OK, I have been reading around here for a long time... posting very little and not building much of anything. So against all good advice and common sense, I am going "all in" on my first decent project and attempting to build what will be the ultimate speaker for me, personally.
The long version can be found over here:
Javelin - a high end journey into digital active speaker systems
The short version is that I got inspired by Jeff B's Kairos project and drew inspiration from some of my favorite speakers (AR, Harbeth, AudioPhysic), and then tried to design my own version of a substantial tower speaker with a cool modern design. CNC shop is getting ready to make saw dust over the next few days and I am getting ready for the big assembly, epoxy, sanding and painting exercise to kick off in a couple of weekends.
Please fire away with anything, good or bad, nice or mean... I am a bit bored while I wait for parts, so take me to task on anything you can think of. 🙂
Materials:
● Raka marine epoxy
● Baltic Birch plywood (60 x 60 x 3⁄4 sheets, which are actually 18mm but seem to measure
around 0.69 inches thick)
● Duplicolor spray paints and primers:
○ HWP101 Silver, HWP102 Graphite, HWP103 Clear, and CP199 Adhesion Promoter Clear Primer
● Drivers: (with some general crossover targets...not in stone by any stretch)
○ Highs: SB Acoustics Satori TW29R 1” tweeter, 1.8 - 20 kHz
○ Upper Mids: Morel EM1308, 2” mid dome, 800 - 1,800 Hz
○ Lower Mids: SB Acoustics Satori MW16P-4, 6.5” mid-bass, 250 - 800 Hz
○ Bass: Vifa NE315W-08, 12” woofer, 25 - 250 Hz
The long version can be found over here:
Javelin - a high end journey into digital active speaker systems
The short version is that I got inspired by Jeff B's Kairos project and drew inspiration from some of my favorite speakers (AR, Harbeth, AudioPhysic), and then tried to design my own version of a substantial tower speaker with a cool modern design. CNC shop is getting ready to make saw dust over the next few days and I am getting ready for the big assembly, epoxy, sanding and painting exercise to kick off in a couple of weekends.
Please fire away with anything, good or bad, nice or mean... I am a bit bored while I wait for parts, so take me to task on anything you can think of. 🙂
Materials:
● Raka marine epoxy
● Baltic Birch plywood (60 x 60 x 3⁄4 sheets, which are actually 18mm but seem to measure
around 0.69 inches thick)
● Duplicolor spray paints and primers:
○ HWP101 Silver, HWP102 Graphite, HWP103 Clear, and CP199 Adhesion Promoter Clear Primer
● Drivers: (with some general crossover targets...not in stone by any stretch)
○ Highs: SB Acoustics Satori TW29R 1” tweeter, 1.8 - 20 kHz
○ Upper Mids: Morel EM1308, 2” mid dome, 800 - 1,800 Hz
○ Lower Mids: SB Acoustics Satori MW16P-4, 6.5” mid-bass, 250 - 800 Hz
○ Bass: Vifa NE315W-08, 12” woofer, 25 - 250 Hz
Attachments
Last edited:
I am going to be using a miniDSP 4x10 Hd along with a Dayton MA1260 for crossover and power respectively. I will be just doing the very basic stuff first, then reaching out Charlie Laub for help with the very latest in ACD, and otherwise scouring the net for any and all help in getting the very best out of the 4x10 and my drivers.
Any pointers here are most welcome. I have the mic and REW software from miniDSP as well and will be using a MacBook to get everything configured.
Any pointers here are most welcome. I have the mic and REW software from miniDSP as well and will be using a MacBook to get everything configured.
Attachments
I don't see a need for the mid dome with the Satori but hey, that's just me. Your design work is excellent and I have no doubt it will be one hell of a speaker!
Thanks guys. Yeah, a fair number of folks have called out the mid dome, and it is a good point. I think another valid angle here is just running the Vifa 12 inch woofer up to 700 Hz and then crossing to the mid dome, and then crossing to a 3/4 inch tweeter rather than something like the Satori.
