Hi,
I'd like to propose a different term then belief...use of it in
this context confuses me.
So removing the use of the term belief from this process,
I'll describe it a little...
There is a process by which the ear/brain converts sound into
music (ie understanding or meaning). This is the first order of
business IMHO where the ear can lock on to all that is going on
around it. Once it can take this step, there is a large increase
in the ability of the ear to hear very small details and a large
increase in SNR and a lowering of the noise floor.
So call this process...I'm a software guy so call it
meaning or semantics (similiar to how a computer program
parses or recognizes input data).
Once we hit the level where the ear can assign meaning to
a sound, it now has the ability IMHO to hear much deeper into
the sound than any measuring device.
But the ear/brain can do even better. Some second order
processes kick in...
How important is that sound is to us. This
keeps our focus on what it is we are listening to and helps us to
discriminate fine details. The importance of a sound acts as a
filter which again increases SNR and lowers the noise floor.
Then there is the process of familiarity whereby we play
something over and over again. This is also a second order effect
that kicks in and increases our ability to hear fine
details...perhaps by averaging out short term distractions and
keeping what it is we are listening to fresh in our minds.
There are probably other effects as well.
Anyway FWIW,
Mike
I'd like to propose a different term then belief...use of it in
this context confuses me.
So removing the use of the term belief from this process,
I'll describe it a little...
There is a process by which the ear/brain converts sound into
music (ie understanding or meaning). This is the first order of
business IMHO where the ear can lock on to all that is going on
around it. Once it can take this step, there is a large increase
in the ability of the ear to hear very small details and a large
increase in SNR and a lowering of the noise floor.
So call this process...I'm a software guy so call it
meaning or semantics (similiar to how a computer program
parses or recognizes input data).
Once we hit the level where the ear can assign meaning to
a sound, it now has the ability IMHO to hear much deeper into
the sound than any measuring device.
But the ear/brain can do even better. Some second order
processes kick in...
How important is that sound is to us. This
keeps our focus on what it is we are listening to and helps us to
discriminate fine details. The importance of a sound acts as a
filter which again increases SNR and lowers the noise floor.
Then there is the process of familiarity whereby we play
something over and over again. This is also a second order effect
that kicks in and increases our ability to hear fine
details...perhaps by averaging out short term distractions and
keeping what it is we are listening to fresh in our minds.
There are probably other effects as well.
Anyway FWIW,
Mike
Yeah, I think "beliefs" is kind of an abstract term, in this context. I think your point of view is perfectly valid. What we're interested in is the music and the quality of sound (to an audiophile). In fact, I think sometimes audiophiles are more concerned with the quality of sound than the actual music.
And as new sounds become familiar, these patterns start to match up with those stored in our memory and we respond more strongly to them. And as you become more familiar with the sounds, the responses becomes quite strong. The noise which is of no interest is filtered out, assuming the noise is pleasant and not offensive. This should effectively lower the noise floor.
You obviously put this terms you can relate to from personal experience, which I think people need to do. I can definitely relate to what you're saying. It's really good to hear your perspective on this, it helps me understand this process better myself.
The model is kind of abstract and I think many just don't see how it relates to there own personal experiences. We just don't have conscious awareness of these systems.
John
And as new sounds become familiar, these patterns start to match up with those stored in our memory and we respond more strongly to them. And as you become more familiar with the sounds, the responses becomes quite strong. The noise which is of no interest is filtered out, assuming the noise is pleasant and not offensive. This should effectively lower the noise floor.
You obviously put this terms you can relate to from personal experience, which I think people need to do. I can definitely relate to what you're saying. It's really good to hear your perspective on this, it helps me understand this process better myself.
The model is kind of abstract and I think many just don't see how it relates to there own personal experiences. We just don't have conscious awareness of these systems.
John
Save you lungs and get one of those electric bug zappers. 
Mr. Loudenback,
I'm surprised I haven't seen this thread until just now. Then again, I took a short break from this site and just recently began coming back more often (something I always tend to do). I remember several months ago, thinking about starting a thread on tinnitus in this section of the forum. It certainly wouldn't have been as informative on my part as yours (I haven't gone though the trouble of writing a paper or anything).. but most likely a thread for people sharing their experiences, opinions, ideas, and possibly leading to people (like myself) finding help for tinnitus. Curiosity, I guess.. and I always figured it'd generate a good number of interesting responses. But mainly because I'm so fed up with this condition and don't know what to do about it.
