Have you boughten the TCM caps yet? Joe talked about how the Miflex and Duelund are significantly better. I mentioned the Elsinore project to Parts Connextions and how Joe liked the Duelund tinned copper caps as one of the options. Miflex is having issues at the moment so production has ceased. However, Duelund seems to be doing alright. So Parts Connexion talked to Duelund about making some 1.8uF 100V caps which have dimensions that should comply with Joe's PCBs. The owner of Duelund (Frederik) said it was a much better idea to go with the 100v VS the higher voltage alternative. It also brings the size and the cost down a bit.
They are radial so this is what I am going to do when I get mine:
If you look at C1, you can see my ugly editations. The green represents two holes being drilled, the red represents the leads being soldered to C1's pads from underneath and the yellow circle represents the cap's footprint sitting on board vertically. If you wanted, you could place the epoxy portion of the cap on a could small dabs of silicone or hotglue. However, with the dampening charactoristics of the capacitor, I don't believe you need to worry too much.
Yes, I’ve had the TCM for over a year in my Elsinores now. Always curious about tweaks to get more out of the speakers, but high-end caps are very expensive unfortunately.
I see. Well, you can go back and read his take on the TCM VS the Miflex/Duelund. I think it is pretty clearcut. Maybe you can sell the TCM and upgrade?
The Elsinores have had many changes throughout the years. So there will always probably be a new revelation around the corner. Hey, I just learned that the NRX were considered the lowest on the totem pole by Troells! It is just a part of the drill. 🙂
The Elsinores have had many changes throughout the years. So there will always probably be a new revelation around the corner. Hey, I just learned that the NRX were considered the lowest on the totem pole by Troells! It is just a part of the drill. 🙂
So much depends on individual systems and I suppose tastes, so I want to be a bit diplomatic about it.
This usually employs high-order crossovers that I don't favour. LR4 examples I have heard, that sounds very smooth and I also hear an extremely fine grain and the sound just doesn't get out of the box. Maybe that is what you are referring to, that they sound bold.
No, not to any great degree that I have noticed.
I think that I was referring to the bass at the time. It is a touch fuller that MFC which in turn is not quite so damped as ULD. So there are some subtle differences, we have different but selected drivers work in the same box design, which is highly unusual, but it also means that they have slightly different alignments. But anybody here who has heard differences, they are free to describe their impressions. Indeed I urge them to.
Not in this instance. As Troels remarked, it does not have that hard cone signature.
And you get that with all the versions, and I hate any tendency towards artificial brightness, so I get the bold result without being frequency selective, or at least as possible, and no fake lively treble boost.
This usually employs high-order crossovers that I don't favour. LR4 examples I have heard, that sounds very smooth and I also hear an extremely fine grain and the sound just doesn't get out of the box. Maybe that is what you are referring to, that they sound bold.
No, not to any great degree that I have noticed.
I think that I was referring to the bass at the time. It is a touch fuller that MFC which in turn is not quite so damped as ULD. So there are some subtle differences, we have different but selected drivers work in the same box design, which is highly unusual, but it also means that they have slightly different alignments. But anybody here who has heard differences, they are free to describe their impressions. Indeed I urge them to.
Not in this instance. As Troels remarked, it does not have that hard cone signature.
And you get that with all the versions, and I hate any tendency towards artificial brightness, so I get the bold result without being frequency selective, or at least as possible, and no fake lively treble boost.
I had them too, but as I said earlier, I tried them in a 2-Way relative compact 1 cu.ft. box and realised they were doing something that the Elsinores didn't do, and they were fitted with TCMs. That was the first time I heard the Miflex 1.8uF 250V caps. I got another pair and tried them in the Elsinores and I was sold. The TCMs were sold on eBay. Now quite a few others have them fitted, but only one reported no improvement, which I cannot explain. He was in Australia, so I bought them from him. Yeah, they are expensive, but I now can't do without them.
Better soundstage and not just better treble. But I can only express my own preference and hope others benefit from sharing. But yeah, these are not cheap.
you could expedite that undertaking by drop-shipping 8 Satori MW16P-8 to Joe in Australia. It is a paultry $2000 in drivers....
I think I understand why they sound good the SB Alu cone.
