No arguments here on your observations.
The reason why I spent the time downloading and analyzing that entire user-populated database was due to my cursory observations of the database record by record. I believe the only way to get awareness of how compressed virtually all music actually is--is to show the plotted data.
I've been acquiring higher DR recordings found in that database - and the results are pretty spectacular. This data actually explains why so many believe that vinyl sounds better than CDs - and you can just about collapse the entire discussion down to a scalar variable - dynamic range. See the linked article on "vinyl vs. digital" section for more discussion on this issue.
As for the discussion on kilowatt amplifiers to reproduce dynamic recordings--I don't believe that you have to worry about that, at least until uncompressed recordings actually make it to the marketplace. See https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143320-loudness-war-and-the-dynamic-range-dr-database-some-observations/?p=1641702
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This is the area I am interested in, how to make things sound real enough to fool people and that requires a good recording and high power and high sensitivity. While this is inconsistent with what the recording industry thinks people want for the home, there are other commercial uses for a system which can fool listeners into believing it’s real.
Here are some recordings which have no compression and large dynamic range that were made with a capture invention, a project at work.
Try these with headphones if interested. These have a very low noise floor and large dynamic range, to avoid clipping while recording, the average level is quite low so you will need to urn the volume up.
I think you will find these sound more ‘real’ than most commercial recordings. Careful with the fireworks recording, it has a very large p/a ratio, about 40dB if I recall.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3c0si0r7giud2w/Johns bbqTrack 04.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8208qvei00qxzxz/parade section3.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jq5n4gj4mpptjpn/TrainStart.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eik72wzv5hptq3r/fireworks 2013 last 6 min cd.wav?dl=0
Best,
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs
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Thanks Tom - I'll listen to them.
If you look at my profile picture, I believe that you'll see why I care about dynamic range.
If you look at my profile picture, I believe that you'll see why I care about dynamic range.
Ah, I understand haha, a fellow horn guy.
Well, it takes a speaker capable of reproducing large peaks in order to enjoy them when they are there in the recordings.
You can see “large scale hifi” I am dealing with at work at the link below, try the Kinnick stadium and Caleb videos with headphones here;
https://www.facebook.com/DanleySoundLabs?ref=ts
a lot of my toys have typical coaxial speakers - picked up a cheap 1KW per channel amp (Crown x4000 which appears to be the same as their x3500 -might get another as are $299 shipped and weigh 43lb - mostly the toroid) The only amp I had free before this was a Samson Servo 260.
I've burnt a 3" coil woofer accidentally with `100 watts sine wave at LF in a sealed box within a minute or so.
since with a coax 2-way there's just one woofer voice coil and a typical 1" format compression driver with xover in the range of 1K6 to 2K5, can one expect better result with the best recordings vs a 100 watt amp?
are there any really clean recordings of drum solos? some of the best I had on CD were "Solo Drums" by Steve Clarke. "Tintal by Dan Weiss where Dan transfers traditional tabla to a full western drumkit with the drone instrument being a Fender Strat. There have been some pretty good Zarb recordings.
I've over a hundred drum based cds - could listen all day/night if recordings were better - Louie Bellson remains one favorite.
Eminence 99dB 12cx - 2.5" diameter coil / ~ 1/2" long - maybe 2mm overhang, 70%BL ~4mm
Eminence ~96dB 12cx, 4" diameter coil/ 4.8mm overhang
toy with no "bass" - have no idea how good/bad yet it will be
normal orientation of toy
I've burnt a 3" coil woofer accidentally with `100 watts sine wave at LF in a sealed box within a minute or so.
since with a coax 2-way there's just one woofer voice coil and a typical 1" format compression driver with xover in the range of 1K6 to 2K5, can one expect better result with the best recordings vs a 100 watt amp?
are there any really clean recordings of drum solos? some of the best I had on CD were "Solo Drums" by Steve Clarke. "Tintal by Dan Weiss where Dan transfers traditional tabla to a full western drumkit with the drone instrument being a Fender Strat. There have been some pretty good Zarb recordings.
I've over a hundred drum based cds - could listen all day/night if recordings were better - Louie Bellson remains one favorite.