Anyway, yeah, I've suffered from tinnitus since I was a young child, but it was never as bad as it is now (I'm 25 now). During recent years, it seems to have gotten MUCH worse than it used to be, causing me severe mental distress (which is something I've always had more than enough of in the first place). The majority of people I come across who say they have this condition state that it isn't loud enough to bother them, and that they can usually only hear it in silence or when they try to focus on it. Well, as previously mentioned, that used to be the case for me. But it's far from that anymore, and hasn't been that way for a long time now (it's pretty loud, always!). As for how long it's been since things got worse, I really haven't the slightest clue. I read that many people can pinpoint an exact time and location in regards to when and where their tinnitus became problematic. Not me though. I can only say that it became much worse, possibly within the last few years. I've also suffered from severe depression and insomnia since childhood, so of course, my tinnitus only aggravates these problems I already had. I gripe about it off and on all day, almost every day.. sometimes even on this forum. I can't sit here at the computer for more than a few seconds without wanting to punch babies in the face or something, so I have to keep music cranked up on the headphones. Even then, I can still hear it, unless I turn it up to a very loud level. However, I usually just keep it at a medium volume level, so that I can at least ignore it somewhat.
At one point, I also seemed to have began suffering from a case of what might have been hyperacusis, but it doesn't seem to be much of a problem anymore, and I'm hopeful that it'll stay that way! Not long ago, I had a big problem with the fan and compressor on our refrigerator, which wanted to run constantly. I often woke up enduring a strange phenomena, with an intense spinning sensation (vertigo?), while the sounds from the refrigerator, along with my tinnitus, would seem extremely loud (Meniere's Disease?). This would continue until as soon as I sat up in bed. Pretty scary, to say the least. Since then, I've had the compressor replaced, and like I said, it doesn't seem to be happening much anymore. The tinnitus is another story though.
As you experienced yourself, I also found that doctors never seemed to have much to say on the subject, and anything they did say was only platitudes, if not worse.. like telling me I've damaged my ears and there's nothing I can do about it. Even an ENT doctor I went to couldn't tell me anything useful, except that my hearing seemed 'normal', and that visit alone cost me $300.
So, I found out about TRT within the last couple of years or so, but I never got my hopes up (I rarely do anyway, lol). I called a local university a couple weeks ago, The Callier Tinnitus and Hyperacusis Clinic at the University of Texas at Dallas, and asked a few basic questions, mainly in regards to pricing information. As expected, I was given several prices for different things of which I don't remember, all in the thousands of dollars. I can't remember exactly how much it would cost, but it was somewhere between $5,000-$10,000 or more for the 'treatment'. There's been so many times over the last few years or so that I often thought I'd give up one of my limbs or something if I could just get rid of this tinnitus. However, I don't have the kind of money they're asking. And even if I did, I'm well aware that the vast majority (if not all) treatments claimed to relieve tinnitus are nothing more than mere guessing games, if not outright scams. Without knowing the root cause of the condition, how can there possibly be an effective treatment? TRT is the only thing I've come across that's managed to provide me with a tiny bit of hope that there might be a slight possibility that I could eventually rid myself of this problem at some point before I die. Unfortunately, it's a lot of money, so I guess I'm out of luck.
I need help, pretty badly. Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
John, thanks for taking the time to do what you've done. I'm very glad you're here.
I'm surprised I haven't seen this thread until just now. Then again, I took a short break from this site and just recently began coming back more often (something I always tend to do). I remember several months ago, thinking about starting a thread on tinnitus in this section of the forum. It certainly wouldn't have been as informative on my part as yours (I haven't gone though the trouble of writing a paper or anything).. but most likely a thread for people sharing their experiences, opinions, ideas, and possibly leading to people (like myself) finding help for tinnitus. Curiosity, I guess.. and I always figured it'd generate a good number of interesting responses. But mainly because I'm so fed up with this condition and don't know what to do about it.