Troels experience is very similar to mine, with the same alu driver from SEAS. They sound good in the bass but the mid is fuzzy. An improvement was come from curvilinear cone with a higher breakup 5khz to 8khz. I built the zaph L18 kit, more easier to work with, they have a detailed sound and the clarity is not so good. SEAS stopped this aluminium line of driver. SEAS makes a new range of alu driver TITAN but not have any idea of their performance, the L19 seems to be good below 300Hz according to John Atkinson measurements.
SB Alu seems to have a good work on the geometry and the surface chemistry of the cone. The profile of distortion is good above 300Hz, in the midrange.
Note LR4 design can have as good sound stage as LR2. "the sound just doesn't get out of the box" is a bad design. When I make LR4 but I always stay in the operating range / pistonic range of the drivers. See my design The bulldog and Linkwitz designs. I don't try to convince but just say not generalize, like I have done with alu cone 🙂
Troels experience is very similar to mine, with the same alu driver from SEAS. They sound good in the bass but the mid is fuzzy. An improvement was come from curvilinear cone with a higher breakup 5khz to 8khz. I built the zaph L18 kit, more easier to work with, they have a detailed sound and the clarity is not so good. SEAS stopped this aluminium line of driver. SEAS makes a new range of alu driver TITAN but not have any idea of their performance, the L19 seems to be good below 300Hz according to John Atkinson measurements.
SB Alu seems to have a good work on the geometry and the surface chemistry of the cone. The profile of distortion is good above 300Hz, in the midrange.
Note LR4 design can have as good sound stage as LR2. "the sound just doesn't get out of the box" is a bad design. When I make LR4 but I always stay in the operating range / pistonic range of the drivers. See my design The bulldog and Linkwitz designs. I don't try to convince but just say not generalize, like I have done with alu cone 🙂
TBH, the Satori version will be built as a commercial option and not DIY. Yes, the MW16P-8 would work great. I have already used the MP-19P-8 in a 2-Way, but again not DIY. It sounds great and anybody interested is welcome to come around hear it.
You mean somebody to subsidise the design?
.
You mean somebody to subsidise the design?
.
Sure the MW16P version will be great 😉. I use the MW16P-(8,4) in several designs, this driver is awesome, very easy to filter and has a very good sound.
I wish I had the extra $$$ to do that; and btw, Wagner Online in Australia already has the Satori MW16P-8 in stock, so no need to drop ship from the US, and eight drivers would cost just under US$ 1,500...
No doubt about it. I can get 8 for a little under AUD $2000 as I have an account with WES - have known owner Peter Carlini for 45 years; boy, time flies!
RRP AUD $317.90 = $2543.20 for eight incl. GST.
I can't reveal the exact wholesale price, don't feel comfortable other than saying it is under AUD $2000.
In France with TLHP I can 8 for 895€ ~1600 AUD The price depends on commercial agreement between countries, dealers with manufacturers etc.
We are talking about business.
We are talking about business.
Are you thinking of selling the plans for the Satori version like how you are for your new Hamlet Compact speaker?
Also, do you suspect that the MK6 cabinet would stay the same aside from maybe the speaker cutouts?
I am basically saying to any speaker manufacturer that I reserved this design. It's an invitation because they would want a version that would distance it from DIY and might have an entirely new name. Yes, it could be made in China and yes, I am talking to somebody and it may or may not happen. They could definitely do it, trust me these people could make a really fancy version. This 6.5" driver also come in TeXtreme cone version and I have worked with 7.5" version and got a working 2-Way design. But the Pro version could use either the Papyrus or the TeXtreme version, but of course it will be 6.5".
Well, very cool! I am thankful that you have been kind enough to share so many of your designs to this point. I hope that you are able to strike a deal with manufacturer and make some real money off of this potential Satori version. 🙂
Folks:
Has anyone tried Miflex’s KPAL-03 series yet (https://audiomiflex.pl/en_US/p/KPAL-03/57)? They’re based on an aluminum foil, not copper as in Miflex’s KPCU (-01 to -03) caps. I’m using KPCU-03 1.8uF caps, bypassed by KPCU-01 0.022uF caps, in my Elsinores and would be willing to use them in a Hamlet project which will hopefully launch in the next few months. The KPAL-03 caps are considerably less expensive and I’m curious: do they offer reasonably similar performance at 1/3 the price? Or, are there other 1.8uF caps that offer more magic than the admittedly very, very fine Jantzen Superior-Z caps at less than wallet-busting prices?
