrates quite often the objective outlook to audio, which is putting thing in perspective, investigating and determining how audible something is... Not getting over excited at the next new big thing....
🙂
Nice to read an Audio publication that is grounded more in reality, today they seem to be lacking with many revues sounding so similar I wonder whether there is an industry template for product revues.....
🙂
Nice to read an Audio publication that is grounded more in reality, today they seem to be lacking with many revues sounding so similar I wonder whether there is an industry template for product revues.....
Hi Joe
I`ve seen you have tried to reinvigorate this almost dead thread... And you succeed it...
It came many posts and interesting discussions about "wives in the kitchen", anecdotes, cables, way to do the tests, and so on... Really exciting!
This trick with this cap across the (analogue) audio differential lines just works! Very nice indeed. I use it with success. I got the same ("wives in the kitchen" types) feedbacks from my customers, who confirm what I can hear also myself.
The space of the soundstage and its quality it can be also controlled by using the appropriate cap value...
As I can see, some peoples chose to discuss around this subject, heaving all kind of ideas, or even (alien) explanations. Someone else chose to implement it, use it, and/or enjoying this way of filtering, or what it may be.
Recommended to everyone who can use a soldering iron, knowing where to solder this cap...
I`ve seen you have tried to reinvigorate this almost dead thread... And you succeed it...
It came many posts and interesting discussions about "wives in the kitchen", anecdotes, cables, way to do the tests, and so on... Really exciting!
This trick with this cap across the (analogue) audio differential lines just works! Very nice indeed. I use it with success. I got the same ("wives in the kitchen" types) feedbacks from my customers, who confirm what I can hear also myself.
The space of the soundstage and its quality it can be also controlled by using the appropriate cap value...
As I can see, some peoples chose to discuss around this subject, heaving all kind of ideas, or even (alien) explanations. Someone else chose to implement it, use it, and/or enjoying this way of filtering, or what it may be.
Recommended to everyone who can use a soldering iron, knowing where to solder this cap...
I guess you take that attitude to poisons too? Or ionising radiation? Or large predators with big teeth? Just try it, experience it - then, if you are still alive, understand it later.Coris said:
If you are suggesting that only those who can hear this mod are fit to discuss its circuit mechanism then you are merely repeating a silly idea from earlier in the thread.
The added cap clearly has a filtering effect (as you admit, but Joe does not). The puzzle is why he persisted in claiming that it was not a filter but instead did something subtle (and unexplained) probably in interaction with the DAC output circuit (despite it apparently working with very different DAC architectures). At times it felt like he preferred mystery to explanation.
I also think it is a filter because scope shows a lot of hf noise after first I/V stage from ES9018 dac, which is than attenuated and filtered in another stage. But with cap it is no hf noise anymore at first opamp input...so maybe is that hf noise a reason for difference in sound.
For my ears sound is more relaxed, details are easy hearable, soundstage maybe deeper than hearable wider.
For my ears sound is more relaxed, details are easy hearable, soundstage maybe deeper than hearable wider.
You just exaggerate a lot... Nobody die of trying this cap. I can write a tutorial here about how to use a soldering iron, if you may need it...
I can't use a soldering iron as I dribble too much, and my hands are damaged from scraping them along the floor.
As I could see in connection with this discussed here subject, there is an intention from enough many to explain something they never experienced by themselves, based only on theoretical knowledge, and some informations from other`s experiences (which may vary in accuracy). In my opinion this it can generate some understanding problems/issues for those involved, or misunderstandings. However, this is not the right way to do it... Fortunately, in this case everything is reproducible, easy to be implemented, and easy to notice the results (minimal investments).
The discussion on what is this cap over differential lines, a filter or not, it explain anything at all in this case.
Assuming the main function of a component is predominant comparing with the parasitic elements/factors, a cap into a signal path it does a filtering function. A resistor it have a attenuation function and a inductor it have both. There is no any discussion about these basics. We have to only admit that it is like this, and I`m pretty sure Joe does too.