Eminence 99dB 12cx - 2.5" diameter coil / ~ 1/2" long - maybe 2mm overhang, 70%BL ~4mm
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Eminence ~96dB 12cx, 4" diameter coil/ 4.8mm overhang
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
toy with no "bass" - have no idea how good/bad yet it will be
normal orientation of toy
those 3cd I suggested above are imo good test and good music examples - will sort the weaklings out fast. Steve Clarke, although not a jazz drummer has two twenty minute solos and the disc is more usable than the old Sheffield CD. The zarb CD is very lively with quick transients, Weiss' "Tintal" having flurries of notes - first sung then played is rough on little speakers and will not remain clear.
what cds would you guys recommend to test transients?
what cds would you guys recommend to test transients?
Paul Lansky: Threads
Jennifer Higdon: Chamber Symphony... a really outstanding percussion concerto, has to be heard to be believed
actually, lotsa percussion "classical" percussion music has all the transients you'd like.. Nexus, Steve Reich... anything where they are hitting metal objects using metal sticks (which includes Band 6 of the Holst Band Suites with an orchestral anvil.. and the Hanson recording has low average loudness meaning high DR and one of the loudest and lowest side-drums I know of in Band 3)
Ben
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Start at the top and work down, page by page, finding the type of music that you prefer to hear:
Album list - Dynamic Range Database
Make sure that you are acquiring the exact disc or record of issue by manufacturer's name, number, and year of issue, by clicking on the title and reading the detailed info for each disc, being careful to avoid any database record that is "lossy" in the next-to-last column.
Chris
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You can click on columns and sort by dynamic range min max or average.
The two that I have that are near the top are michael hedges "Aerial boundaries" and Flim and the BB's "Tricycle". Both are very nice recordings.
Hi Freddyi
Get a copy of the Ozone percussion group with this track on it;
It is percussion only but very good, i have it on a Manger test disk (a number of very clear and diverse recordings on that disk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oej7DImni6E
some of the first CDs were the best for dynamic range - for example, the great trumpet player Jack Sheldon "Playin' It Straight" CD (Label: REALTIME 3003 1983) - its a treasure and worth seeking. It could use a lot of amp power with a horn system. There were decent classical releases on BIS including trumpet and trombone. Karlson speaker company's Wayne Green started Digital Audio Review magazine in those days.
my pile of cds from the last 30yr are a mess and not ordered in tubs - what's a good application to record their dynamic range for uploads to the database?
my pile of cds from the last 30yr are a mess and not ordered in tubs - what's a good application to record their dynamic range for uploads to the database?
The clip audibility thing relates very much to the % of clips vs. time... also it relates to what % of the transient is being clipped.
Of course, I agree with Tom Danley that if you could compare unclipped with clipped a little bit, you'd likely hear the diff - assuming ur ears could handle it.
Having said that, I've used a 'scope for a long time to look at the output of amps, my system, other folks system. My take on it says that many if not most home systems actually are clipping the amps on peaks (assuming the program material has peaks).
Imho, there is no harm in using a high power amp, assuming you are willing to take the risk inherent in such power, and know that making a mistake could blow stuff up quickly. But quite frankly, a 100watt amp will blow up speakers just fine under the right circumstances. It's no different than owning a car with a powerful engine. Some people ought not own such a vehicle. 😀
As far as uncompressed? I used to get together with a group of friends to play live electric music, direct into my system, no amps. Does that qualify?
Today anyone can buy a very good hand held digital recorder and catch live uncompressed sounds for themselves, and not spend much money either!
You do not need fireworks for large uncompressed peaks, although fireworks will do it for sure! 😀
One thing that will produce a fairly spectacular dynamic sound is to take a heavy glass object, place it in a sack and smash it on a hard surface... record that!
_-_-
Of course, I agree with Tom Danley that if you could compare unclipped with clipped a little bit, you'd likely hear the diff - assuming ur ears could handle it.
Having said that, I've used a 'scope for a long time to look at the output of amps, my system, other folks system. My take on it says that many if not most home systems actually are clipping the amps on peaks (assuming the program material has peaks).
Imho, there is no harm in using a high power amp, assuming you are willing to take the risk inherent in such power, and know that making a mistake could blow stuff up quickly. But quite frankly, a 100watt amp will blow up speakers just fine under the right circumstances. It's no different than owning a car with a powerful engine. Some people ought not own such a vehicle. 😀
As far as uncompressed? I used to get together with a group of friends to play live electric music, direct into my system, no amps. Does that qualify?