Anyway, yeah, I've suffered from tinnitus since I was a young child, but it was never as bad as it is now (I'm 25 now). During recent years, it seems to have gotten MUCH worse than it used to be, causing me severe mental distress (which is something I've always had more than enough of in the first place). The majority of people I come across who say they have this condition state that it isn't loud enough to bother them, and that they can usually only hear it in silence or when they try to focus on it. Well, as previously mentioned, that used to be the case for me. But it's far from that anymore, and hasn't been that way for a long time now (it's pretty loud, always!). As for how long it's been since things got worse, I really haven't the slightest clue. I read that many people can pinpoint an exact time and location in regards to when and where their tinnitus became problematic. Not me though. I can only say that it became much worse, possibly within the last few years. I've also suffered from severe depression and insomnia since childhood, so of course, my tinnitus only aggravates these problems I already had. I gripe about it off and on all day, almost every day.. sometimes even on this forum. I can't sit here at the computer for more than a few seconds without wanting to punch babies in the face or something, so I have to keep music cranked up on the headphones. Even then, I can still hear it, unless I turn it up to a very loud level. However, I usually just keep it at a medium volume level, so that I can at least ignore it somewhat.
At one point, I also seemed to have began suffering from a case of what might have been hyperacusis, but it doesn't seem to be much of a problem anymore, and I'm hopeful that it'll stay that way! Not long ago, I had a big problem with the fan and compressor on our refrigerator, which wanted to run constantly. I often woke up enduring a strange phenomena, with an intense spinning sensation (vertigo?), while the sounds from the refrigerator, along with my tinnitus, would seem extremely loud (Meniere's Disease?). This would continue until as soon as I sat up in bed. Pretty scary, to say the least. Since then, I've had the compressor replaced, and like I said, it doesn't seem to be happening much anymore. The tinnitus is another story though.
As you experienced yourself, I also found that doctors never seemed to have much to say on the subject, and anything they did say was only platitudes, if not worse.. like telling me I've damaged my ears and there's nothing I can do about it. Even an ENT doctor I went to couldn't tell me anything useful, except that my hearing seemed 'normal', and that visit alone cost me $300.
So, I found out about TRT within the last couple of years or so, but I never got my hopes up (I rarely do anyway, lol). I called a local university a couple weeks ago, The Callier Tinnitus and Hyperacusis Clinic at the University of Texas at Dallas, and asked a few basic questions, mainly in regards to pricing information. As expected, I was given several prices for different things of which I don't remember, all in the thousands of dollars. I can't remember exactly how much it would cost, but it was somewhere between $5,000-$10,000 or more for the 'treatment'. There's been so many times over the last few years or so that I often thought I'd give up one of my limbs or something if I could just get rid of this tinnitus. However, I don't have the kind of money they're asking. And even if I did, I'm well aware that the vast majority (if not all) treatments claimed to relieve tinnitus are nothing more than mere guessing games, if not outright scams. Without knowing the root cause of the condition, how can there possibly be an effective treatment? TRT is the only thing I've come across that's managed to provide me with a tiny bit of hope that there might be a slight possibility that I could eventually rid myself of this problem at some point before I die. Unfortunately, it's a lot of money, so I guess I'm out of luck.
I need help, pretty badly. Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
John, thanks for taking the time to do what you've done. I'm very glad you're here.
BHTX,
Thanks for posting. I can certain identify with how you feel. There are many causes of tinnitus as well as hyperacusis. I don't know if Meniere's can causes tinnitus, or can make it worse. My cousin has Meniere's and he has vertigo on occasion. He had to quit his job. Fortunately he had disability insurance. Hearing loss can also cause tinnitus. Maybe you had some high frequency hearing loss that made your tinnitus worse?
Also, anxiety over the symptoms of tinnitus and hyperacusis can also cause dizziness. I've had some dizziness in the past do to my condition. People with anxiety about their tinnitus often develop some sound sensitivity. So, that may have caused your experience with sound sensitivity and maybe your dizziness.
Tinnitus originates in the auditory pathways of the brain and all tinnitus can be treated regardless of the cause.
I can tell you that I've had really loud tinnitus ... to the point it's about all I could hear at times. This happened as I was trying to get my ear protection off and get habituated to louder environments. I'd just try to relax and know that it wasn't permanent or the result of any ear damage. And it would come and go as I tried to expand my world.