So, the discussion about what function it have this cap is out of this interest area, and one may not insist in this direction, as it goes nowhere.
The understanding problem here is how a cap and its main/ideal filtering function over the involved signals, it can result in a improved soundscene, as some other improvements experienced by those who implemented this way of filtering.
Even more, what is a soundscene, when to relate this human perception element to facts, theoretical explanations, figures, measurements, and so on? What is or it may be a mathematical/physical definition of this perceptual soundstage? How, what to measure it, and what to search for into the signal(s) to find such elements which may define a soudscene?
What impact it may have a filtering element over a differential audio signal to improve it (perceptual)? What is to be filtered here to have such results?
We do have answers to these questions? NO!
This it may still be clarified, explained, discussed. but not what is this cap, a filter or not...
Joe have said the same in another way. This cap it does its function and it does in the same time something more (it improve the soundscene, etc). What it does more, or what it may be the filtering mechanism involved here is not explained yet so far.
This was the main reason I started the previous thread as this one too. To discuss about the possible ways a such filtering element it may function in this particular case.
As known the previous discussion (previous thread) degenerate into personal attacks, because the understanding issues mentioned above, and the thread was closed. As I can see, some similar discussion elements are still be promoted in this present discussion here too, and this is regrettable. Such it not mean to explain anything at all, but is only waste of time, discussing about nothing.
The discussion on what is this cap over differential lines, a filter or not, it explain anything at all in this case.
Assuming the main function of a component is predominant comparing with the parasitic elements/factors, a cap into a signal path it does a filtering function. A resistor it have a attenuation function and a inductor it have both. There is no any discussion about these basics. We have to only admit that it is like this, and I`m pretty sure Joe does too.
So, the discussion about what function it have this cap is out of this interest area, and one may not insist in this direction, as it goes nowhere.
The understanding problem here is how a cap and its main/ideal filtering function over the involved signals, it can result in a improved soundscene, as some other improvements experienced by those who implemented this way of filtering.
Even more, what is a soundscene, when to relate this human perception element to facts, theoretical explanations, figures, measurements, and so on? What is or it may be a mathematical/physical definition of this perceptual soundstage? How, what to measure it, and what to search for into the signal(s) to find such elements which may define a soudscene?
What impact it may have a filtering element over a differential audio signal to improve it (perceptual)? What is to be filtered here to have such results?
We do have answers to these questions? NO!
This it may still be clarified, explained, discussed. but not what is this cap, a filter or not...
Joe have said the same in another way. This cap it does its function and it does in the same time something more (it improve the soundscene, etc). What it does more, or what it may be the filtering mechanism involved here is not explained yet so far.
This was the main reason I started the previous thread as this one too. To discuss about the possible ways a such filtering element it may function in this particular case.
As known the previous discussion (previous thread) degenerate into personal attacks, because the understanding issues mentioned above, and the thread was closed. As I can see, some similar discussion elements are still be promoted in this present discussion here too, and this is regrettable. Such it not mean to explain anything at all, but is only waste of time, discussing about nothing.
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Well, we have made some progress as some of Joe' supporters (but not Joe himself?) have admitted that this is a filter. However, you still seem to be pushing the line that an explanation can only follow personal experience. I wish people would drop this silliness.
It may be that the cap is removing HF which would otherwise confuse the following opamp.
It may be that the cap is inserting a broad HF peak just above the audio range which would affect the phase in the audio range, and probably slightly damage the stereo image (if the two channels are rendered less identical).
It may be that the cap is producing a gentle HF rolloff which is smoothing the sound.
All these are conventional circuit explanations, none of which require the explainer to actually hear the alleged effect for himself. Non-circuit explanations can be ignored, as the effect of adding a component to a circuit is subject to circuit theory explanations whether we like it or not.
It may be that the cap does nothing audible at all.
I am puzzled that people are so non-curious about whether it works, and how it works.
