SSassen said:
I saw you defending yourself on various hardware forums and having your reputation attatcked. Its good to see you vindicated although I dont think you will get any apologies from most of them.
I heard the buy price for the Nuforce modules were $160 (each) and gets cheaper for larger quantities. This goes to show there is some markup there.
But we have to give them a break, they are retail with a dealer structure and compared to Bel Canto, Rowland, PS Audio and the other high end digital amp makers they are very cheap.
A lot of people here have this misinformed opinion that nuforce had poor build quality. This was not the case. Build quality was never the problem with nuforce, design quality was, and it was released too early with teething problems and underwent some circuit revisions.
btw where did you get those black can torroids from in your ucd build Sander?
Agisthos,
They're available from Farnell (http://www.farnell.com) and RS Components (http://www.rs-components.com). The ones pictured are 38 euros each, ex. tax. so they're a bargain really.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
They're available from Farnell (http://www.farnell.com) and RS Components (http://www.rs-components.com). The ones pictured are 38 euros each, ex. tax. so they're a bargain really.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Are those off-the-shelf SMPS?
I'm still looking into SMPS (for UcD) for my living room based sound system.
I'd love to have 2 nice little B&W speakers fed by a small small amp running off a squeezebox...
I'm still looking into SMPS (for UcD) for my living room based sound system.
I'd love to have 2 nice little B&W speakers fed by a small small amp running off a squeezebox...
Yves Smolders said:
If anyone knows of a source where a guy could buy some +/- 20v to 100v SMPS, I would be very interested know your source, as I haven't been able to find anything like this anywhere unless I am willing to have it custom made.
Terry🙂
Lars Clausen said:
This may include non-audio purposal power amplifiers, such as motor servo amplifiers.
It's probably true in audio also, looking at all the small MP3 players, GSM phones... all low power solutions.
In Hifi (and beyond) world it's different I guess - cheaper "all-in-one" dvd sets use chipamps or class-d as well, but it's still strange to see that most receivers still use analog amps (while they could benefit from class-d power very much!)
Retrofitting midfi receivers with class-d stages could be a nice "mod" to sell 😀
In Hifi (and beyond) world it's different I guess - cheaper "all-in-one" dvd sets use chipamps or class-d as well, but it's still strange to see that most receivers still use analog amps (while they could benefit from class-d power very much!)
Retrofitting midfi receivers with class-d stages could be a nice "mod" to sell 😀
I was at Costco (an large american wholesale warehouse store) yesterday looking around, and saw many all-in-one home theater systems (Sony, Pansonic, Technics to name a few) with what they called "Didgital amplification". I assumed this must mean class D amplifiers. It made sense because these units were small compared to the output power ratings.
So if all cells phones, mp3 players, much of mainstream home theater, car subwoofer amplification, are all using class D, then we are getting close to 50% of the audio electronics market with those areas. The thing is that if more home hi-fi audio used class D then the public would become more aware of how it is superior to class A/B. Personally from what I have heard it can really give class A a run for its money (figure of speach, hands down they can't compare on a price level) as I have never heard an amplifier sound as good as a class D amplifier can.
Terry 🙂
P.S. KLe thanks for the link, are there any other OEM SMPSU manufactures that anyone knows of.
So if all cells phones, mp3 players, much of mainstream home theater, car subwoofer amplification, are all using class D, then we are getting close to 50% of the audio electronics market with those areas. The thing is that if more home hi-fi audio used class D then the public would become more aware of how it is superior to class A/B. Personally from what I have heard it can really give class A a run for its money (figure of speach, hands down they can't compare on a price level) as I have never heard an amplifier sound as good as a class D amplifier can.
Terry 🙂
P.S. KLe thanks for the link, are there any other OEM SMPSU manufactures that anyone knows of.
Why not integrate the supply and amp technology ?
If a klass D can track audio and switchmode supply's can bee fairly fast switching at abt the same freq as well.
Great part of the amplifier parts is galvanically separated from the output. Lets make more power smaler !
4 kvadrant power supplyes basically can sink and sorce signals, just whats needed for an audio amp.
Power seems limmited to magnetic cores ability to transfer the energy you really want from a "audio tracking galvanic sepparated switched power device".
There is some tape cores with high magnetic capability, the rest is just a lot of switching, iven positive and negative direction has to bee switched.