Right now I have very little tinnitus and only hear it occasionally when I listen for it. So I can say the TRT works. In order to do more I have to put up with some ringing, but I understand what causes it, so I just don't care about it.
Anxiety and concern about your tinnitus is the real problem. When you find the sound so distressing your mind has difficulty focusing on anything else. This further strengthens the negative association to sound making it even harder to ignore. Good thoughts are really important.
You could try listening to it several times a day in a quiet room. Just for a short periods (say 10 seconds) and evaluate how you feel about it. NOT long enough to cause any distress. This helps desensitize your ears to the sound and helps you habituate to it. That's the goal. And also read Dr. Hazell's website, especially the paper on Sound Enrichment and TRT. Once you read this info, Dr. Hazell will answer questions about tinnitus. (help@tinnitus.org). I found his book really helpful too. It's very well written and easy to read.
I think completely getting rid of tinnitus often requires wearable sound generators (WSG). But I didn't need them to get my tinnitus to go away. I had many long periods with no audible tinnitus before I saw a TRT doctor and got ear devices. So, I don't think there are any rules. But, the ear devices are very helpful though.
I wouldn't try to drowned out the sound. Just try to think good thoughts and maybe try some kind of sound enrichment like nature sounds from a nature sound radio. Again just don't turn it up to try to drowned out the tinnitus. Just loud enough to break the silence. Music should only be used for enjoyment.
Anyway, I hope this helps.
John
Thanks for posting. I can certain identify with how you feel. There are many causes of tinnitus as well as hyperacusis. I don't know if Meniere's can causes tinnitus, or can make it worse. My cousin has Meniere's and he has vertigo on occasion. He had to quit his job. Fortunately he had disability insurance. Hearing loss can also cause tinnitus. Maybe you had some high frequency hearing loss that made your tinnitus worse?
Also, anxiety over the symptoms of tinnitus and hyperacusis can also cause dizziness. I've had some dizziness in the past do to my condition. People with anxiety about their tinnitus often develop some sound sensitivity. So, that may have caused your experience with sound sensitivity and maybe your dizziness.
Tinnitus originates in the auditory pathways of the brain and all tinnitus can be treated regardless of the cause.
I can tell you that I've had really loud tinnitus ... to the point it's about all I could hear at times. This happened as I was trying to get my ear protection off and get habituated to louder environments. I'd just try to relax and know that it wasn't permanent or the result of any ear damage. And it would come and go as I tried to expand my world.
Right now I have very little tinnitus and only hear it occasionally when I listen for it. So I can say the TRT works. In order to do more I have to put up with some ringing, but I understand what causes it, so I just don't care about it.
Anxiety and concern about your tinnitus is the real problem. When you find the sound so distressing your mind has difficulty focusing on anything else. This further strengthens the negative association to sound making it even harder to ignore. Good thoughts are really important.
You could try listening to it several times a day in a quiet room. Just for a short periods (say 10 seconds) and evaluate how you feel about it. NOT long enough to cause any distress. This helps desensitize your ears to the sound and helps you habituate to it. That's the goal. And also read Dr. Hazell's website, especially the paper on Sound Enrichment and TRT. Once you read this info, Dr. Hazell will answer questions about tinnitus. (help@tinnitus.org). I found his book really helpful too. It's very well written and easy to read.
I think completely getting rid of tinnitus often requires wearable sound generators (WSG). But I didn't need them to get my tinnitus to go away. I had many long periods with no audible tinnitus before I saw a TRT doctor and got ear devices. So, I don't think there are any rules. But, the ear devices are very helpful though.
I wouldn't try to drowned out the sound. Just try to think good thoughts and maybe try some kind of sound enrichment like nature sounds from a nature sound radio. Again just don't turn it up to try to drowned out the tinnitus. Just loud enough to break the silence. Music should only be used for enjoyment.
Anyway, I hope this helps.
John
... about Tinnitus, hyperacusic, etc
It's a really difficult problem ands the surprising thing is that a doctor in France called "Tomatis" found a method to reduce, and virtually illimenate the problems, and there are many centres around the world. The centres don't just focus specifically on the problems of Tinnitus, Minieres, CPS, etc, as the technique has been known to sort these sorts of problems out for quite some time in Europe, particularly France.