Regards,
Scott
Has anyone tried Miflex’s KPAL-03 series yet (https://audiomiflex.pl/en_US/p/KPAL-03/57)? They’re based on an aluminum foil, not copper as in Miflex’s KPCU (-01 to -03) caps. I’m using KPCU-03 1.8uF caps, bypassed by KPCU-01 0.022uF caps, in my Elsinores and would be willing to use them in a Hamlet project which will hopefully launch in the next few months. The KPAL-03 caps are considerably less expensive and I’m curious: do they offer reasonably similar performance at 1/3 the price? Or, are there other 1.8uF caps that offer more magic than the admittedly very, very fine Jantzen Superior-Z caps at less than wallet-busting prices?
Regards,
Scott
Hmmn…. The link shouldn’t include the closing paren and question mark. Like this: https://audiomiflex.pl/en_US/p/KPAL-03/57
I really have to keep my options open at this stage. The Oppo upgrades I did were largely my main bread and butter income, but streaming has taken over. The crazy thing, if you know you are doing, the Oppos are amazing when streaming Tidal and Qoboz. So I have for some time been wanting translate speaker design into some kind of income.
For others reading this, I have been doing (and will be doing) current distortion tests on the four driver we know about. The amplifier used in testing is the March Audio P262 with Purifi Audio 1ET400A Class D output modules. The tests are only done at a nominal 0.5 Watt and a two-tone IMD measurement, the value which is calculated by ClioFW-02 own IMD function. The voltage distortion of the amplifier was around 0.020% - keep in mind that the Class D module is supposed to be able measure 0.0007% 1KHz THD. But IMD measurement (two-tone) and at that low power, that is the reason be see 0.020%. As the power goes up, that distortion would gradually come down.
So in our measurement, the current sense resistor used is a mere 50 milliOhm. So we are actually measuring the distorted current of the amplifier which is caused by the non-linear impedance of the driver amplitude modulating (AM) the current of the amplifier. It is an interesting way of measuring the driver.
The basic result is as follows:
Vifa P17WJ-08 (polycone) 0.799%
SB Acoustics SB17MFC35-8 (polycone) 0.182%
SB Acoustics SB17NBAC35-8 (aluminium) 0.223%
Purifi ULD PTT6.5W08-NFA-01 (paper-fibre) 0.090%
Clearly the classic and much loved Vifa polycone is by far the worst. The Purifi ULD just amazed how incredibly well it did, amazing result.
The question of course is how that translates into sound? But I am of the opinion that it does.
To me It explains that the "ULD" Elsinores are the lowest distortion and has that clear and pristine sound, particularly in the critical midrange. The "NBAC" Elsinores is probably the boldest sounding but surprisingly it has slightly higher distortion, not by much compared to "MFC." The slightly higher distortion I believe is due to the higher mass of the aluminum cone that decreases the electrical Q. The Vifa driver, I have three samples but I am never going to use them, they are like a reference. I have done many tests so far and I have a lot more to do. One is a test that is so left-field that it makes me smile. But I will keep my powder dry for now.
To me, for most people, they should build the "MFC" and use at least a Jantzen Red 1.8uF with the option of Miflex or Duelund 1.8uF IMO. The "NBAC" is definitely an option, lower sensitivity and requires a bigger amp. But I really do like the sound.
So there you are. Full details of all measurements (and how) will come later and in the form of a paper. I also want to measure a Satori driver and I have the 7.5" Papyrus version here. I will post that one soon. Maybe it will measure between MFC and ULD drivers? That is my guess.
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Hi Joe,
Thank you for sharing, and good luck with the commercial efforts.
By any chance do you have a unit of the now obsolete SB17NRXC35 drivers in hand? That would give us a complete picture of the full line up of SB17 drivers that have been used in Elsinores.
Thank you for sharing, and good luck with the commercial efforts.
By any chance do you have a unit of the now obsolete SB17NRXC35 drivers in hand? That would give us a complete picture of the full line up of SB17 drivers that have been used in Elsinores.