When we need to switch at one stage, and still provide mains insulation why bother switching bout amp and supply?In the enviromental frendly first effort i think we just owerloocked the overall efficiency as a goal.
If a klass D can track audio and switchmode supply's can bee fairly fast switching at abt the same freq as well.
Great part of the amplifier parts is galvanically separated from the output. Lets make more power smaler !
4 kvadrant power supplyes basically can sink and sorce signals, just whats needed for an audio amp.
Power seems limmited to magnetic cores ability to transfer the energy you really want from a "audio tracking galvanic sepparated switched power device".
There is some tape cores with high magnetic capability, the rest is just a lot of switching, iven positive and negative direction has to bee switched.
When we need to switch at one stage, and still provide mains insulation why bother switching bout amp and supply?In the enviromental frendly first effort i think we just owerloocked the overall efficiency as a goal.
I do not know how,but i have strong suspections that is possible to modify
Those PC power supplies to be a Class D amplifier.
As the way it works is the same,.... error amplifier send signal to width pulse oscilator and modulator...to increase the width...so...modulating with audio, that part of the circuit...the modulation will follow the audio...and them...filtering the output, i think we will produce an amplifier.
I have those suspections, and i think, someday, someone will discover how to do that.
I do not know the internal diagram, or even the block diagram of those pulse width power supplies, but i think the observation and the try and error will produce results.
The quality of this audio...well..i have no idea.
regards,
Carlos
Those PC power supplies to be a Class D amplifier.
As the way it works is the same,.... error amplifier send signal to width pulse oscilator and modulator...to increase the width...so...modulating with audio, that part of the circuit...the modulation will follow the audio...and them...filtering the output, i think we will produce an amplifier.
I have those suspections, and i think, someday, someone will discover how to do that.
I do not know the internal diagram, or even the block diagram of those pulse width power supplies, but i think the observation and the try and error will produce results.
The quality of this audio...well..i have no idea.
regards,
Carlos
Im most facinated by the Matrix idea, as it seems like a nice way to cope with high freq switch, reasonable compact-layout. Abt the ampliverter, it exsist. I have no reason to belive it not already done. (Matrix~many smaler cores in array).
Maybee there is someone 'out here' that would like to share som eksperience ?
Maybee there is someone 'out here' that would like to share som eksperience ?
I just browsed the 6moons review of the NuForce Reference 9. It says on page 2 that "SMPSs are by design regulated." That is simply untrue. This again reiterates that if the reviewers don't know what they're talking about how valuable is the article?? This oversight doesn't mean the whole article is bogus but if the reviewer is going to write anything is ought to be factual or left out.
Many reviewers are parroting what they have been told by the manufacture, it is not always their fault. But you would think that they would confirm how valid are claims by manufactures as to what the products can and can not do. Interesting years ago reviews relied mostly on test bench results, now they rely on strickly their own hearing. There has got to be a middle ground somewhere.
Terry🙂
Terry🙂
Is "digital fart" the technical term?
You can pick apart that review alot more:
"NuForce also claims that all amplifiers use output filters and induce phase shift. Again, not true. Class D amplifiers must use filters but traditional linear amplifiers do not. Well-designed linear amplifiers don't suffer phase shifts but ICEpower for example does inject -70 degrees @ 20kHz/4-ohm for one of their boards as imposed by the output filter. The NuForce claims thus do apply to their direct competition -- so-called digital Class D amplifiers -- but not to traditional 'linear' amplifiers."
So they pick the one class d amp that has some phase shift because it uses pre and post filter feedback, and dump on it to pump the one that they're reviewing. Allllll the other class d amps that don't have that problem don't seem to exist, right along with filterless class d (which isn't really high end or high power, but it does exist).
It would appear as though they're genuinely trying to be objectionable (see their remarks on damping factor), which makes a person want to trust it.
Got to love this:
" The moniker digital amps is a complete misnomer. This would occur to anyone asking how come they have analog inputs and if so, how come they don't use A/D and D/A converters internally. With all the bashing 'perfect sound forever' has bequeathed on the terms 'digital', associating the latter with amps conjures up nasties like brittle, bright, flat and sterile. It would be best to disassociate the two -- amps and digital -- which, I believe, is why NuForce insists on calling theirs an "analog switching amp". That is the correct term, albeit not just for NuForce but for Tripath and ICEpower and Hypex and others of the same ilk. (TacT and Sharp's OneBit might properly be called digital but we'll let the engineers worry about that.) " 😀
Hypex just got busted by their own schoolings 🙂 Very amusing! Now that the world knows they aren't digital perhaps it's time to update marketing and drop that term?