The system via the centres involves spending many hours listening to modified taped music (yes, analogue) and the often 100+ hours costs a lot.
This left another application of the technique developed by a group called "Sound Therapy International" where, instead of spending hours at the clinic each day, the modified music was transferred to cassette and you listen to this via a walkman player - the cassette sets cost about Oz$400 (4 tapes) and you just turn the sound down until it's just audible and cary on your usual daily occupations - so simple. Works remarkably well.
Website is "Sound Therapy International" - Patricia Joudry
I developed Tinnitus in each ear, Miniere's vertigo (occassionally, thanks goodness - ghastly) and that CPS (Cocktail Party Syndrome) where you can't understand anything people say to you if any 2nd source of noise around -
problems all under control now - never goes away, but the application of the tape sessions keeps it reduced to virtually nothing. I definitely recommend this one.
It's a really difficult problem ands the surprising thing is that a doctor in France called "Tomatis" found a method to reduce, and virtually illimenate the problems, and there are many centres around the world. The centres don't just focus specifically on the problems of Tinnitus, Minieres, CPS, etc, as the technique has been known to sort these sorts of problems out for quite some time in Europe, particularly France.
The system via the centres involves spending many hours listening to modified taped music (yes, analogue) and the often 100+ hours costs a lot.
This left another application of the technique developed by a group called "Sound Therapy International" where, instead of spending hours at the clinic each day, the modified music was transferred to cassette and you listen to this via a walkman player - the cassette sets cost about Oz$400 (4 tapes) and you just turn the sound down until it's just audible and cary on your usual daily occupations - so simple. Works remarkably well.
Website is "Sound Therapy International" - Patricia Joudry
I developed Tinnitus in each ear, Miniere's vertigo (occassionally, thanks goodness - ghastly) and that CPS (Cocktail Party Syndrome) where you can't understand anything people say to you if any 2nd source of noise around -
problems all under control now - never goes away, but the application of the tape sessions keeps it reduced to virtually nothing. I definitely recommend this one.
Hello Nicoh, a fellow sufferer?
Recorder deck - can I make my own modified tapes? Unfortunately not.
You have to be a registered Tomatis centre to have access to the master tapes although you could buy one of the sound conditioner (tone filter) boxes from the Tomatis orhanisation for home use, but think that the new corporate owners of "the Tomatis Method" (he died a few years ago) are making it incredibly expensive to purchase a liscence for them.
I understand that the people in Sydney (Sound Therapy Internat) are going over to the CD version now, as difficult to find the portable cassette players and apparently, also hard to find blank cassettes.
Here at home while typing on the computer, watching TV. etc, etc, I just plug in the headphones to my old trusty Yamaha cassette deck and let my ears get the necessary R & R. One of the guys here collects old 2nh hand Walkman units for folks that don't have them but want to use the system "on the move".
Recorder deck - can I make my own modified tapes? Unfortunately not.
You have to be a registered Tomatis centre to have access to the master tapes although you could buy one of the sound conditioner (tone filter) boxes from the Tomatis orhanisation for home use, but think that the new corporate owners of "the Tomatis Method" (he died a few years ago) are making it incredibly expensive to purchase a liscence for them.
I understand that the people in Sydney (Sound Therapy Internat) are going over to the CD version now, as difficult to find the portable cassette players and apparently, also hard to find blank cassettes.
Here at home while typing on the computer, watching TV. etc, etc, I just plug in the headphones to my old trusty Yamaha cassette deck and let my ears get the necessary R & R. One of the guys here collects old 2nh hand Walkman units for folks that don't have them but want to use the system "on the move".
jameshillj said:
Sound enrichment is very helpful. Nature sounds like from a nature sound radio make good sound enrichment. Music genrally isn't recommended for sound enrichment, only for enjoyment. I prefer nature sounds for sound enrichment myself. And sound enrichment shouldn't mask the tinnitus, like you mention. It should only reduce it's intensity. You have to hear the tinnitus in order to habituate to it.
I certainly won't argue with any treatment that works for you, and one your happy with. I think that's great! Music does seem to work for many people, even for those that TRT may not, probably because it's enjoyable, and helps take there mind off the tinnitus. Also, you start to associate the tinnitus as a pleasant sound, and it looses its negative meaning.