I can pull the mid dome, move the tweeter up in its place, and then patch things up and re-paint if I find things difficult to manage. I am hoping that the more limited passband for each driver translates to ultra clean sound even at high volume, and that it also translates to extremely consistent directivity and power response.
I didn't want to push the tweeter down below 1.8 kHz, though I do intend to test some options all the way down to 1.2 kHz... but if I wind up at 1.8 kHz, I wanted to have a dome mid come next because 1) I love mid domes, 2) The directivity profile and sonic attributes of the mid dome must, in my mind anyways, more closely track the dome tweeter and thus increase the chances of my transition between these two drivers being as optimum as possible, 3) I had 4 channels of DSP and wanted to get my moneys worth since I have no immediate plans for subs.
Yes, I know the Satori mid-bass is fine up to 3k easily, but I wanted to limit its role to lower mids only despite the great success that Jeff B. and Joachim G. had with blending the two Satori drivers together in their monitor designs.
Not the best defense I know, but I just like the idea of keeping cone drivers under 1.2 kHz if possible. No valid science here, just my own mind games.
I can pull the mid dome, move the tweeter up in its place, and then patch things up and re-paint if I find things difficult to manage. I am hoping that the more limited passband for each driver translates to ultra clean sound even at high volume, and that it also translates to extremely consistent directivity and power response.
I didn't want to push the tweeter down below 1.8 kHz, though I do intend to test some options all the way down to 1.2 kHz... but if I wind up at 1.8 kHz, I wanted to have a dome mid come next because 1) I love mid domes, 2) The directivity profile and sonic attributes of the mid dome must, in my mind anyways, more closely track the dome tweeter and thus increase the chances of my transition between these two drivers being as optimum as possible, 3) I had 4 channels of DSP and wanted to get my moneys worth since I have no immediate plans for subs.
Yes, I know the Satori mid-bass is fine up to 3k easily, but I wanted to limit its role to lower mids only despite the great success that Jeff B. and Joachim G. had with blending the two Satori drivers together in their monitor designs.
Not the best defense I know, but I just like the idea of keeping cone drivers under 1.2 kHz if possible. No valid science here, just my own mind games.
Man, it's get cold already in MN. Best of luck to you. This is going to be an awesome winter project.
The Satori may be one of the best-performing mid-woofers on the market, but nothing will change the fact that it is only a 6.5" mid-woofer, nothing more, nothing less. You gain on two things by passing at 800 Hz:
1) The well-known dip at 1.3 kHz is not in passband
2) Power response at the crossover is improved since at 1.8 kHz (presumably the crossover point you would use if you did not have the upper mid) the mid-woofer has already started to beam.
I say stay with what you have. Perhaps also review this work, if you haven't already:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193689-build-thread-ardor-point-source-monitor.html
Just be careful about the comb filtering between the tweeter and the dome since the C-C distance is not insignificant. Consider routing out the sizeable mounting flange(s) of the dome and/or tweeter, to get them as close together as possible.
1) The well-known dip at 1.3 kHz is not in passband
2) Power response at the crossover is improved since at 1.8 kHz (presumably the crossover point you would use if you did not have the upper mid) the mid-woofer has already started to beam.
I say stay with what you have. Perhaps also review this work, if you haven't already:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193689-build-thread-ardor-point-source-monitor.html
Just be careful about the comb filtering between the tweeter and the dome since the C-C distance is not insignificant. Consider routing out the sizeable mounting flange(s) of the dome and/or tweeter, to get them as close together as possible.
Last edited:
Could I possibly interest you in using a different bass driver? Is it possible to return them?
Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum
Different size, but same series. I would hate for you to be disappointed through no fault of your own.
Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum
Different size, but same series. I would hate for you to be disappointed through no fault of your own.
tf1216,
Yeah, what was with this morning? Felt like mid october already, what a bummer.