Anyway, I got bored with that review at that point and moved on.
Here's another ill informed commenter:
http://www.eet.com/op/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=162600298
To which you get this add:
http://www.planetanalog.com/columns/scarleta/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=167100321
(hit control F and type in nphysics to get right to it)
Here you see Nuforce taking that up as a chance to hype their product, otherwise saying absolutely nothing to dispell any of the misconceptions on a technical level. Simply "that's not true look at us that's not true listen to us that's not true try us"....... YAAAAWN Nuforce.... yaaaawwwwwn. Why would that even get published, friends in high places?
A funny note:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0207&L=inventors&F=&S=&P=17089
"...As to my inventions, it's easier for me to make and sell the products than
to seek for licensees. A couple will be available soon, namely laptop solar
chargers, and a health-related device. However I granted license of my IP
portfolio on class-N amplifiers to NPhysics, a semiconductor company which
thinks it can sell $125M of ICs for single-cycle PWM controllers and
amplifiers modules in three years. Of course they may be wrong! And I'll
have a booth at CES next winter to show off the discrete version.
Tranh"
That's from 2002, the IC I've not heard of. R&D for such a thing would cost a fortune. One way to fund that R&D would be to put out some form of lesser product with instant web-pushed-appeal that can be cheaply built for instant fortune.
Luckily for us, people are far too honest to do such a thing, and everyone in the audio business really just wants to make the world a safer place for music.
Regards,
Chris
Evan Shultz said:
You can pick apart that review alot more:
"NuForce also claims that all amplifiers use output filters and induce phase shift. Again, not true. Class D amplifiers must use filters but traditional linear amplifiers do not. Well-designed linear amplifiers don't suffer phase shifts but ICEpower for example does inject -70 degrees @ 20kHz/4-ohm for one of their boards as imposed by the output filter. The NuForce claims thus do apply to their direct competition -- so-called digital Class D amplifiers -- but not to traditional 'linear' amplifiers."
So they pick the one class d amp that has some phase shift because it uses pre and post filter feedback, and dump on it to pump the one that they're reviewing. Allllll the other class d amps that don't have that problem don't seem to exist, right along with filterless class d (which isn't really high end or high power, but it does exist).
It would appear as though they're genuinely trying to be objectionable (see their remarks on damping factor), which makes a person want to trust it.
Got to love this:
" The moniker digital amps is a complete misnomer. This would occur to anyone asking how come they have analog inputs and if so, how come they don't use A/D and D/A converters internally. With all the bashing 'perfect sound forever' has bequeathed on the terms 'digital', associating the latter with amps conjures up nasties like brittle, bright, flat and sterile. It would be best to disassociate the two -- amps and digital -- which, I believe, is why NuForce insists on calling theirs an "analog switching amp". That is the correct term, albeit not just for NuForce but for Tripath and ICEpower and Hypex and others of the same ilk. (TacT and Sharp's OneBit might properly be called digital but we'll let the engineers worry about that.) " 😀
Hypex just got busted by their own schoolings 🙂 Very amusing! Now that the world knows they aren't digital perhaps it's time to update marketing and drop that term?
Anyway, I got bored with that review at that point and moved on.
Here's another ill informed commenter:
http://www.eet.com/op/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=162600298
To which you get this add:
http://www.planetanalog.com/columns/scarleta/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=167100321
(hit control F and type in nphysics to get right to it)
Here you see Nuforce taking that up as a chance to hype their product, otherwise saying absolutely nothing to dispell any of the misconceptions on a technical level. Simply "that's not true look at us that's not true listen to us that's not true try us"....... YAAAAWN Nuforce.... yaaaawwwwwn. Why would that even get published, friends in high places?
A funny note:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0207&L=inventors&F=&S=&P=17089
"...As to my inventions, it's easier for me to make and sell the products than
to seek for licensees. A couple will be available soon, namely laptop solar
chargers, and a health-related device. However I granted license of my IP
portfolio on class-N amplifiers to NPhysics, a semiconductor company which
thinks it can sell $125M of ICs for single-cycle PWM controllers and
amplifiers modules in three years. Of course they may be wrong! And I'll
have a booth at CES next winter to show off the discrete version.