Ear devices like those described on Dr. Hazell's website are very helpful also. They help linearize the ear and give you a sound to listen to.
Here's some more information on sound enrichment.
http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/index.php?q=node/153
I don't really have a problem with tinnitus. Not that I don't hear it when I listen for it. But, it just not problem for me. I used to have very loud tinnitus at one time. I think it's important to understand the mechanism behind tinnitus, which is explained on doctor Hazell's website.
Main thing about sound enrichment is it should be a pleasant sound. Many people with tinnitus also have increased sound sensitivity, and any sound you use for sound enrichment should be pleasant. Avoiding long periods of silence like at night is very helpful too. A nature sound radio that plays quietly in the background while you sleep can be very helpful.
For a couple months now I've been chatting on a forum dedicated to Hyperacusis, Phonophobia, and Tinnitus as well as Misophonia (dislike for certain sounds). It's at the Hyperacusis Network site:
http://www.chat-hyperacusis.net/
Lots of nice people there to discuss various treatments and answer questions. The Hyperacusis Network also has lots of information about getting help. But, there is also some bad information out there to. TRT is the treatment sponsored by the forum, and TRT is the most effective treatment as far as I'm concerned. One issue I have with the Hyperacusis Network is there statement on their home page that there is "no cure" for hyperacusis and tinitus. That's not true.
My dad had hyper and overcame it, even without ear devices. A friend of my cousin had hyper and she used ear devices overcame it within 7 months. Phonophobia and Misophonia are usually harder to deal with and the speed of progress really depends on the individual and how well they are at dealing with the psychological and emotional aspects of their condition.
Just wanted to inform people here about this help forum. There are likely other hyperacusis forums out there but this one is a good one.
http://www.chat-hyperacusis.net/
Lots of nice people there to discuss various treatments and answer questions. The Hyperacusis Network also has lots of information about getting help. But, there is also some bad information out there to. TRT is the treatment sponsored by the forum, and TRT is the most effective treatment as far as I'm concerned. One issue I have with the Hyperacusis Network is there statement on their home page that there is "no cure" for hyperacusis and tinitus. That's not true.
My dad had hyper and overcame it, even without ear devices. A friend of my cousin had hyper and she used ear devices overcame it within 7 months. Phonophobia and Misophonia are usually harder to deal with and the speed of progress really depends on the individual and how well they are at dealing with the psychological and emotional aspects of their condition.
Just wanted to inform people here about this help forum. There are likely other hyperacusis forums out there but this one is a good one.
Hi MFC,
Thanks for posting that! Some people do have success with Neuromonics from what I understand, but have heard reports both ways. I've also heard people complain about the limited music choices and the quality of the playback with the Neuromonics device.
One thing I'm learning is that everyone has slightly different problems and different needs. It's probably a good treatment for pure tinnitus and not so much to treat hyperacusis, though some use it to treat hyperacusis.
Some people also have trouble with the ear devices used in TRT. I'm refering to those with hyperacusis though. Sometimes people need to work on sound enrichment first and build up their sound tolerances before starting with the wearable noise generators.
I find the General Hearing Instrument wearable noise generators I use very pleasant, but people with hyperacusis have different tolerance levels at different frequencies, and some can't handle the wide band sound at first.
For people who have/had phonophobia or misophonia, TRT is the way to go. Getting a good TRT doctor is very important to success, as is learning as much about the Jastreboff Model as you can.
Thanks for posting that! Some people do have success with Neuromonics from what I understand, but have heard reports both ways. I've also heard people complain about the limited music choices and the quality of the playback with the Neuromonics device.
One thing I'm learning is that everyone has slightly different problems and different needs. It's probably a good treatment for pure tinnitus and not so much to treat hyperacusis, though some use it to treat hyperacusis.
Some people also have trouble with the ear devices used in TRT. I'm refering to those with hyperacusis though. Sometimes people need to work on sound enrichment first and build up their sound tolerances before starting with the wearable noise generators.
I find the General Hearing Instrument wearable noise generators I use very pleasant, but people with hyperacusis have different tolerance levels at different frequencies, and some can't handle the wide band sound at first.
For people who have/had phonophobia or misophonia, TRT is the way to go. Getting a good TRT doctor is very important to success, as is learning as much about the Jastreboff Model as you can.
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