454Casull,
Thanks for the link and the feedback. It is always interesting to see the different perspectives on C-T-C between drivers and the associated crossover points. I did entertain the idea of cutting into the frames a bit on both mid dome and tweet, but decided in the end that I would prefer to leave them alone and take my chances. I have mounted them about as close as one could, and think that it will be OK. At my crossover point and given the flange of the mid-dome being at 5 inches OD, I am as safe as any small two way monitor out there.
The woofers are not superstars in the low end department, but I wanted my bass response down to 30 Hz to be as tight and tuneful as possible. I thought they would be as seamless a match for the Satori mid-bass as possible. If I decide I want a bit more grunt below 30 Hz then I will build a monster sub, but in general I am not really a fan of subwoofers or high mass / high excursion woofers (edit: OK, these vifa woofers are not exactly low mass either...did I mention they were on sale when I bought them, $175 each). The link you gave me regarding the woofers stopped at a account/login page, so I am curious as to what you were recommending? I do agree though, in terms of pure bass performance there are many better choices out there, but the feedback I found on these were right up my alley and I am hoping that by having two of them per side that I get enough total displacement to keep up with the rest of the system. I am going to put a steep subsonic filter on them starting at 25 Hz so I don't have to worry about them bottoming out when I am watching movies.
Yeah, what was with this morning? Felt like mid october already, what a bummer.
454Casull,
Thanks for the link and the feedback. It is always interesting to see the different perspectives on C-T-C between drivers and the associated crossover points. I did entertain the idea of cutting into the frames a bit on both mid dome and tweet, but decided in the end that I would prefer to leave them alone and take my chances. I have mounted them about as close as one could, and think that it will be OK. At my crossover point and given the flange of the mid-dome being at 5 inches OD, I am as safe as any small two way monitor out there.
The woofers are not superstars in the low end department, but I wanted my bass response down to 30 Hz to be as tight and tuneful as possible. I thought they would be as seamless a match for the Satori mid-bass as possible. If I decide I want a bit more grunt below 30 Hz then I will build a monster sub, but in general I am not really a fan of subwoofers or high mass / high excursion woofers (edit: OK, these vifa woofers are not exactly low mass either...did I mention they were on sale when I bought them, $175 each). The link you gave me regarding the woofers stopped at a account/login page, so I am curious as to what you were recommending? I do agree though, in terms of pure bass performance there are many better choices out there, but the feedback I found on these were right up my alley and I am hoping that by having two of them per side that I get enough total displacement to keep up with the rest of the system. I am going to put a steep subsonic filter on them starting at 25 Hz so I don't have to worry about them bottoming out when I am watching movies.
Last edited:
Yes this is strange, I've heard the NE225 and despite it's rather bad measurements it played a very tuneful and enjoyable bass even at higher volumes. As I said, strange...
In my view. I would do the following.
If you want a narrow soundfield, with less reflections, then use a horn with two 6-8" SB, and cross at around 2Khz. And cross at around maybe 150-200hz to your 12" Vifa's.
If you want a 4 way - then i would use 1" tweeter, 4-5" mid, two 6-8" mid-bass and 12" subs. Crossed at 150hz, 800 and 3-4Khz.
This would give easy crossing in the critical midrange/tweeter area and some surface area to move air in the rytmical midbass area.
A 1" dome tweeter at 1800hz will miss headroom - surface area - especially when you use two 12" bas drivers. There need to be balance between all the drivers, for the speaker to sound good - in my experince.
A dome upper mid, with a tweeter would just complicate things, and a 6" will have difficulties moving air below 400hz - considering your choice of two 12" bas drivers.
And 12" hifi-drivers rarely sound good above 200-300hz.
But again this is just my opinion and experience 🙂
Further more, use a good strong PA-like amplifier for the bass section. Bass performance requires grunt, raw power and the like - which i rarely find in classic hifi amplifiers - at least within my price range
If you want a narrow soundfield, with less reflections, then use a horn with two 6-8" SB, and cross at around 2Khz. And cross at around maybe 150-200hz to your 12" Vifa's.