It may be that the cap is removing HF which would otherwise confuse the following opamp.
It may be that the cap is inserting a broad HF peak just above the audio range which would affect the phase in the audio range, and probably slightly damage the stereo image (if the two channels are rendered less identical).
It may be that the cap is producing a gentle HF rolloff which is smoothing the sound.
All these are conventional circuit explanations, none of which require the explainer to actually hear the alleged effect for himself. Non-circuit explanations can be ignored, as the effect of adding a component to a circuit is subject to circuit theory explanations whether we like it or not.
It may be that the cap does nothing audible at all.
I am puzzled that people are so non-curious about whether it works, and how it works.
Off course an explanation of one or another it can not necessary follow to a personal experience. If you understood so from my previous text, then you understood wrong. However, a personal experience, which it may even mean to simple verify/analyse some of the elements to be explained, it have to be in the field of the procedure...
You can not explain something without taking a pen and a piece of paper, a calculator, or something like this to do some own calculations, to see the system to be analysed using your own knowledge, before conclude a possible explanation. Right?
The same in this case too: one can first and simple solder these caps in place in a own device, to verify first if the stated behaviour is a fact or not, hearing the results, interpreting these results based on his particular knowledge, eventual do some measurements, and come to some conclusions.
There were guys here who pretend that what we hear and describe are only impressions, imaginations, placebo, and so on... Such way of "explaining" is definitely wrong and/or stupid.
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So placing a capacitor across signal to signal ground?
I tried this once, made the sound grainy. Whatever little improvements of filtering where not worth it.
Perhaps if the capacitor dipped into the hearing range the dip in source impedance improved the drivability of the amp?
Quality of ground noise and input capacitors greatly control imaging, soudscape. The information is fragile. My own playing with bypass caps has shown me this greatly given that I don't buy the $400 Teflon units.
I tried this once, made the sound grainy. Whatever little improvements of filtering where not worth it.
Perhaps if the capacitor dipped into the hearing range the dip in source impedance improved the drivability of the amp?
Quality of ground noise and input capacitors greatly control imaging, soudscape. The information is fragile. My own playing with bypass caps has shown me this greatly given that I don't buy the $400 Teflon units.
This cap is to be placed over the two phases of the DAC chip differential out. Two such caps for stereo. Not to ground, but in between +/- outputs.
It worked for me for both ES9018 and PCM1792/4. The optimal value have to be establish it experimental, as it is function of the host circuit configuration. Better to start with small values first. Or whatever, up to your inspiration...
It worked for me for both ES9018 and PCM1792/4. The optimal value have to be establish it experimental, as it is function of the host circuit configuration. Better to start with small values first. Or whatever, up to your inspiration...
@DF96: Give in Coris is a true believer. So much so when the first thread on this (that he started) was closed he started this one.
Logic, science and sanity left the room a long time ago to be replaced by a case study in the rabid subjectivist on the internet.
Logic, science and sanity left the room a long time ago to be replaced by a case study in the rabid subjectivist on the internet.
Well, as I can see you introduce a new OT element in this discussion...
The previous thread was not closed because I started the thread or because of the subject in discussion, but because the discussions degenerate in personal attacks, as some other aspects which was out of the forum rules...
So, please do not blend all these together to fit well to your particular "explanation" about how the things works...
Else, I can hardly see what it consist your contribution to the subject in discussion here...
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OK Your grasp of english is not perfect, but I did not accuse you of any of that. Just that you so want to spread the word that you immediately opened a new thread when your other one that you started was closed. This is fact. Nothing to do with fitting my explanation, but a pretty good indication of how completely besotted with this mod you are and closed to rational discussion.
Sorry, but I still hardly see/read about that your "rational discussion" or contribution, you refer to... The closed thread and the opening of a new one, it have nothing to do with this way of filtering in (a supposed) discussion here.
Coris, why are you wedded to the idea that ordinary engineering principles don't explain this effect? As I said the reduction of out of band spurious signals is easily measured.
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