Tranh"
That's from 2002, the IC I've not heard of. R&D for such a thing would cost a fortune. One way to fund that R&D would be to put out some form of lesser product with instant web-pushed-appeal that can be cheaply built for instant fortune.
Luckily for us, people are far too honest to do such a thing, and everyone in the audio business really just wants to make the world a safer place for music.
Regards,
Chris
Amazing how someone could take the effort to search for every old reference to nuforce and spin it into a negative light expecially when they are so 'bored' and 'YAAAWN" e.t.c
Its not even subtle trolling.
I find that people like to have their gurus, and at the moment its UcD for a lot of people here and they get uppity when another competing technology comes along.
Bring on the listening tests I say.
Tripath, UcD, CIA D200, Nuforce Ref 9, LC Audio, that would be something to hear
Its not even subtle trolling.
I find that people like to have their gurus, and at the moment its UcD for a lot of people here and they get uppity when another competing technology comes along.
Bring on the listening tests I say.
Tripath, UcD, CIA D200, Nuforce Ref 9, LC Audio, that would be something to hear
I love irony
It's hard for me to answer you seriously, even harder to ignore, because I realize full well exactly what you're up to.
I bet you'd like nothing more than for me or someone else to explain to you all the benefits of UCD over Nuforce, go do some research, you're at the right place already.
I think it's healthy to see a different motivation than the usual review/marketing garble, which people tend to be brainwashed by. This could perhaps allow someone the chance at an informed opinion, but then again, people don't like the truth. Perhaps a subtle point in that which you missed is that a review isn't a good place to get your gospel. As people who tinker, we like to get beyond that garble, in less than two seconds, I guess that's the same reason why you troll.
An example of brainwash:
"Bring on the listening tests I say.
Tripath, UcD, CIA D200, Nuforce Ref 9, LC Audio, that would be something to hear"
Do you want to compare technologies, listen to amplifiers, or what? The only two actual amplifiers you named are the subject of some rather controversial reviews, which I bet you read. As per the rest... your knowledge is so slack that you can't even differentiate between a particular amplifier, module, or company. Do you even realize you nominated UCD twice? I bet you don't.
Now you've learnt something so that was a good troll, had to give you some form of crumb, just to show there's no hard feelings 🙂
An amplifier can not be a guru, but it can be the best according to an individuals criteria. However the basics are assumed, like no smoke or fire. You can of course dig into an amplifier to unlock its secrets in order to learn from it, good or bad. Such answers aren't often found in reviews, the soundness of the technology speaks for itself, one way or another.
You've clearly taken my use of the terms bored and yawwn well out of context and twisted them in an attempt to project your negativity upon me, another sign of a troll.
All the same, you're dangerous. Everytime someone disagrees with something you're there playing the devil's advocate. I don't mind that and I think it healthy provided the discussion continues on topic and of a technical nature. As per Nuforce, you've plugged them since they became known on other public forums, and read your first review, but aren't willing to get your own pet Ref 9 until everyone else has paid to work out the bugs for you, through their own blown speakers, house fires, whatever. That's a good measure of a troll itself "do my work for me", and that's the danger.
Posts such as the above which contribute little to nothing to a conversation would be another example. A past history of the same??
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=314471#post314471
Trolling can be used advantageously, but I find your particular application of it only serves you. Next time you single me out, please have some good material.
Not so subtle, yet Sincerely,
Chris
Agisthos said:
It's hard for me to answer you seriously, even harder to ignore, because I realize full well exactly what you're up to.
I bet you'd like nothing more than for me or someone else to explain to you all the benefits of UCD over Nuforce, go do some research, you're at the right place already.
I think it's healthy to see a different motivation than the usual review/marketing garble, which people tend to be brainwashed by. This could perhaps allow someone the chance at an informed opinion, but then again, people don't like the truth. Perhaps a subtle point in that which you missed is that a review isn't a good place to get your gospel. As people who tinker, we like to get beyond that garble, in less than two seconds, I guess that's the same reason why you troll.
An example of brainwash:
"Bring on the listening tests I say.
Tripath, UcD, CIA D200, Nuforce Ref 9, LC Audio, that would be something to hear"
Do you want to compare technologies, listen to amplifiers, or what? The only two actual amplifiers you named are the subject of some rather controversial reviews, which I bet you read. As per the rest... your knowledge is so slack that you can't even differentiate between a particular amplifier, module, or company. Do you even realize you nominated UCD twice? I bet you don't.