If you want a 4 way - then i would use 1" tweeter, 4-5" mid, two 6-8" mid-bass and 12" subs. Crossed at 150hz, 800 and 3-4Khz.
This would give easy crossing in the critical midrange/tweeter area and some surface area to move air in the rytmical midbass area.
A 1" dome tweeter at 1800hz will miss headroom - surface area - especially when you use two 12" bas drivers. There need to be balance between all the drivers, for the speaker to sound good - in my experince.
A dome upper mid, with a tweeter would just complicate things, and a 6" will have difficulties moving air below 400hz - considering your choice of two 12" bas drivers.
And 12" hifi-drivers rarely sound good above 200-300hz.
But again this is just my opinion and experience 🙂
Further more, use a good strong PA-like amplifier for the bass section. Bass performance requires grunt, raw power and the like - which i rarely find in classic hifi amplifiers - at least within my price range
Yes, user feedback like this is what helped me pull the trigger on these, as well as a "good starting point" comment from Joachim G. when talking about a good woofer to match up with the Satori mid-bass in a 3-way design.
More so than the excursion limits, there is a large dip down low that has me a bit concerned, but we shall see if it is really that noticeable or not.
When I was just looking for a good 8 inch woofer, for a different design concept I was tinkering around with, the NE225 made the short list. Yes, I do wish I have some more experience under my belt with some prototype builds and experimenting with a few different types of woofers, but I don't have the time/money to do it right, so I depended on the feedback of others, some of whom are fairly well known in terms of how they align with my own experiences.
In my view. I would do the following.
If you want a narrow soundfield, with less reflections, then use a horn with two 6-8" SB, and cross at around 2Khz. And cross at around maybe 150-200hz to your 12" Vifa's.
If you want a 4 way - then i would use 1" tweeter, 4-5" mid, two 6-8" mid-bass and 12" subs. Crossed at 150hz, 800 and 3-4Khz.
This would give easy crossing in the critical midrange/tweeter area and some surface area to move air in the rytmical midbass area.
A 1" dome tweeter at 1800hz will miss headroom - surface area - especially when you use two 12" bas drivers. There need to be balance between all the drivers, for the speaker to sound good - in my experince.
A dome upper mid, with a tweeter would just complicate things, and a 6" will have difficulties moving air below 400hz - considering your choice of two 12" bas drivers.
And 12" hifi-drivers rarely sound good above 200-300hz.
But again this is just my opinion and experience 🙂
Further more, use a good strong PA-like amplifier for the bass section. Bass performance requires grunt, raw power and the like - which i rarely find in classic hifi amplifiers - at least within my price range
The limited feedback I have found however does seem to indicate that the NE315 will do quite fine up to 600 Hz or even higher... and other feedback seems to indicate the Satori will go really really loud when relieved from duty at 150 Hz and below... so even though I agree with most of your guidelines above, I think I am OK here... 400 Hz is kind of high for a mid-bass, I would argue that this may apply to dedicated midranges since many of them start to show strain at 300 Hz since they are purposefully low excursion high compliance transducers... but not a good mid-bass driver with an Fs under 50 Hz. In most cases I think such drivers do quite well at 100 Hz and up, and do really well at 200 Hz and up.
I like your suggestion for a 4-way, and I am fairly close to it actually. Rather than a 4-5 inch cone, I have a 2 inch dome that easily handles the 800 Hz and up zone you identified. I actually thought long and hard about going with a different tweeter and having it cross to the mid-dome up around 4 kHz, but in the end I just knew I wanted the Satori tweeter. It can cross lower than many, but I think by experimenting in the 1.8 to 2.2 kHz range I will have plenty of power handling in the tweeter. It does "short change" the mid-dome contribution and that is why many have commented that they question the value of the mid-dome in my design, so I am cool with that. Your woofer zone is only a little lower than mine, so we are close there as well. I do think the concern over the mid-bass keeping up with the dual woofers is a good one and I will be experimenting with various crossover points to see how that may come into play.