Today anyone can buy a very good hand held digital recorder and catch live uncompressed sounds for themselves, and not spend much money either!
You do not need fireworks for large uncompressed peaks, although fireworks will do it for sure! 😀
One thing that will produce a fairly spectacular dynamic sound is to take a heavy glass object, place it in a sack and smash it on a hard surface... record that!
_-_-
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Live Dynamic Range
You guys need to get to a DCI (Drum Corps International) competition. Preferably nice outdoor stadium, sitting in the first 10 rows or so. Nothing quite like about 80 brass players facing away, playing pianissimo, then suddenly turning and letting loose. OR visit your local University and offer to record their Percussion Ensemble. Great for capturing transients. Just remember to set your levels on the low side...
You guys need to get to a DCI (Drum Corps International) competition. Preferably nice outdoor stadium, sitting in the first 10 rows or so. Nothing quite like about 80 brass players facing away, playing pianissimo, then suddenly turning and letting loose. OR visit your local University and offer to record their Percussion Ensemble. Great for capturing transients. Just remember to set your levels on the low side...
Dynamic range is one reason that I like my DC Coupled OTL & 100db/w/m Iron Lawbreaker combination. When I really turn it up, the OTL can drive the HF compression drivers to about 60Vrms at the driver terminals above 500 hz before clipping even though the OTL is basically only 60WRms/channel into 8 ohms. Of course, the bass is more limited dynamically, but that contribution to the overall effect is less noticeable than one might expect, probably due to the limited spectrum triode intermodulation products. The sound is pure tube with an impression of a power capability of several hundred watts/channel.
I'm curious as to whether most LPs made today are mastered from 24 bit/96 or 192 Ks/s digital masters. That, as well as the intentionally increased dynamics would definitely lead to a preference over standard CD releases. Fully using the top end of vinyl's dynamic range can create a DR of 80-95db, incidentally since those levels can be 20 dB or more higher than the 'standard' 5 cm/s peak velocity reference level used to quote cartridge SNR's.
I'm curious as to whether most LPs made today are mastered from 24 bit/96 or 192 Ks/s digital masters. That, as well as the intentionally increased dynamics would definitely lead to a preference over standard CD releases. Fully using the top end of vinyl's dynamic range can create a DR of 80-95db, incidentally since those levels can be 20 dB or more higher than the 'standard' 5 cm/s peak velocity reference level used to quote cartridge SNR's.
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I've let an OTL never plugged it that we once discussed sit for at least a decade - hope can find its documentation which had adjustment and pages of clear schematics - the manual could have been ditched, or buried in tubs of cds and mess
an old post says it has 10 6ASG7/channel, +_150 volt rails with 625va toroid for each channel and rated 75 into 4/100 into 8, 12AT7/12SN7 drive
pic is lost so just a blurry thumbnail of the auction - is this worth a go? IIRC it may have gotten poo-pooed in an AA forum (?) seems like a good try in assembly quality - dunno about the output tube brand quality
for regular transformer amp I've got a Mesa Stategy 400 which is ok
I'd like to know about the modern vinyl process too. There are blogs which claim 16/44 is superior to higher bit/sampling
an old post says it has 10 6ASG7/channel, +_150 volt rails with 625va toroid for each channel and rated 75 into 4/100 into 8, 12AT7/12SN7 drive
pic is lost so just a blurry thumbnail of the auction - is this worth a go? IIRC it may have gotten poo-pooed in an AA forum (?) seems like a good try in assembly quality - dunno about the output tube brand quality
for regular transformer amp I've got a Mesa Stategy 400 which is ok
I'd like to know about the modern vinyl process too. There are blogs which claim 16/44 is superior to higher bit/sampling
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does it require the $30/year membership to download the dynamic range meter tool? - if so , does the tool run out at the year point?
I'd say it's worth a try if it doesn't cost too much. I've always gotten satisfactory performance from my design. Supply fuses on each supply rail for each channel made it safe to use with Chartwell LS3/5A's for years. Without the output transformer, you can tweak up damping factor using feedback to equal or better most SS amps, also.
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