Now you've learnt something so that was a good troll, had to give you some form of crumb, just to show there's no hard feelings 🙂
An amplifier can not be a guru, but it can be the best according to an individuals criteria. However the basics are assumed, like no smoke or fire. You can of course dig into an amplifier to unlock its secrets in order to learn from it, good or bad. Such answers aren't often found in reviews, the soundness of the technology speaks for itself, one way or another.
You've clearly taken my use of the terms bored and yawwn well out of context and twisted them in an attempt to project your negativity upon me, another sign of a troll.
All the same, you're dangerous. Everytime someone disagrees with something you're there playing the devil's advocate. I don't mind that and I think it healthy provided the discussion continues on topic and of a technical nature. As per Nuforce, you've plugged them since they became known on other public forums, and read your first review, but aren't willing to get your own pet Ref 9 until everyone else has paid to work out the bugs for you, through their own blown speakers, house fires, whatever. That's a good measure of a troll itself "do my work for me", and that's the danger.
Posts such as the above which contribute little to nothing to a conversation would be another example. A past history of the same??
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=314471#post314471
Trolling can be used advantageously, but I find your particular application of it only serves you. Next time you single me out, please have some good material.
Not so subtle, yet Sincerely,
Chris
Re: I love irony
Chris, you are trying desperately to get out of it, but a simple glance at your comments shows someone who has never heard a nuforce amp and yet takes no small opportunity to attack the company and cast them in a bad light. It is like you are out to 'get' them, for whatever reasons I have no idea.
And when exposed for your bias you are saying Im the troll? Experience with forum posters show me Im never going to change your mind but the truth is there for all to see.
Ill tell you my perpective, and that is I want the best sound possible for the lowest price, regardless of which company or technology makes the product. I have no bias except to my wallet, and that is the philosphy Im sure a lot of DIY people have.
CIA claims that they use a modified implementation of the UcD module. Is this true? Is it marketing speak? We wont know until an AB comparison is done with a stock module vs theirs.
And as for that post you have linked to out of context, let me give the context here.
Lars Clausen made a comment that he found that putting many capacitors in parallel can have a slow effect on the bass compared to having a matrix style capacitor bank.
What did Lars get for this? He was attacked and ridiculed by people who claimed that it could not possibly have any effect. Those people were not willing to try it for themself and see the effect, they were just content to sit on the sideline and proclaim it was rubbish without any knowledge at all.
Lars could well be talking *****, but until I hear or build his power supply bank technique I will not know and not pass judgement.
And when I defended him against people who have never heard or tried his approach what was I called? A troll. Sound familiar? 😀
I do enjoy your comments on this forum Chris, as your technical expertise far outweights mine, I just wish people would stop the bias and judgements for things they have never tried. It seems to be a huge issue in the audio world.
classd4sure said:
Chris, you are trying desperately to get out of it, but a simple glance at your comments shows someone who has never heard a nuforce amp and yet takes no small opportunity to attack the company and cast them in a bad light. It is like you are out to 'get' them, for whatever reasons I have no idea.
And when exposed for your bias you are saying Im the troll? Experience with forum posters show me Im never going to change your mind but the truth is there for all to see.
Ill tell you my perpective, and that is I want the best sound possible for the lowest price, regardless of which company or technology makes the product. I have no bias except to my wallet, and that is the philosphy Im sure a lot of DIY people have.
CIA claims that they use a modified implementation of the UcD module. Is this true? Is it marketing speak? We wont know until an AB comparison is done with a stock module vs theirs.
And as for that post you have linked to out of context, let me give the context here.
Lars Clausen made a comment that he found that putting many capacitors in parallel can have a slow effect on the bass compared to having a matrix style capacitor bank.
What did Lars get for this? He was attacked and ridiculed by people who claimed that it could not possibly have any effect. Those people were not willing to try it for themself and see the effect, they were just content to sit on the sideline and proclaim it was rubbish without any knowledge at all.
Lars could well be talking *****, but until I hear or build his power supply bank technique I will not know and not pass judgement.
And when I defended him against people who have never heard or tried his approach what was I called? A troll. Sound familiar? 😀
I do enjoy your comments on this forum Chris, as your technical expertise far outweights mine, I just wish people would stop the bias and judgements for things they have never tried. It seems to be a huge issue in the audio world.
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