I would take your narrow soundfield suggestion even further...and I almost did in fact end up with this design: AST2560 in a Pellegrene 8x12 waveguide running 1.2 kHz and up, with good consistent controlled directivity right down to the crossover point, Seas 8 inch curv cone above and below, and then Rythmik servo 8 top and bottom. Various delays and concerns had me abandoning this idea, but I do want to take a stab at a waveguide speaker at some point... maybe a mid size monitor for my home studio.
Thanks for the feedback thus far. It is all good and has me thinking further about the potential weaknesses I need to look at when I do the crossover and at the same time reminding me why I was feeling pretty good about my final decisions here. We all just do what feels right for us at the end of the day, but there is tremendous value in the different perspectives that others bring to the table.
Last edited:
Yes. 400 hz is higher than usual for a midbass. But that is because I like to use 5" midrange or smaller - because they are easier to integrate with a tweeter, so that less beaming is taking place. But that is for a more wide listing spot - which I prefer sometimes.
Current system consist of 12" XXLS for sub, 3x 18W for midbass, Accuton T8-82(5") midrange and Morel supreme tweeter. Everything controlled by groundsound DSP.
125, 400 and 3000hz
But for fun, I'm currently trying the smallest horn from SICA, surrounded by 2 x 8" SICA drivers - only reusing 12" my sub.
150hz and 1800hz.
Off course this gives alot more gain (higher sensitivity), but the sound is also way more narrow, smaller sweetspot. But the sense of "being there", is seductive - when using PA drivers, I must admit 😀
With DSP - the delay issue and difference in gain - is a no brainer. Further more, a DSP makes it very easy to try different speaker configurations.
Another consideration for me, could be to have an extra set of 12" for subs. Since the physical feeling of bass, produced by speakers with sufficient headroom, makes for a more intense and lively listening experience.
The NE drivers might be good up to 600hz, but that may be because the drivers dont go that deep. Fx the 26W from SS, is by my experience, no good above 350hz. Maybe because it goes low.
I agree that most good tweeters like your satori, my morel and others, in theory can go very low. But I my ears they begin to sound strained, when crossed lower than 2-2200hz. They also seem to miss "physique" when crossed low. Which is why I like the smaller midrange drivers to fill in, in that area.
How would your driver arrangement lay out?
Current system consist of 12" XXLS for sub, 3x 18W for midbass, Accuton T8-82(5") midrange and Morel supreme tweeter. Everything controlled by groundsound DSP.
125, 400 and 3000hz
But for fun, I'm currently trying the smallest horn from SICA, surrounded by 2 x 8" SICA drivers - only reusing 12" my sub.
150hz and 1800hz.
Off course this gives alot more gain (higher sensitivity), but the sound is also way more narrow, smaller sweetspot. But the sense of "being there", is seductive - when using PA drivers, I must admit 😀
With DSP - the delay issue and difference in gain - is a no brainer. Further more, a DSP makes it very easy to try different speaker configurations.
Another consideration for me, could be to have an extra set of 12" for subs. Since the physical feeling of bass, produced by speakers with sufficient headroom, makes for a more intense and lively listening experience.
The NE drivers might be good up to 600hz, but that may be because the drivers dont go that deep. Fx the 26W from SS, is by my experience, no good above 350hz. Maybe because it goes low.
I agree that most good tweeters like your satori, my morel and others, in theory can go very low. But I my ears they begin to sound strained, when crossed lower than 2-2200hz. They also seem to miss "physique" when crossed low. Which is why I like the smaller midrange drivers to fill in, in that area.
How would your driver arrangement lay out?
and I was thinking I was in over my head with my own 3 (or 4) way OB design; (well I still do 
, and on some days even worse 
). you should have a better reference to others having modelled or crossed&measured the same drivers on a similar baffle, to have a reasonable chance of success. having XO points so closely spaced you run a risk of HP and LP filters interfering with each other lessening the chance of a predictable outcome. what software will you use to model the active XOs?
, and on some days even worse ). you should have a better reference to others having modelled or crossed&measured the same drivers on a similar baffle, to have a reasonable chance of success. having XO points so closely spaced you run a risk of HP and LP filters interfering with each other lessening the chance of a predictable outcome. what software will you use to model the active XOs?Koja,
I am using the standard plugin with miniDSP 4x10. I haven't fired it up yet, but will get to it in the next week or two...
Tordenguden,
Thanks for all the feedback, and your system sounds quite nice as well. I agree about the SS bass. I actually tried to get two 26W drivers early on via a used private sale, but that didn't work out. The cost for them new was a bit much for me and then the sale on the Vifa had me reaching for four of them. I am still happy with this decision and I guess I will know soon enough if the bass will be satisfying on this this design or not.
I have a lot of room to experiment with crossover points between mid-bass, mid-dome, and tweeter.... so I will play around a bit and see what happens once I get to the crossover stage in about 3 weeks.
I am using the standard plugin with miniDSP 4x10. I haven't fired it up yet, but will get to it in the next week or two...
Tordenguden,
Thanks for all the feedback, and your system sounds quite nice as well. I agree about the SS bass. I actually tried to get two 26W drivers early on via a used private sale, but that didn't work out. The cost for them new was a bit much for me and then the sale on the Vifa had me reaching for four of them. I am still happy with this decision and I guess I will know soon enough if the bass will be satisfying on this this design or not.
I have a lot of room to experiment with crossover points between mid-bass, mid-dome, and tweeter.... so I will play around a bit and see what happens once I get to the crossover stage in about 3 weeks.
Sawdust!
Well, finally making some progress here and now at the point where I have to do some real work. This is the part that makes me the most nervous as I am not much of a woodworker. So even though the tricky part has been done by machine, I still have sanding and fitting to do, and then of course I need to assemble this as perfectly squared up and true as possible. Before I get to the part of getting it to sound like a true high end speaker, I need it to at least look like a high end speaker, and that will be a challenge for me as I tend to mess up things that require physical skill...
Well, finally making some progress here and now at the point where I have to do some real work. This is the part that makes me the most nervous as I am not much of a woodworker. So even though the tricky part has been done by machine, I still have sanding and fitting to do, and then of course I need to assemble this as perfectly squared up and true as possible. Before I get to the part of getting it to sound like a true high end speaker, I need it to at least look like a high end speaker, and that will be a challenge for me as I tend to mess up things that require physical skill...
Attachments
Looks like a nice front baffle 😉 And yes - loudspeaker woodwork can take a lot of time.
For inspiration in the fine art of building loudspeaker cabinets, I would suggest the following:
DIY-Loudspeakers
And him as well:
Humble Homemade Hifi
A good way to hold the cabinet together, while gluing. Is by using band clamps:
DIY Audio Projects - Hi-Fi Blog for DIY Audiophiles: DIY 2-Way Tower Speakers - Ion
And
https://www.google.dk/search?q=belt...UoAQ#tbm=isch&q=band+clamps+woodwork&imgdii=_
Looking forward to seeing the next steps 🙂
For inspiration in the fine art of building loudspeaker cabinets, I would suggest the following:
DIY-Loudspeakers
And him as well:
Humble Homemade Hifi
A good way to hold the cabinet together, while gluing. Is by using band clamps:
DIY Audio Projects - Hi-Fi Blog for DIY Audiophiles: DIY 2-Way Tower Speakers - Ion
And
https://www.google.dk/search?q=belt...UoAQ#tbm=isch&q=band+clamps+woodwork&imgdii=_
Looking forward to seeing the next steps 🙂
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.